Who actually wants the rebalance to happen?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ya. thata what my interpretation of it was as well.

I just googled parry:

https://www.google.com.au/#q=define:+parry

And, it basically says to "ward" off an attack.

So, ya, my feeling on it was always that keepers were going to be the parry kings for two reasons:

1. They are strong and agile
2. They have a large weapon already in hand that they could use to fend off an attack.

MA's, on the other hand, along with fixers, shades and advy were more "evasive" meaning to move away from an attack

https://www.google.com.au/#q=define:+evade

evasion is totally different from parry.

You could be good at one, and not good at the other. Like, you could imagine if someone had infinite runspeed, and zero strength, they could be really good at evasion, but piss poor at parrying.

However, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I could imagine a heavily armed swordsman, who is extremely strong, but because of all his armouring is slow - having too much inertia. The swordsman, though, with unparalled skill could easily find a way to fend off blows using his weapon (or shield and weapon) to produce glancing hits or fully parried hits.

An MP, by design, with a large shield, low strength, and low agility, would have a much harder time being either an evasion specialist, or a good parryer. I would rather see MP's "shielding" or using the shield as a full on blocking mechanism.

The interesting professions to me, using this type of analysis are shades and enforcers.

Shades, I feel are "fast" enough, with super agility ratings to produce "glancing" hits, but not nearly as well as keeper.

Enforcers using a 2he/2hb weapon would be significantly better at producing glancing or parried blows than a 1he/1hb enforcer, whom should really only be moderately effective at parrying.

But what about other classes?

MA feels like it should be a good parrier, but, really, only when a weapon or other item is held in hand that could be used to "fend" off a blow. But what about....

The dustbrigade bracers? These items seem like they almost could be modified for MA's to produce defensive armour for the purpose of parrying attacks?

I just don't see "bracers" being as effective as either a large 2 handed sword with sufficient strength, or a shield, or even large bladed axes (AI axe).

If parry is meant to be "deflection" then weapons/shield should be equipped, if it's meant to produce "glancing" blows, then it feels like MA's should only be able to produce this effect vs melee.

[Utopian]

Parry and Riposte are sword fighting (fencing) terms. Both "require" a foil (sword) to be used.

Parry is the ability to avoid the sword attack with riposte being the sword return attack - after the parry is successful.

So, by the strict definitions, you cannot "parry" a ranged attack or a fist attack (again, using the definitions in fencing - who knows how they can be extrapolated).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Parry and Riposte are sword fighting (fencing) terms. Both "require" a foil (sword) to be used.

That's not true.

They became fencing terms, but you could "parry" with a piece of plywood, or a water bottle, should the occasion arise.

I challenge you to a thinking exercise:

If you have brothers, sisters, or ever even went to elementary /primary school, when was the first time you unknowingly "parried" something?

Think about when someone punches at you who is not very practiced at controlling their body in that way - or a drunk person who aims to cause you damage.

Instinctively you move your arms up to either block the hit, sidestep their momentum, or move slightly (AKA flinch) to create a glancing blow.

Flinching is probably the most rudimentary form of parrying but interestingly, flinching is a natural response, and therefore parrying, by extension is the most natural of reactions to something moving towards you that you instinctively know might cause you bodily damage.

Therefore - I assert that fencing is not the entymological source of "parry", I would say that evolution and survival instinct is the root of it.

[Utopian]

That's not true.

They became fencing terms, but you could "parry" with a piece of plywood, or a water bottle, should the occasion arise.

I challenge you to a thinking exercise:

If you have brothers, sisters, or ever even went to elementary /primary school, when was the first time you unknowingly "parried" something?

Think about when someone punches at you who is not very practiced at controlling their body in that way - or a drunk person who aims to cause you damage.

Instinctively you move your arms up to either block the hit, sidestep their momentum, or move slightly (AKA flinch) to create a glancing blow.

Flinching is probably the most rudimentary form of parrying but interestingly, flinching is a natural response, and therefore parrying, by extension is the most natural of reactions to something moving towards you that you instinctively know might cause you bodily damage.

Therefore - I assert that fencing is not the entymological source of "parry", I would say that evolution and survival instinct is the root of it.

I have never parried, as I have never equipped a foil. I have blocked, I have done other fighting defenses and attacks - but neither parried or riposted. (And I have 7 brothers and sisters...been beat up a lot). The actions you describe to fend off a blow have other names (based on martial arts, boxing, etc).

And I do believe FC was intending the actions to follow the sword play (traditional ?) definition since they were to apply it to swords/sword-like weapons.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I have never parried, as I have never equipped a foil. I have blocked, I have done other fighting defenses and attacks - but neither parried or riposted. (And I have 7 brothers and sisters...been beat up a lot). The actions you describe to fend off a blow have other names (based on martial arts, boxing, etc).

And I do believe FC was intending the actions to follow the sword play (traditional ?) definition since they were to apply it to swords/sword-like weapons.

Your argument is flawed.

This is the type of thinking that would limit "driving" to only "cars" because that was the first place you thought of.

I contest this. Appropriately trained people could drive dump trucks, drive nails into a 2x4, or drive a home run, among other things.

I just visited the Wikipedia page for "parry" for confirmation.

Indeed "parry" is fencing terminology because fencers wrote the page. But, nowhere on that page does it suggest that I couldn't parry with my calculator, a ruler, a cake of coke, or a similarly wielded common or uncommon household item.

What differentiates my thinking from yours, is that you base your conception of parry off an established "technique" from fencing. I base mine of the understanding of what the "technique" accomplishes.


From the Parry page on Wikipedia:

Prime - Parry 1 Blade down and to the inside, wrist pronated. Sometimes known as the "Looking at your watch" Parry. Blade points down and "cutting edge" faces away from the fencer's chest side. To stop low-line cut to chest.

What is to stop someone with the appropriate skill to:

Prime - Parry 1 BROOMSTICK down and to the inside, wrist pronated. Sometimes known as the "Looking at your watch" Parry. BROOMSTICK points down.

Or what if someone were to use a packsack, in the schoolyard?

We could write up a whole self defence method of using packsacks to PARRY bullies in the schoolyard. Why? because "Parry" is a verb, and while Fencers would suggest that parrying is certainly one aspect of their defensive toolset, it cannot be limited to fencers.

Do you suggest that the reason AO doesn't have parry in it is because there are no epees, foils or sabres?

(FYI, I just searched "epee" "sabre" and "foil" in auno.org and there are exactly zero weapons that can be found under those search terms.)

[Utopian]

Your argument is flawed...

I have no argument. I am using the well established English meaning of two words relative to how they are used and how they would be incorporated into this game. And how the two words are directly related to each other using those standard English meanings - that is, a riposte is a counter after a successful parry.

I have enclosed the "foil" and "sword" and "sword-like" in quotes to denote that is a term that (for the sake of this game) encompasses many similar items. But all have pretty much one thing in common - they are attack/defend weapons that are wielded by hand - is that better for you?

I would never assume driving is only cars - that would be silly. I learned how to "drive" at a young age....tractors and combines. Then trucks ...then boats ....didnt' drive a car until I was 16 (needed a license for cars, not the others). That is your failed assumption here to try and make some analogy (I assume?). The English definition of driving doesn't indicate the use to a specific "type" of driving. However, parry and riposte do have specific meanings in "sword fighting".

What cracks me up...really...is that you want to banter back and forth about this and all I said was the mechanic was designed for sword fighting (as in AO melee) and not for hand-hand combat (AO has the martial arts definitions for that) or ranged attacks (another group of definitions).

So lets stick to the game and it's mechanics and leave the attempted analogies for another day.

[Wyoming]

Let's stick to Game Language rather than dictionary. Considering Rubi Ka is hardly like Somalia at this point.

Parrying should be usable with any weapon which is capable of it; even a hand movement could grab the hand of the opponent.
These should have decent chances of parrying a special attack:
- Parry Sticks
- Swords
- Axes
- Rapiers
- Battlerods
- Fists
- Spears
- Shields
Because the last time I checked, a shield is designed to block.
All weapons should have a Parry/Riposte check - different in all weapon types.
I believe it should be calculated like AR:
(Parry Skill/25) x % check of weapon. For example, if a weapon has a 50% parry and a 50% riposte check, and 1000 skill in each:

(1000/25) x 0.5
My maths skills may have failed me, but I think that results in a 20% chance of completely blocking a special attack - Ranged specials depend on Riposte, melee; Parry.

[Utopian]

Let's stick to Game Language rather than dictionary. Considering Rubi Ka is hardly like Somalia at this point.

Parrying should be usable with any weapon which is capable of it; even a hand movement could grab the hand of the opponent.
These should have decent chances of parrying a special attack:
- Parry Sticks
- Swords
- Axes
- Rapiers
- Battlerods
- Fists
- Spears
- Shields
Because the last time I checked, a shield is designed to block.
All weapons should have a Parry/Riposte check - different in all weapon types.
I believe it should be calculated like AR:
(Parry Skill/25) x % check of weapon. For example, if a weapon has a 50% parry and a 50% riposte check, and 1000 skill in each:

(1000/25) x 0.5
My maths skills may have failed me, but I think that results in a 20% chance of completely blocking a special attack - Ranged specials depend on Riposte, melee; Parry.

Please, we have to have a definition for what the action is - without one, well - we can go off on walls of text (see the posts above).

Parry is a process to block an attack - riposte is the counter attack by the person who parried successfully. By any meaning it is a direct attack (melee for AO).

The whole premise of a parry is to place your weapon into an offensive position AFTER blocking the opponents attack. They are directly related and you cannot riposte if you don't perform a successful parry. Since the parry is WITH a weapon (again to riposte with if successful), I don't think hands/fists, shields would fall into that category (and there are other defensive/offensive moves for those).

Unless of course we are just changing the meanings of the words to some arbitrary gibberish...not out of the realm of FC....but meh...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The whole premise of a parry is to place your weapon into an offensive position AFTER blocking the opponents attack.

That is NOT true.

The "point" of parrying is to use an appendage, limb, or object, but more likely an offensive or defensive weapon to TURN AWAY some weapon/projectile/object that, if NOT parried, would create impact on your person.

[Wyoming]

Well, for the sake of AO's current Fixer Online status, I'm just gonna put Riposte as a ranged counter.

[Obtena]

Who cares what the definition of Parry is ... seriously.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Who cares what the definition of Parry is ... seriously.

me.

I thought that was obvious.

[Obtena]

I forgot to not be to enigmatic with you ...

You shouldn't care. What it ACTUALLY means and how (if) it's implemented ingame is not relevant. It doesn't need to be.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I forgot to not be to enigmatic with you ...

You shouldn't care. What it ACTUALLY means and how (if) it's implemented ingame is not relevant. It doesn't need to be.

what are you talking about?

You just took obscure to level 220.

[Pinknpinker]

AS for the noob stick, its totally useless after lvl 40(as a uber weapon or any weapon imo) just like solider shotty(try it! you love it at lvl 15) and that other shotty, that crappy pump. Useless in totw at lvl 40. So many good setups out there that ppl dont even try or know about. Like a lvl 25 trader with styg! I think some ppl confuse rebalance issues due to lack of knowledge or experience. Thankfully Ive been inactive in-game when so called game balance issues have taken place place but i shudder to think that I will be in-game this time.

I take that back, i was in-game when they took the Ring of Presence drop(+1) out of Newbie Island because the powers that be said it was causing a Game Imbalance. There are two Newbie Island Boss mobs that are being spawned so far back in the landscape of the docks that they have their own GS (You can still get that ring to drop in the backyards tho! Even after that so called rebalance, a lvl one just had to go to the backyard instead of the island to get one and they are not nodrop soooo it just did not make sense)

Personally, I think the same logic is driving the current situation. It makes no sense at all. It aint broke sooooo dont......yada yada blah blah.

[Wyoming]

Pink, have you tasted a cookiecutter 220?
Something is seriously broken with certain profs; Fixer especially.

[Desdishado]

I have to LOL at the shade who constantly complains about fixers! Like, 95% of all your posts on the forums. That's like a soldier who calls for the heads of all engis and campaigning to reduce them to irrelevance...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I have to LOL at the shade who constantly complains about fixers! Like, 95% of all your posts on the forums. That's like a soldier who calls for the heads of all engis and campaigning to reduce them to irrelevance...

Considering fixers only have one real nemesis, but have 13 profs that they can either rolfstomp or /disco while they try to do something that MIGHT endanger them, I think anyone who says nerf fixers is bang on target about probably the most relevant issue in AO today.

[wonderland]

Oh God, not this again.

I await hearing about how fixers allegedly can crap on most agents they see, most of the time again. Didn't someone say engineers also?

[srompu]

I await hearing about how fixers allegedly can crap on most agents they see, most of the time again.

Where was this thread, and why was I not invited?

Jerks.