Monthly Development Update - September 2014

[Psikie]

Im going to type this one slowly, so it is better understood...

/facepalm

I can't imagine why any 220/30/70 character would need xp rewards and VPs...

They don't, but since you have been on this thread that is what you have been asking for... "Some reward or incentive" for pvp

/What I want is the same thing pvpers want and only pvmers actually get, a reward for my time and effort in an environment that suits my (and a lot of other people's) preferences..

Now this one is an interesting statement, only because a lot of people log in simply to do social things like GSP parties, should they also get a time reward for effort in an environment that suits their (and a lot of other people's) preferences.

The "avg player" should be leveling elsewhere and pvp zones should be designed for people who want to pvp .

Do you mean designed pvp zones like...arenas? When is the last time you visited one of those designated pvp arenas btw?

Or did you mean "avg player" places where they get the best xp rewards to lvl faster? Like a triple play daily reward that a LOT of pvp players QQ about getting back to make BS more active? Im confused because you have been saying you wanted more activity on BS but now you are saying you don't want the people that would come for the "reward". Kind of an oxymoron there.

by the looks of it you don't want bs to be active so the poor "avg player" can level their alt without interference from those pesky pvp assassin gank machines who ruin their day.

Ah so now you are agree with me that you should no longer go to BS and only go to arenas, will to fight, towers, and political zones that are designed strictly for pvp with no xp rewards so you do not have to be bothered with avg leveling players. That would probably be best for your stress levels anyway. Im sure the BS will have an increase in population, especially if all the elitist pvp players start going to designated pvp areas like the arenas, BS might become more fun for the avg players to want to stick around. WOW what a great idea Paf!

Im glad we cleared this all up, I feel so much better now.

[Cyberleet]

Uhm not true. There were only certain circumstances you could actually pvp originally. Either flagged by guards, in arena, or political zones. Pvp has evolved with the story line over time. Initially it was not ever considered to be a big part of the the game. It was AFTER notum wars did more pvp options became available.

Yes true. Every zone in original AO was considered a pvp-zone. To say pvp wasn't a part of AO from the very begining is false. Even in beta it was pvp and it was aknowlededged to be a part of the game by the gamedesigners. That pvp got it's own boosterpack and expansion says it all rly.

[Cyberleet]

Putting nodrop ai-armor would be a bad idea (imo) since FC sells vp-packages.

I would be tempted to do more BS if the battle kits were usable outside of BS.

And ql 300 clusters, implants etc.

Or they could put hecklers inside that respawn in 1 minute woooot!

The point is pvp should attract endgame characters, not just levelers ffs.

Thats actually a 2-way road. With bs-changes some decided to make level 200-twinks to kill levelers. Then more did it and the level 200's got competition. Then it became a level 200 fight-scene with a few levelers. Whompa-wars also started in a similar way. So some levelers are ok. You gotta get introduced to pvp somehow anyway.

[Psikie]

Every zone in original AO was considered a pvp-zone. To say pvp wasn't a part of AO from the very begining is false.

No again, all cities were 100% EXCEPT Omni HQ, the political zones were far and few in between, a few spots in SWB, Clon****, and MMD that was it. The ONLY time you would have even known about them was doing a mission. It wasn't even part of the advertising for AO until AFTER Notum Wars.

Some RP storyline element way back, changed the gas levels all over the planet making cities 50% or 25% and political zones all became 5% im sure someone could find it in archives. Then they changed to 75%. Again this was around NW time and the game did not start off with much pvp presence at all. Just a few pockets out in the wilderness you might stumble upon when we didn't have dovve maps and clicksaver.

[Traderjill]

Putting nodrop ai-armor would be a bad idea (imo) since FC sells vp-packages.

Funcom sells a lot of things that players turn into credits, including GRACE. So people are already buying ai armor with real life currency through official means.

[doctorgore]

You wouldn't see spam to sell whole sets of css for $150 in OOC if it wasn't a successful economic venture also. The presence of spam reflects success not failure and a robust healthy business.

[Pafpuf]

They don't, but since you have been on this thread that is what you have been asking for... "Some reward or incentive" for pvp

No I'm looking for incentive for endgame characters to pvp. Rewards, believe it or not, can come in forms other than experience and vp. You know, like they already do in pvm.

Now this one is an interesting statement, only because a lot of people log in simply to do social things like GSP parties, should they also get a time reward for effort in an environment that suits their (and a lot of other people's) preferences.

If they feel like they should, why not? That's the community managers' job after all, social events and whatnot.

Do you mean designed pvp zones like...arenas? When is the last time you visited one of those designated pvp arenas btw?

You mean those tiny boxes of nothingness? Hehe yeah content like that sure keeps a person interested! Would you as an avid pvmer enjoy repeately doing a pvm instance where you're in a 30x30m room killing mobs that don't drop any items or grant any reward whatsoever so that after months or years of active /played time in this game you have absolutely zero progress on your character/account? Doesn't sound like something that would keep you interested, does it? That's how pvp is in this game. If you're actively participating in the game's content and the game doesn't reward you for it... what's the point in playing?

Or did you mean "avg player" places where they get the best xp rewards to lvl faster? Like a triple play daily reward that a LOT of pvp players QQ about getting back to make BS more active? Im confused because you have been saying you wanted more activity on BS but now you are saying you don't want the people that would come for the "reward". Kind of an oxymoron there.

Again with the xp dailies, you know there are other ways of rewarding people for participating and simple ways to make winning matter. Not like the current ridiculous xp reward format where people just join bs in hope that it ends as fast as possible so they could save time before running back to borealis. Then I, as a pvper, am resented for appearing in what was supposed to be a pvp-arena playfield where funcom's bad band-aid design force feeds me leveling lowbies instead. Then I have three choices: first would be to leave the battlestation and embark on a great trash-picking adventure in borealis, second would be to run around the battlestation ignoring everyone except other endgame 220s and number three, in contrast to option number two, I could commit the most heinous act of them all which we all know is killing characters who are 1-5 levels or several items behind me and there by their own free will.

Ah so now you are agree with me that you should no longer go to BS and only go to arenas, will to fight, towers, and political zones that are designed strictly for pvp with no xp rewards so you do not have to be bothered with avg leveling players. That would probably be best for your stress levels anyway. Im sure the BS will have an increase in population, especially if all the elitist pvp players start going to designated pvp areas like the arenas, BS might become more fun for the avg players to want to stick around. WOW what a great idea Paf!

None of this is even remotely close to what I was saying nor did I agree with you on anything because you write complete nonsense. First of all I'm not bothered with leveling players, on the contrary I'm the one who bothers them as I'm the one who's on the receiving end of ""****ing ***hole" and similar love messages. Secondly my idea was supposed to have a healthy mix of both "avg players" as you put it and experienced endgame players. Thirdly I don't understand this ridiculous prejudice about elitist players being bad people. After all being elitist means that others consider you to be superior. That means "avg players" would share experiences along side people who could teach them things, and guess what we big bad elitists will often gladly answer any question and provide helpful tips.

The difference between pvmers and pvpers is that pvmers like to fight npcs while pvpers prefer to fight more intelligent and less predictable, more challenging opponents. Does that really make pvpers such terrible people that we should be denied any in-game rewards? Literally none for countless hours of participation in a game we pay for? Is it fair that one guy afking through half an hour of an alien city raid can earn better rewards in those 30 minutes of afking than what I got after years of participating in pvp? Does that make sense to anyone? Is anyone that selfish to think that only pvm should be rewarding and that us pvpers don't have the right to anything?

[Esssch]

No I'm looking for incentive for endgame characters to pvp. Rewards, believe it or not, can come in forms other than experience and vp. You know, like they already do in pvm.

I'm curious about this, and don't really care enough about the rest to even read it, but what do you consider endgame and what do you consider rewards? I consider endgame to be 220/30/70 and geared. Maybe not full alphas, but at least betas and Ofab/DB armor. What does PvM give you over PvP in this instance? Especially with the way the game is run today, both give gear, either directly or indirectly through credits. Both give credits, PvM in the negligible looted amount and loot/lootright selling, PvP in selling VP. Both give social interaction, PvP more-so than PvM these days. And using your own words, PvP gives more of a challenge, meaning it can give more gameplay hours, and PvP gives titles while PvM doesn't. I can only see 2 points in favor of PvM, and that's that the majority of players are involved in PvM primarily and that PvM takes less players to be considered "active". Edit because I didn't mean for this to sound so PvP vs PvM. I would like to know what you'd suggest as a reward, presumably something besides gear since PvM and PvP both already give that.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I've read the arguments here, and it seems to me that Psikie wants incentives, and Puf wants incentives. The only difference is the incentives psikie suggested are not the ones that puf wants.

I think its fair to say that you're both on the same page, but we just need to find the appropriate rewards/incentives to encourage participation not only by endgame people, but by people who are interested in improving their toon/levelling/whatever else.

I think psikie has made a very reasonable suggestion regarding XP stims in another thread. But lets just blow the door open here, why not make two shops:

A yesdrop shop where you can turn in VP for items that the unicorn/battlestation crew has acquired for sale for that day; and,

A nodrop shop where you can turn in VP for items that the unicorn/battlestation crew has acquired for sale that day

And make them change day to day to keep things fresh.

Some yesdrop items could be stuff like:

* sealed lead viralbot container - 30000 VP - random QL 300 lead viralbot
* alpha beta box - 30000 VP
* QL 250/275/300 stim kit x100, 10000VP/12000VP/15000VP
* 2:1 VP to VP transfer kits (pay 20000 VP to get a 10k transferable VP item)
* XP charges (5% capped hit to research and level) x 1 5000VP
* XP stims (50% boost) x5 10000 VP
+ a whack of items who knows... but of variable value, but priced reasonably to keep people interested

Nodrop items could include
* weapon upgrade (50000VP)
* ACDC (150000VP)
* the APF nodrop loots (50000VP)
etc.

This way you can attend BS to get most of the gear you need that's hard to find teams for, or you can buy items to transfer to an alt or sell stuff, or make armour, whatever. The point is though to have stuff that people ACTUALLY want to buy with VP.

[Pafpuf]

All I wanted was for pvpers to be on relatively equal ground with pvmers in terms of time invested and meaningful rewards that will keep a person interested in this game by enabling any kind of character progression. Then I get people saying "but you have exp rewards and titles", lol ridiculous. The selfish pvmers think it's perfectly okay that a character can be fully endgame equipped without doing a second of pvp while pvp will only grant a character a few usable items at best. You can choose to skip pvp entirely in this game and you won't miss out on anything (which is why most of what's left of the playerbase are people with such mentality, the "pvp sux" community). You cannot skip pvm at all (unless you feel like providing heavy support to credit sellers). Let me congratulate you guys on being champions of conservatism and double standards. Maybe you should put that as your forum title so you feel rewarded for the next 10 years haha. I give up.

[Discipline]

Then I get people saying "but you have exp rewards and titles", lol ridiculous. The selfish pvmers think it's perfectly okay that a character can be fully endgame equipped without doing a second of pvp while pvp will only grant a character a few usable items at best. You can choose to skip pvp entirely in this game and you won't miss out on anything (which is why most of what's left of the playerbase are people with such mentality, the "pvp sux" community). You cannot skip pvm at all (unless you feel like providing heavy support to credit sellers).

Someone pointed out earlier that AO is a MMORPG, meaning it's a PvM game first. Like Psy pointed out, the game didn't start on PvP, rather the PvP evolved in time. <- this means the primary focus AO has is PvM. Always have been, always will be (unless it changes into another type of game).
I've read everything in this post and is seems to me that Paf wants PvM but but not actually doing PvM and instead, do PvP. You talk about incentives for PvP that would basically fit as PvM incentives. You said it above: you want equality between PvM and PvP. That will never happen. PvM will always take priority and will always be the main "thing" in AO, for as long as it will be a MMORPG.
Paf basically wants to log on and do PvP like another person would log on and do PvM. Not going to happen.

PvP was and always have been an extra tye of fun. With some in-game rewards here and there. PvP, in my opinion, is based on player's, personal, interaction.
PvM = me vs NPC. <- meaning me vs. the game itself.
PvP = me vs player. <- meaning me vs. another guy, INSIDE the game.

You see why giving those types of PvM incentives to PvP just won't work. Since PvP has evolved and as far as I can remember, PvP "rewards" and "incentives" were based on COMPETITION and respect gained. Ask any old-school PvPer in game what he remembers as far as PvP goes. He'll be like: "s**t man, when 10 omnies raided OA and people killed the s**t out of each-other" / "omg, man, Simplu, Sunhai, Zachamp, Tycot, Cortez, Taticu (and other names i dont remember atm), those guys were pro!". This is what PvP is about: competition - not egoistic competition, but competition -, pride and respect. When you've done the PvM that you need to do, you have 2 options: PvP or do more PvM. If you PvP-ed, then you've entered the competition. (Side note: there is also the lowbie PvP: which, again, means PvM first - level, research, items - then PvP)

This being said and with this in mind, one of the problems I see with PvP right now is the change of title system. Before the change was made, you had emotion. You had action. You had grief, you had drama. "You lost your PvP title. / You have gained a new PvP title. <- this made PvP AMAZINGLY FUN. Now, PvP is basically free farm. You farm 121412432 kills and you've gained a title. Yea, so? You have NOTHING to LOOSE. That doesnt make a man, that makes you a farmer. PvP has slowly started to look like PvM. And it's bad, we don't need more of that.
This "3x daily solution" won't fix PvP. Paf is right to some degree: PvP needs incentive. BUT: the incentive must be PVP type incentive not PvM.

Why do people multibox at towers? For items? For tower fields? For contract?! That's side gain! They multibox for COMPETITION, for DRAMA, for GRIEF! 'cuz that's what PvP IS. Why do people grief towers and then they meep when you show up? So that you get ANNOYED and pissed off. That's why they do it.

1. Change the PvP system in such manner that is based on competition and player interaction (me vs you, not me AND you) and make it so that you can actually LOOSE something.
2. Keep /duel option - cuz it's great - but remove the FREE-FARM-WITH-NOTHING-TO-LOOSE system. Removing the "something-to-loose" made this to be "nothing-to-gain" too. 'cuz how can it be fun to fight for something that you can never loose?
In my opinion, bringing back the old title system or implementing that type of system would fix PvP to a major degree. (Side note: I refer to PvP as general fight of me vs you)
3. Implement rewards based on competition.
4. Bring some changes to Battlestation. The adding of TP buttons was a good ideea: it removed the spawn campers. But add more interaction to it. Someone suggested some mini-missions inside BS, that would be good. As long as the reward is not PvM type of reward.

There's more to say but the post is already long. Over-all, I ask you, from the bottom of my heart, to not bring changes to AO based on the current low population. Try to improve the population and bring changes that would fix the game, not the problems arised from the low population. (what I mean by this is things like "change profs so that all prof can tank/dd/heal, etc. because profs like MP/Keeper are useless - as someone suggested.)

[Cratertina]

pufpuf, good ideas, maybe introduce more pvp gear nodrop avaliable for pvpers only. Also bring in old pvp title system, lock these new lootz to pvp rank.

Devise an exploit proof system for this and profit. Maybe give winning side pvp buffs that last until first pvp death or 4 hours.

There has to be some incentive, Repetative, incentive that rewards presistent pvpers.

Also glaringly obvious.1 pvp twink can take on a team of pvm levelers in decent gear. Give them something to fight with.

We have now 6 TL4 guys who would love to pvp more but are 3-5Billions away from competative gear. By the time they get decent geae theyll ding 151 ane fight lvl 200 twinks, before you know it, pvp is lame anf not their cup of tea.

Id say introduce stat cap for BS. Cap AR, def, heals, etc. Make pvp more accessible.

[Tergx]

an exit that spawns so you don't all have to run out the mission oh wait, we needed that years ago. Better late than never Yeah, that's it.

[Pafpuf]

Someone pointed out earlier that AO is a MMORPG, meaning it's a PvM game first. Like Psy pointed out, the game didn't start on PvP, rather the PvP evolved in time.

Wrong, wrong and oh so very wrong. First of all mmorpg means massively multiplayer online role playing game < does it imply pvm anywhere ? No. Secondly, who cares how the game started. Starting somehow doesn't mean it's a be all end all state, on the contrary there's this thing called evolution and it's all around us. Humans started by using rocks for tools, does that mean we should stick to those methods ? Won't even bother with the rest of your post after seeing two logical fallacies in the first two sentences I'm only expecting that it'll give me a headache.

[Tryptophy]

The difference between pvmers and pvpers is that pvmers like to fight npcs while pvpers prefer to fight more intelligent and less predictable, more challenging opponents.

This isn't quite fair. The reason I don't like PvP is because when a NPC kills me it doesn't start stroking its own epeen and sending me "hahaha you suck f*g" tells. The fact that NPCs are kinda dumb is unfortunate and unrelated.

[Pafpuf]

This isn't quite fair. The reason I don't like PvP is because when a NPC kills me it doesn't start stroking its own epeen and sending me "hahaha you suck f*g" tells. The fact that NPCs are kinda dumb is unfortunate and unrelated.

It's not fair but it's the truth. What you said is just a silly excuse, if you wanted to pvp you could always /ignore those people and you're good to go. But you don't want to pvp at all and that's fine, some people just aren't competitive and feel more comfortable in solo or cooperative pvm content that better suits their expectations when they play this game. But different people have different goals and pvp itself is a goal in this game whether you like it or not. Unfortunately one that was never properly developed (LE was an attempt at creating rewarding pvp but it was just rushed, unfinished content) as it doesn't reward players at all which is, as much as some of you selfish pvmers like to deny, a pretty big reason as to why AO's population has dwindled so badly over the years.

Funny you should mention fairness when you deliberately edited out the rest of the paragraph where I specifically pointed out how unfair it is that 30 minutes of afk farming in pvm can grant better reward than years of active pvping (active gameplay) one can do in this game. That's because you know I'm right but won't admit it.

[Discipline]

No. Secondly, who cares how the game started. Starting somehow doesn't mean it's a be all end all state, on the contrary there's this thing called evolution and it's all around us. Humans started by using rocks for tools, does that mean we should stick to those methods ? (...)

Humans started by using rocks for tools, then they improved their tools. They didn't change what they use to build things, they just improved it. The basis is the same.
Your argument is invalid as it is stupid. This "evolution" you so dearly cling on is based on the psychological desire to be different. Mixed up with ego and pride, you get your mentality. But this is another discussion.

As I said in my previous post, you want to make this game's main goal be PvP. You want to do PvP while having the same rewards as when doing PvM. Basically, turn the game upside down. Which is a bad ideea and it's not going to happen. Well, hopefully. What AO had/has as far as uniqueness goes, are the mechanics, the twinking and the PvP (as it used to be). Bring back the type of PvP AO had 5 years ago and things will improve, drastically.

You're a PvP addict, that loves competition. As you said here:

But you don't want to pvp at all and that's fine, some people just aren't competitive and feel more comfortable in solo or cooperative pvm content that better suits their expectations when they play this game.

But your problem is that you mix things up: you clearly love PvP more than PvM. But you also want what PvM has to offer while not having to do PvM. And you want to mix the two. Unfortunately, they can't be mixed. If they are, then you no longer have PvM and PvP. (This is the evolution you're talking about which is as irresponsible as it is dilussional).

What your "love" for PvP blocks you from seeing is that PvP was a major fun part of AO but what made it that is the fact that it was a bonus, an extra fun - which so happends that for "most" people it was more fun than everything else -, but it always was secondary, not primary. This is what you can't accept. And now, when you want it back, you try to get it back without it's basis. It's like building a house without a foundation. Pretty soon it will collapse. Or it just won't work.

[Tryptophy]

Funny you should mention fairness when you deliberately edited out the rest of the paragraph where I specifically pointed out how unfair it is that 30 minutes of afk farming in pvm can grant better reward than years of active pvping (active gameplay) one can do in this game. That's because you know I'm right but won't admit it.

I never said I disagree with you that pvp should have rewards. I honestly wouldn't mind if they could work out a system where you could level and gear up only from pvping. I just don't know how they could do it without it being abused all over the place. That said, unless the population gets better dividing the playerbase would only make both activities harder.

[Pafpuf]

And you people wonder why this game is in ruins when all you do is trample on every suggestion that doesn't suit your personal preference to the point of justifying fundamental game design flaws that push away a significant part of the online gaming population away from AO. I don't know why pvmers feel so threatened by my suggestions, pvm will still remain intact and exactly the same. Seriously, what's wrong with you people? It's a sad fact that the state this game is in reflects its community to the absolute fullest, the last pages of this thread serve as testament. Very, very sad.

I never said I disagree with you that pvp should have rewards. I honestly wouldn't mind if they could work out a system where you could level and gear up only from pvping. I just don't know how they could do it without it being abused all over the place. That said, unless the population gets better dividing the playerbase would only make both activities harder.

Unless the population gets bigger... what exactly do you think is the point I'm trying to make with all of this? I'm not trying to create a system that will appeal to the 20 remaining pvpers. The current playerbase can't be divided anyway, it's made up of veteran players who have long ago established their preferences. Unless of course when player division means pvpers are forced to pvm to accomplish anything, then everything is perfectly alright and not double standards at all.

[Discipline]

And you people wonder why this game is in ruins when all you do is trample on every suggestion that doesn't suit your personal preference to the point of justifying fundamental game design flaws that push away a significant part of the online gaming population away from AO.

There you have it. Our "personal preference" doesn't fit your "personal preference", so we're wrong, you're right.
Our preference doesn't stand as justification for game design flaws, especially when those "design flaws" are "flaws" because the ideea behind it doesn't fit your own personal ideea of how it should be.

The current playerbase can't be divided anyway, it's made up of veteran players who have long ago established their preferences.

This is exactly why the PvP matter should not be adressed based on the current population. Because the vets already have experienced the game and all it has to offer. And everything that's left for them is PvP. You're one of the vets and all that's left for you - at this right moment, when there is no "new" content - is PvP. And because of this, you want to make the game have it's primary orientation to PvP. Which, as I stated above, will turn the game upside down. I really hope this is not going to happen.

Nevertheless, PvP needs to be adressed. Have it built as real competition, not just farm a number of kills to gain a title that you can never loose.