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Thread: Initiatives fix???

  1. #1

    Initiatives fix???

    BTW not sure if this has come up but...after realizing the init debuffs are not all stacking anymore, it dawned on me that no mention of mob initiatives being "fixed" goes along with that.

    Remember someone found a hidden init code on mobs and "fixed" (jacked up and raised) their initiatives? Well is this going to be adjusted some with the new initiative lines?

    ***Also posting this in 18.7 forums in case it needs to get beacon warped***
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  2. #2
    Basicly.... they were fixed, and Idea is to make crat less OP and musthave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  3. #3
    Crats after this patch will no longer be kings of init debuffs:

    crat: malaise of zeal is -1448 (also note that as well as the red tapes, workplace depression is -250 NR not -600 inits)

    shade: degeneration of haste is -1500, only 5s dur but 100% to proc

    doc: UBT is -1452
    plus some mean procs, but they are quite unreliable with only 5% land chance.

    MP: desecration of resolve (lol 10s dur) -589
    plus wrath abatement -261

    MA: red dusk -1000 for 20s out of 65s
    incapacitate -1300 for 19s out of 60s
    (which means we could technically get about 35s/60s of about -1k inits with good timing)
    sai fung -1000 for 15s /120s
    bright blue cloudless sky -550 for 40s/180s




    Edit:

    and enforcer who can do 18s/60s with groin kick, and -300 inits for 8s with crush bone (neither are really significant)

    So, it seems to me that shades are actually the best init debuffers in game after 18.7

    But, there would be fairly reasonable capability spread between MP+crat, MP+shade, strong capability between shade+crat, and best burst init debuffing by MA which doesn't really mean much except perhaps if an MA and shade are in a team and the shade has to switch targets or something.

    realistically, though, overall it's a pretty big loss of init debuffing capability, and to maintain the same levels of damage mitigation via init debuffing will take a LOT more effort and significant prof overlap.

    It appears that the crat alone won't be in nearly as strong a position as they currently are, but will still occupy one of the strongest spots because their init debuff isn't so short lived as shade or MP or MA, and doc's UBT won't land on many bosses as it is now (I assume). The crat will probably need to have a partner in mitigation to achieve a similar rate of slowdown of hit delivery.

    I potentially see different methods of damage mitigation come to the forefront, with these changes, notably stunlocking might become a much more valid method of damage mitigation paired with init debuffing and watch ward. Hard to say though.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Oct 3rd, 2014 at 07:09:31.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    It appears that the crat alone won't be in nearly as strong a position as they currently are, but will still occupy one of the strongest spots because their init debuff isn't so short lived as shade or MP or MA, and doc's UBT won't land on many bosses as it is now (I assume). The crat will probably need to have a partner in mitigation to achieve a similar rate of slowdown of hit delivery.
    Considering UBT & Malaise are in the same line, and boss resist is based on nano lines not named nanos, whatever a Crat can debuff so can a Doc (for better or worse).

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  5. #5
    Sorry haven't been following this closely. I have a question though. Crats only debuffs will be the malaise line? So pre 135 there is nothing? On my phone so can't really search, but I'd hope they are extending the malaise line in that case, 25/50/75 etc.

    Will be gutting to lose irt on lowbies
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Considering UBT & Malaise are in the same line, and boss resist is based on nano lines not named nanos, whatever a Crat can debuff so can a Doc (for better or worse).
    I was looking at the testlive version of malaise versus the live version and it seems that it has a 100% Nano Resist check on TestLive and an 80% Nano Resist check on Live. UBT has a 100% Nano Resist check on both TestLive and Live.

    I only did one 12man on TestLive but I recall the crat saying they couldn't get malaise to land. I looked at their gear and the toon was in full alphas, CS/Ofab/etc.. basically a cookie cutter PvM Endgame crat setup. Is that 20% additional Nano Resist check the reason why Malaise currently (on Live) lands on so many things that UBT does not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spead View Post
    Sorry haven't been following this closely. I have a question though. Crats only debuffs will be the malaise line? So pre 135 there is nothing? On my phone so can't really search, but I'd hope they are extending the malaise line in that case, 25/50/75 etc.

    Will be gutting to lose irt on lowbies
    1. From what I can tell, Malaise is the only init debuff for crats on TestLive and it debuffs for 1,448. Currently, crats can use nanoprograms to debuff inits by 2,564 (Malaise of Zeal: 1034, Workplace Depression: 600, Nanite Advanced Red Tape: 400, Normalised Improved Red Tape: 250, Improved Red Tape: 250, Red Tape: 30)

    2. It looks like the level locks on the Malaise line are removed on TestLive. Here's a link to Malaise of Motivation.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Oct 3rd, 2014 at 13:18:37. Reason: Added response to Spead
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    I was looking at the testlive version of malaise versus the live version and it seems that it has a 100% Nano Resist check on TestLive and an 80% Nano Resist check on Live. UBT has a 100% Nano Resist check on both TestLive and Live.

    I only did one 12man on TestLive but I recall the crat saying they couldn't get malaise to land. I looked at their gear and the toon was in full alphas, CS/Ofab/etc.. basically a cookie cutter PvM Endgame crat setup. Is that 20% additional Nano Resist check the reason why Malaise currently (on Live) lands on so many things that UBT does not?
    Nope. The reason why is bosses have a resistance to the `Initiative Debuff` line, but Malaise falls under the `MP Damage Debuff Line A` which they do not have a resistance to. The increase in the NR check will however make a difference, no longer will it be a "sure thing" to land, but might actually require a cast or three.

    Shade procs are also under a seperate line for all their proc nanos to remove potentially stacking DoT/Stun/-Init/Dmg with 4 Shades running a different one each.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Nope. The reason why is bosses have a resistance to the `Initiative Debuff` line, but Malaise falls under the `MP Damage Debuff Line A` which they do not have a resistance to. The increase in the NR check will however make a difference, no longer will it be a "sure thing" to land, but might actually require a cast or three.

    Shade procs are also under a seperate line for all their proc nanos to remove potentially stacking DoT/Stun/-Init/Dmg with 4 Shades running a different one each.
    Ok, well doesn't look like Malaise falls under that MP Damage Debuff Line A anymore. So guess same sorta question. Does that mean that the stuff that is currently not UBTable will now also not be Malaisable? That crat claimed to be spamming Malaise constantly and not getting it to land so it is far beyond a cast or twelve.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Ok, well doesn't look like Malaise falls under that MP Damage Debuff Line A anymore. So guess same sorta question. Does that mean that the stuff that is currently not UBTable will now also not be Malaisable? That crat claimed to be spamming Malaise constantly and not getting it to land so it is far beyond a cast or twelve.
    More things are supposed to be UBTable, as well as NSDable (with the coming changes).
    Whether or not that's actually the case on Test, or potentially just on Closed Beta, I cannot say at this point in time.
    Did the Crat say whether the system message was `countered` or `resisted` ?

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  10. #10
    I think all(or most) boss mobs are still immune to ubt(and now subsequently malaise)

  11. #11
    Thank's waki, I didn't pick that up.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Oct 7th, 2014 at 04:50:42. Reason: spelling

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    More things are supposed to be UBTable, as well as NSDable (with the coming changes).
    This has been my assumption as well but i can't point at any post by devs that says exactly that, it would be really good to hear from FC on this.
    Last edited by Notcrattey; Today at 05:51:45. Reason: Didn't actually edit it, was a mistake!

  13. #13
    Well from my own experience doing collector on test, nothing was able to be ubt'ed or malaise'd.

  14. #14
    Omg, Nerf. 100% NR check is quite hurtsome, right now I strugle to land Malaise on 285 city generals. When I imagine all content going this road it might become a real shocker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    shade: degeneration of haste is -1500, only 5s dur but 100% to proc

    MP: desecration of resolve (lol 10s dur) -589
    plus wrath abatement -261
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    1. From what I can tell, Malaise is the only init debuff for crats on TestLive and it debuffs for 1,448. Currently, crats can use nanoprograms to debuff inits by 2,564 (Malaise of Zeal: 1034, Workplace Depression: 600, Nanite Advanced Red Tape: 400, Normalised Improved Red Tape: 250, Improved Red Tape: 250, Red Tape: 30)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Nope. The reason why is bosses have a resistance to the `Initiative Debuff` line, but Malaise falls under the `MP Damage Debuff Line A` which they do not have a resistance to.
    So if I am reading this correctly, the only way to get current "Live" server lvl of crat init debuffing power on "Test" server is with both a Shade and MP in team.

    On top of that, doc/crat init buffs going into same line? Will they overwrite each other the way MP Damage Debuff Line A did with MP's and Crats?
    Last edited by Psikie; Oct 6th, 2014 at 21:18:42.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    So if I am reading this correctly, the only way to get current "Live" server lvl of crat init debuffing power on "Test" server is with both a Shade and MP in team.

    On top of that, doc/crat init buffs going into same line? Will they overwrite each other the way MP Damage Debuff Line A did with MP's and Crats?
    My understanding is that none of the nanos in the Initiatives Debuff line stack. That would mean that the shade debuff does not stack with either Malaise or UBT. Desecration of Resolve is in the MP Damage Debuff Line B category so I don't believe it will be affected but it also doesn't debuff inits, just -589 dmg, so I'm not exactly sure why that nano is coming up in the init debuff conversation except that it no longer will override Malaise as it does on Live.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Oct 6th, 2014 at 21:57:07.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Desecration of Resolve is in the MP Damage Debuff Line B category so I don't believe it will be affected but it also doesn't debuff inits, just -589 dmg, so I'm not exactly sure why that nano is coming up in the init debuff conversation except that it no longer will override Malaise as it does on Live.
    Good Lord Derp Derp I knew that, I don't know what I was thinking quoting that.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Desecration of Resolve is in the MP Damage Debuff Line B category so I don't believe it will be affected but it also doesn't debuff inits, just -589 dmg, so I'm not exactly sure why that nano is coming up in the init debuff conversation except that it no longer will override Malaise as it does on Live.
    They're all thinking of Wrath Abatement, which currently stacks with crat/doc debuffs on live anyways.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    They're all thinking of Wrath Abatement, which currently stacks with crat/doc debuffs on live anyways.
    Yeah I see where you're going but I don't think that's the case since Wrath Abatement was also mentioned. Must've just been a mistake on the part of Mcknukle (later quoted accidently by Psikie) in thinking that the desecration line was an init debuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post

    MP: desecration of resolve (lol 10s dur) -589
    plus wrath abatement -261
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  20. #20
    My mistake.

    I was looking at both of them on AOitems and must have miss copied.

    I've been doing a lot of inf hards lately in game and in a support/nano skill adding setup on my doc, I'm having a very difficult time landing UBT on many regular mobs - not even boss mobs..

    I counted 7 resists in a row on a kuran -buir spider mob, (I never landed it, I just had to heal instead).

    On spider mishes it's common to get mobs who reisist 4-5 casts in a row.
    sided mobs in general, visionist and the other ones have quite high resist with spiders having the highest.


    From experience, it would seem that if init debuffing is required, there'll have to be a couple different profs involved:

    1. a single shade to STAY on the boss mob (which will further complicate some instances where the enforcer/tank really needs to generate strong aggro, plus handle add aggro, i.e. beast)

    2. an NT and/or crat and/or trader? to debuff NR prior to the crat or doc attempting to debuff

    3. a trader and or an MP to boost nano skills to increase the chance for the debuff to land

    Pointing out the obvious - it'll be highly unlikely a doctor will find time to debuff since he'll be chain healing the tank in absence of debuffs, in most instances I can think of, prior to init debuffs landing, unless there's a keeper in team, some MA's/shades chain stunning the target or other, usually I'm fully occupied healing the tank.

    I did a beast the other day and it took me until he reached about 30% HP before I had a chance to stop chain healing the enf and to a much lesser extent myself... about 6 NCU wipes, a slow crat, multiple nukes plus lack of tertiary mitigation made that run particularly difficult. There's no way a doc could find time for spamming 30 seconds+ worth of init debuffs in there.

    In a way, all this sounds kinda interesting, but at the same time it seems like it could all backfire if team wipes occur faster than mitigation measures can get established.

    Instances like vortex where the boss hits frequently and hard will be technically challenging, especially with the synch/lag between chat and the little fear resist things. In general it seems like stuff that is moderate difficulty will go to insane difficulty, and stuff that is difficult will go to impossible mode. Not to mention trying to find the profs/people to do this stuff.

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