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Thread: Proposed Changes for 18.7 for MA's

  1. #1

    Proposed Changes for 18.7 for MA's

    Hi all

    We currently don't have a MA professional, so as the most recent MA professional I'd be happy to start off some discussions.

    First of all, here are the proposed changes to MA's nano toolset which is now on test:

    • Martial Artists have gotten a new nano program called Zazen Stance. (4hr duration, sets nanopool to 1 if cancelled)

    • Martial Artist healing nano program have been updated: The target/team will get a heal over time if you are in the Zazen Stance when executing the healing nano formula.

    • All heals will have a 2 second recharge.

    • Martial Artist Critical increase buff line has been updated with the values from the agent aimed shot line: The highest critical increase value the martial artist will be able to buff their target with is 11 points and the martial artist will be able to buff himself with 28 points of critical increase at the highest level.

    • Martial Artist Fists of the Winter Flame buff has a line cooldown of 2 minutes and now buffs all damage types.



    Those are the summary of major changes.

    Here are some details of these changes:


    Cancelling Zazen nano formula removes all of your nano pool.

    Zazen will [de]crease your Nano Cost (-25%) and increase Healing Efficiency (+100%). It will decrease: CriticalIncrease (-100%), all damage types (350@140, 500@200), Evade-ClsC , Dodge-Rng and Duck-Exp (500@200).

    Casting a single target heal OR a team heal will start a secondary nanoprogram on termination (i.e. instantaneously) which is a Heal over time (HOT); The HOT from the single target nano line stacks with the team nano line.

    NOTE!!!!:The target/team does NOT get a heal over time if you are NOT in the Zazen Stance when executing this nano formula.


    Nano heals no longer lock the MA in recharge and all heals have gotten a line cooldown. This means if the MA has the nano pool to support it, he will be able to heal with the team heals and the single target heals at the same time making him challenge even the doctor when it comes to healing.

    Martial Artist heals will have a high casting cost as a result of this massive transformation and will likely have to focus more on nano cost/first aid/nano delta to make an effective healing setup.

    That's the summary and the details provided.

    From an objective standpoint, the changes are interesting, and Zazen stance looks to be an excellent option for team healing where nano supply is augmented by nano supporting professions.

    However, there are obvious and very serious drawbacks to the proposed changes. The most significant is the cost of healing. Quite literally, you can not afford to make more than 1 heal in a row while not in zazen stance.

    CURRENTLY: At level 150, in reasonable gear, an MA can fight continuously using genius and stims without ever having to sit kit, fighting say, up to 3-4 mobs in a row continuously for 10 minutes plus (I take this to be real since I have done exactly this while doing ravager daily fighting multiple red mobs continuously for the entire duration of the daily, cycling stims/genius to maintain nano as needed).

    WITH CHANGES ON TEST (without Zazen): At 150, in reasonable gear, an MA will run out of nano after two heals, essentially fighting tooth and nail to survive one red mob in a ravager daily. (I was able to kill one red mob before sit kitting to heal nano, but I barely made it)

    WITH CHANGES ON TEST (with zazen): At 150, in reasonable gear, an MA will have approximately 40% of the DPS he did without Zazen running (I'll post numbers when I get home), and can easily outheal the damage of 2 red mobs but the damage is so slow that by the time you get through one, you need to stop and try to recover nano.

    Observations: nanocost is prohibitively high while not in zazen, DPS is prohibitively low, nanocost is still an issue and damage mitigation suffers (lower evades).

    Proposed Solutions:
    1. Lower cost of heals back to original nano cost (to make normal-non-zazen play functional again)
    2. change the nanocost while in zazen to +50% (all nanos/MA attacks/dmg buffs cost 50% MORE than they do normally), keep all other buffs/debuffs of Zazen the same.



    Link to changes document:
    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=611763
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Aug 8th, 2014 at 06:40:36. Reason: autocorrect changed ravager. Formatting.

  2. #2
    The only problem I have with the MA changes is this:

    MoK
    Self Sensory Impr >= 1871
    Self Bio Metamor >= 1871

    As It stands now I believe It's:

    Self Sensory Impr >= 1370
    Self Bio Metamor >= 1370

    So maybe a jump up to 1570 and 1570 would be more realistic. IMO
    Last edited by NayNay9; Aug 8th, 2014 at 16:48:53.

  3. #3
    LOL 1871 SI/BM in order to cast MoK? Nobody can afford that. And nobody can afford to run around with lower healings.

    Running outta nano after 1st heal cast? rotfl, this is so ****ed up.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by NayNay9 View Post
    The only problem I have with the MA changes is this:

    MoK
    Self Sensory Impr >= 1871
    Self Bio Metamor >= 1871

    As It stands now I believe It's:

    Self Sensory Impr >= 1370
    Self Bio Metamor >= 1370

    So maybe a jump up to 1570 and 1570 would be more realistic. IMO
    The reqs are unrealistically high, there's no question. If the purpose was to get us out of NR1 to enjoy the best heals, which is a possibility, then you're right they only need to bump the reqs by 200ish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soliartist View Post
    LOL 1871 SI/BM in order to cast MoK? Nobody can afford that. And nobody can afford to run around with lower healings.

    Running outta nano after 1st heal cast? rotfl, this is so ****ed up.
    The main issue for me is the nanocost. Quite frankly, I don't really care if the top heal is excluded based on a viable PVP setup if the next lowest heal is actually sufficient and allows a comparable setup with appropriate NR/ perk distribution functional for PVP/PVM or whatever... But if you're using the best heal for your level and you can't afford to case more than 1, there is something really wrong with that.

    Again, I reiterate my proposed solution:

    First lower the nanocost of heals back to their regular nanocost
    Second, increase the nanocost modifier on Zazen until the cost of casting heals is consistent with the value the devs want (50%, 100%, 150% whatever).

    The bottom line is, don't break a prof while trying to give them new functionality. If the new functionality doesn't work at first, there's no problem, but if the new functionality is FORCED because of poor math, that's not a reasonable excuse, and will make many people very mad - especially given the number of 150 MA twinks built to solo in S10.

  5. #5
    I remember Genele stating that values were to be changed in case it didn't work out so it seems legitimate to propose something else.
    I also thought that we were supposed to have a HoT on our healings w/ or w/o Zazen running, Zazen granting a certain bonus indeed.

    Meh... bad news "for the moment"
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  6. #6
    heal comparisons:

    Enlightened Healing Touch (Corporeal Ashley Winstead quest, top RK heal)

    COST
    Live: 257
    Test: 1163

    CAST SPEED
    Live: 2.2s
    Test: 2.2s

    RECHARGE
    Live: 8.59s
    Test: 2.0s

    HEALING
    Live: 667 .. 1231 avg = 949
    Test: 775 .. 930 avg = 852.5


    So the big obvious changes are:
    * nanocost up by 4.5x
    * recharge reduced by 4.3x
    * average healing reduced by ~100 points


    For a 150 MA with 1k token board and minimal IP in nanopool (opifex), I have 2551 nano.

    After 1 cast I have 1388 nano remaining (half my pool)
    After 2 casts I have 225 nano remaining (not enough to even cast a fist buff)

    The obvious problem here is that MA's who actually want to solokill, are dependent on 4 things:

    Keeping the DPS up
    Keeping the evades up
    Keeping the HP up and,
    Keeping the nano up.

    The obvious issue here is that if you remove one of these capabilities, the balance becomes very difficult to maintain, but, to nerf healing as well as obliterating the nano capability, it will pretty much make soloing nigh impossible.

    For reference, a neutral MA with the same setup that I have will have just under 1400 nano with a COH collar on, and that will essentially mean they get 1 (ONE) heal before draining their nano pool.

    I just cannot see that this change was intended as such. It is a colossal nerf.

  7. #7
    Not to mention having no crit chance, -350 damage and evades. Would render a 150 ma useless in pvp against anyone. Or just about useless.
    Morine 220 Shade
    Zeus84 150/18/5 Sold

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor84 View Post
    Not to mention having no crit chance, -350 damage and evades. Would render a 150 ma useless in pvp against anyone. Or just about useless.
    the previous post doesn't mention Zazen.

    Zazen isn't actually bad - it's pretty reasonable. I wouldn't say it's "balanced" but that's what test is for.

    Zazen will effectively multiply your healing capability using nanos by 12x

    You got 100% heal eff (doubles your capability), and, each heal does 6 more ticks (x6)

    2x6x = 12x healing

    Then you got -25% nanocost to go with it (note I'm petitioning this to be changed though)

    If you play in zazen, you got great healing, no question, but if you look at the balance I described earlier for solo play you got to keep this balance:

    DPS up
    evades up
    nano up
    HP up

    In zazen, you're far more able to keep your HP up, BUT you sacrifice evades, nano is still gimped severely due to the original nanocost changes, and... your damage is completely obliterated with 0% crit and -a whack of add dmg.

    The balance again is goofed for soloing and there's no way around it. with this change, an MA can NOT solo play.

    I won't say anything bad about the changes because I've been waiting for so long for them and I'm happy they are here, but they do need to be tweaked a bit to make them workable.


    Nobody rolled an MA to become a melee doctor with no init debuffs and no dots and no crits. That's just ugly. So if you can't play MA without a team... what's that mean?

    I'm not real fancy on having someone hold my hand just so I can go kill aliens in S10 that's just stupid.

  9. #9
    Yes that's what I was saying. I did forget to mention the stance but I figured people would get the idea when I mentioned it's negative effects.
    Morine 220 Shade
    Zeus84 150/18/5 Sold

  10. #10
    MA heals are hard on nano anyway. Just given ability to cast them more often already depletes nano fast. Maybe give disharmony nano drain?

    A well equipped MA should be able to cast about 4-6 heals depending on breed. That is when pumping stim kits and such. So you get lots of healing, but very hard to maintain.

    Zazen stance should be balanced afterwards, to give it awesome powers at awesome drawbacks... but keeping regular MA playable.

    Maybe balance it around... nanomage MA can heal forever with capped nanocost, nanodelta and stims.

    And thus make... nanomage MA a wild possibility.

    On S10 note, if MA can pull of 2 heals, there should be a major damage increase to go along with it, so you get this Banzai style gameplay. Either you die, or your mobs die, pull 5 and kill them with 200k damage per minute, or pull 6 and die. Probably very hard to balance.


    Finally how does Deflect play in to all of this? If MA would be able to suddenly deflect a lot of pvm damage maybe playing solo is still viable even with 2-3 casts. But that is a big assumption. When you don't get hit at all no problem, the moment you get hit you are stuck.

    No simple answer there, with evade rework, more progressive dropoff to them working and deflect benefits many many things can be fine-tuned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  11. #11
    How about simply putting Zazen in the Crit buff line and the Controlled destruction line and taking the debuffs off it.

    Second, i had the idea of giving MA's a unique healing capability, a targeted team heal ( healing the team of your target, not your own team) that would make them a pretty nice addition as maintenance healers in raids.
    Last edited by Notcrattey; Today at 05:51:45. Reason: Didn't actually edit it, was a mistake!

  12. #12
    OR just completely forget about zazen stance??? how about that?

    All I want is the non lockout from heal, and 2s recharge. 8.5s has always been a retarded number...keep 2s.

    Don't want them to change anything else about MA.

    It's always been a solo profession, not a second doctor. Adv is the second doctor.

    NO zazen stance please.

    and don't touch the nanoskills, cost, etc, etc on the nanos.....1871 for Matrix of Ka? I hope that's a joke.

    Zazen stance will kill the ma profession completely. Do not put this in live.


    P.S. I don't know how many times I can say this but, Do not put zazen stance in live.
    Last edited by Chewy1; Aug 12th, 2014 at 05:17:47. Reason: forgot.
    Number
    Sliza
    Chewy

  13. #13
    Well, Chewy, the point is, if something works, don't effing break it right?

    And solo MA works very nicely. Hence why I said, don't break MA's in an attempt to give them a broader toolset.

    If zazen introduces capability but completely WTF kills soloability, NOBODY is going to embrace it.

    But, if they leave soloability about the same as before, and then expand our capability by introducing Zazen, then that's cool.

    If zazen isn't 100% perfect, nobody is going to mind. There's always time to sort out the issues, but if you ruin MA's in the process. well F me, that's just retarded.

  14. #14
    I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. I've probably had at least 6 different MA's at every title level. If zazen stance is put to live it will ruin MA.

    So you agree zazen stance is going to completely kill the martial artist profession?

    All MA needs is 2s recharge on heals :/
    Last edited by Chewy1; Aug 12th, 2014 at 06:41:07. Reason: re-read
    Number
    Sliza
    Chewy

  15. #15
    Ok, I'll try to be more clear:

    Zazen is good. [I cannot possibly fault anyone for trying to provide more broader spectrum utility]

    The nanocost on heals has screwed up MA's badly.


    The Dev's need a bit of constructive feedback in order to tweak the numbers a bit - I don't think it's a valid argument to say that "Zazen is going to kill the MA profession". That's complete hogwash. Zazen *should*, if implemented properly, give MA's a chance to play a completely different type of role, one which is both interesting and robust. I absolutely disagree that having options "kills" any profession.

    ************************************************** *********

    I agree that 2s recharge on heals would fix some things, but we wouldn't likely see that change without some other adjustment.

    I'll say it again for those of you who didn't read the OP:

    1. reset heal cost back to original costs
    2. change the nanocost sign on zazen from (-25) to (+50 or more).

    This would fix everything. It makes sense because zazen seriously ramps up healing capability.

    lower healing <--> lower cost heals
    higher healing <--> higher cost heals <--> higher cost of DDing (i.e. with MA attacks, fist buffs)

  16. #16
    There is no way that fc could leave the nano cost changes the way they are in test. Froobs would have no chance of healing.

    A froob would have access to zazen for reduced nano cost, and they don't have symbs to some what help out with nano pool and possible nano delta. They wouldn't have perks to help out.

    Just from the stand point of a froob alone those changes couldn't work.

    In zazen my 150 ma only got 4ish heals compared to 2 while not in zazen.
    Morine 220 Shade
    Zeus84 150/18/5 Sold

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Ok, I'll try to be more clear:

    Zazen is good. [I cannot possibly fault anyone for trying to provide more broader spectrum utility]

    The nanocost on heals has screwed up MA's badly.


    The Dev's need a bit of constructive feedback in order to tweak the numbers a bit - I don't think it's a valid argument to say that "Zazen is going to kill the MA profession". That's complete hogwash. Zazen *should*, if implemented properly, give MA's a chance to play a completely different type of role, one which is both interesting and robust. I absolutely disagree that having options "kills" any profession.

    ************************************************** *********

    I agree that 2s recharge on heals would fix some things, but we wouldn't likely see that change without some other adjustment.

    I'll say it again for those of you who didn't read the OP:

    1. reset heal cost back to original costs
    2. change the nanocost sign on zazen from (-25) to (+50 or more).

    This would fix everything. It makes sense because zazen seriously ramps up healing capability.

    lower healing <--> lower cost heals
    higher healing <--> higher cost heals <--> higher cost of DDing (i.e. with MA attacks, fist buffs)

    Yes I understand you now. I agree with what you're saying.
    Number
    Sliza
    Chewy

  18. #18
    The new nanoskill reqs are just retarded... Even NM MA would need nanoskill gear to cast the top heal. Shouldn't have touched them.

  19. #19
    ya I don't get that. Good call on Garuk 2.

  20. #20
    I made a MA on test with biodome + css mix, support/imps for max nd and pure Bow/Bowspec setup.
    And i have to say i love it. In a 5man team it beats BI spam easily. 3k static def and Unstunnable is just perfect for a pvp healer.
    However the nano skill coast is way too high and i had to run cm for a effective setup. Any nano drain will **** you. And for a non Zazen setup it is impossible to cast more then 4-5 heals without running out of nano, even with the lower heal.

    What i would love to see is a new perk line for Zazen. Some aoe or instant Heal Perks to compete with Doc's and also give BM SI bonus. And of course lower the nano coast for non Zazen.

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