Meta-Physicist NPE Changes

[scrumm]

Why do u complain so much about NSD in pvm...MP's are doing great whitout nsd anyway.
MP's got more then decent dmg(close to soldiers),great surviveability(decent evades,close to NT) and decent-low debuffs for soloing. From my side...MP is doing pretty well in pvm ,why would u need nsd in pvm???.... for team desire?! ffs make ur own team/raid
Look on the bright side! We get 25% dmg reduction(dtp) whitout beeing forced to use shield!!
U just cant have everything ur dreamin'(like shades) ...will ruin all game!
And btw 15s duration whit 1m CD is fair...theyr similar whit NSD removers.
Is balanced like this.
U should focus on other things...like - We cant perk anyone ingame// Unlock Ranger for MP's // Or give us some buffs for 2HB/or bow or AS // Something to remove snare and root from pets and give them atleast 5-10s resistance // Better evade buff //Pet rework.
I consider those more important...
I know that wasnt rly the main target of this post...but srsly...ur wasteing to much time for that subject...*NSD in PVM*

[Psikie]

Then you don't pvp? 15 seconds of NSD in pvp is pretty useless. Very few situations where it is effective. Usually takes over 30 seconds of no nanos before it becomes effective in pvp.

Actually I pvp'd pretty regularly in my time with my MP, having lvl 3-5 in all categories I don't have anything left to prove to myself by padding those ranks.

15s NSD is more than enough time to disrupt a CH/mongo or TMS which is pretty easy to predict based on how close someone is to 1/2 or lower health. Hell even 15nsd to cripple NT's before loading up on nano dmg scourges. 15s that crat/engi pets won't listen if you are faster on the draw... Seriously it's not hard to figure out how lower checks in pvp is a huge boon.

I just will wait to see if nsd/ensd have seperate cooldowns or not.

[Flyingengi]

15s NSD is more than enough time to disrupt a CH/mongo or TMS which is pretty easy to predict based on how close someone is to 1/2 or lower health. Hell even 15nsd to cripple NT's before loading up on nano dmg scourges. 15s that crat/engi pets won't listen if you are faster on the draw... Seriously it's not hard to figure out how lower checks in pvp is a huge boon.

Doctor can easily survive 15 seconds without nano heals vs MP damage. They have very impressive heal perks that work under NSD.

Enfo can easily survive 15 seconds without nanos. Coon/heal perks easily counter MP damage. Usually takes me at least 1 min+ of NSD on an enfo before I can wear them down to kill them.

Soldier can last another 15 seconds without AMS up. Not that it will matter without spec blockers.

If pets are on guard, they will automatically attack you when you cast NSD, before it lands. As long as the engi/crat isn't stupid enough to tell them to attack again after it lands. Crat can easily survive 15sec without nanos vs MP and engi doesn't matter because they don't need to cast anything mid fight.

Traders and NTs are the only professions it could have an effect on.

[dritst]

Why do u complain so much about NSD in pvm...MP's are doing great whitout nsd anyway.
MP's got more then decent dmg(close to soldiers),great surviveability(decent evades,close to NT) and decent-low debuffs for soloing. From my side...MP is doing pretty well in pvm ,why would u need nsd in pvm???.... for team desire?! ffs make ur own team/raid
Look on the bright side! We get 25% dmg reduction(dtp) whitout beeing forced to use shield!!
U just cant have everything ur dreamin'(like shades) ...will ruin all game!
And btw 15s duration whit 1m CD is fair...theyr similar whit NSD removers.
Is balanced like this.
U should focus on other things...like - We cant perk anyone ingame// Unlock Ranger for MP's // Or give us some buffs for 2HB/or bow or AS // Something to remove snare and root from pets and give them atleast 5-10s resistance // Better evade buff //Pet rework.
I consider those more important...
I know that wasnt rly the main target of this post...but srsly...ur wasteing to much time for that subject...*NSD in PVM*

Bump for that
And give tigress mp love!

[Psikie]

Some stuff.

Your experiences and mine are obviously different in these aspects.

But to humor myself I will offer a few tidbits here, doc/agent/advy will have reduced heals from sourges, and lower nano casting ability from dominates. They can't outheal MP dmg, especially tigress. NSD when below 40% and no reset while trying to survive with lower lvl heals that are reduced efficiency.

Soldiers are a standing pincushion without tms, you can let them cast it at start of fight...although many will not, but you should be busy debuffing their dmg anyway enough that only FA makes any dent and when then you hit them with NSD so they cant TMS sit heal.

As far as pets on guard..they would actually attack my pets first and not be able to change targets for 15s...im good with that. After they are debuffed and might not be able to comand pets anyway.

Enfo not being able to rage or challenger at fight start is enough to disrupt any except the top tier enfo's in pvp with my evades to prevent an alpha.

But then again pvp is fluid and different players will use different strategies and of course those tactics won't work on all. But they have worked well enough for me to gain my titles and a nice bank of vp's.

[Xtremtech]

Why do u complain so much about NSD in pvm...MP's are doing great whitout nsd anyway.

I think the point is that FC are changing NSD and have said that they want feedback on the changes, so that they can manage any unintended effects.

Also, when FC released the rebalance nano documents a while back, they said that they were reducing NSD up-time precisely so that they could allow NSD to affect more mobs. A considerable part of the reason that FC is making the changes is about PvM... and so our feedback is also partly about PvM.

Nearly all of the things that you mention as being more important were actually argued for and mostly, they were promised by FC as part of the system changes (aka the rebalance). There is a high likelihood that they will get into game at some point.

But for the New Player Experience patch, which is what we're discussing here, the FC devs have selected a few specific changes that they want to introduce. One of those changes is to the NSDs and so that's what we're giving feedback on.

X

[Gatester]

I would love to see a use for a 15 second NSD in pvp. Other than in group pvp to gank somebody and hope it lands.

If you know what you are doing then 15 seconds is plenty of time.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

If you know what you are doing then 15 seconds is plenty of time.

QFT. and in PVM too.

[Raelil]

So basicly a few things are moved around so its supposed to show a whole lot of change, but in reality its thin air..

Just give us dem pesky pets already, or at the least change the crappy/useless mezz pet into something NOT useless. a secondary attack pet or healpet as has been suggested many times.

[wonderland]

Doctor can easily survive 15 seconds without nano heals vs MP damage. They have very impressive heal perks that work under NSD.

top lel

Enfo can easily survive 15 seconds without nanos. Coon/heal perks easily counter MP damage. Usually takes me at least 1 min+ of NSD on an enfo before I can wear them down to kill them.

I forgot that the intended and balanced purpose of NSD is for it to kill someone as soon as it lands.

Sorry, I forgot that enforcers doing without rage, challenger, or cocoon nano for 15s is worthless.

Soldier can last another 15 seconds without AMS up. Not that it will matter without spec blockers.

TOP TOP LEL

(Okay, maybe if you're bow)

Traders and NTs are the only professions it could have an effect on.

TOP TOP TOP LEL

Holy christ, you are so out of touch it is unbelievable.

Do you even know what nano doctorate is? Did you ever PvP against a soldier or doctor in your life?

If you even use your brain for 10 seconds, you can find rational uses for nanobot shutdown that don't use the crap logic "If it doesn't kill the profession as soon as it lands, it's useless/If it kills the profession as soon as it lands, it's useful" logic. Especially if you remember that these changes are coming with future balancing changes, as people have stated 30 times regarding the boss resist changes, but seem to want to forget when taking into consideration PvP.

The big issue with NSD, was either stupid high check and "Game over" duration/okay cast and recharge, or low check, with stupid recharge/okay duration, along with what perks could remove it (Unless it was nanobot contingent arrest, then it was unremovable and stupid). This combines the most balanced pieces of both.

[Flyingengi]

If you even use your brain for 10 seconds, you can find rational use

Show them to me. Everybody keeps loving to say how NSD can be effective for 15 seconds, yet I have not seen it. I'll be waiting.

[Xtremtech]

This discussion really hinges around people having different ideas about what "effective" means, I think.

There can be no doubt that having a 15s NSD will make some kind of difference to PvP battles, compared to having no NSD available at all. So in some sense, you could view it as being effective.

It's arguable that in some situations, having a 15s NSD might even make the difference between life and death, so in that sense it might be considered even more effective.

But it's also arguable, that in most situations, having a 15s NSD may not make a huge difference to the outcomes of battles - and so in that sense it might be considered to be ineffective.

In reality, all three are probably true to some degree... so the argument is fairly pointless.

X

[Metafly7]

The argument hinges on the creativity people have in stalling the use of NSD untill an extremely vital point in a battle.

If you know you only have 15 seconds of uptime on ur NSD (30 if u use em both after one another) then you just have to get your target to a critical moment in which that NSD is decisive for the outcome of the battle. In order to get to that critical moment you will need to use -Heal%/-Nukedamage% or Dominates/Damage debuffs/Even stuns to bridge the way untill that moment.

There are so many debuffs Mps have that get snowed under because of the stupid ease of just hitting the NSD button, its sad and it doesnt require intellect

Btw i do think most here are intelligent seeing the way we can have civilized conversations in our parts of the forums

[Flyingengi]

The argument hinges on the creativity people have in stalling the use of NSD untill an extremely vital point in a battle.

If you know you only have 15 seconds of uptime on ur NSD (30 if u use em both after one another) then you just have to get your target to a critical moment in which that NSD is decisive for the outcome of the battle. In order to get to that critical moment you will need to use -Heal%/-Nukedamage% or Dominates/Damage debuffs/Even stuns to bridge the way untill that moment.

There are so many debuffs Mps have that get snowed under because of the stupid ease of just hitting the NSD button, its sad and it doesnt require intellect

Btw i do think most here are intelligent seeing the way we can have civilized conversations in our parts of the forums

As far as I know, both NSD's will be on the same lockout. You can only use one.

How many things that have to go right in order for me to even try to get my perk alpha to kill somebody under a 15 second NSD is extremely unlikely to pull off. Here is how long it takes me to pull off my perks from start to finish:

Dazzle (2s) -> Combust (3s) -> Thermal (3s) -> Quark Containment Field (3s) -> Hostile Takeover (2s) -> [Now the actual damage starts] -> Supernova (4s - 2k dmg) -> Accelerate Decaying Quarks (1s - 1.2k dmg) -> Chaotic Assumption (2s - 2.25k dmg) -> Nano Feast (1s - 1.75k dmg) -> Bot Confinement (2s - 1k dmg)

23 seconds to execute my perk alpha from start to finish. Roughly 8k pvp damage. In order to pull this off mid NSD, NSD must be cast AFTER the perk chain has been started and it must land. If NSD doesn't land, it doesn't work. Then you have to wait 2 minutes for perks to be back up again. Oh, and all of this has to be done in perfect timing. And you have to know 10 seconds in advance of when your opponents HP will be low enough for this to work.

[Psikie]

As far as I know, both NSD's will be on the same lockout. You can only use one.

How many things that have to go right in order for me to even try to get my perk alpha to kill somebody under a 15 second NSD is extremely unlikely to pull off. Here is how long it takes me to pull off my perks from start to finish <stuff>.

Well there is the problem there. You think MP's have an alpha lol. We wear targets down over time not alpha them. No you won't be killing anything in 15s, if that is what you are aiming for you should reroll enfo, sol, or shade.

NSD will be timing based on WHEN to cast in pvp but with increased chance to land. Not a bad tradeoff.

Worse is the situational chances in pvm when it "would" be effective. Again I can not stress the fact that if more mobs will be affected by NSD that the 15s timer and cooldown is kinda silly useless. UNLESS we can use it to REMOVE effects like shields in addition to preventing nano attacks. Or have some verbal que as to when certain effects would be cast so we can use NSD at least 1x during the encounter with effect.

[Flyingengi]

Well there is the problem there. You think MP's have an alpha lol. We wear targets down over time not alpha them.

And you think you can wear down anything on an MP at 220? That's even more laughable. It's hard enough as is to survive long enough to kill any decent targets. Once spec blockers are gone, we will die even faster. Maybe, just maybe, once AS/FA get somewhat of a nerf and other professions get nerfed too...we might might have a chance.

[Psikie]

And you think you can wear down anything on an MP at 220? That's even more laughable. It's hard enough as is to survive long enough to kill any decent targets as is. Once spec blockers are gone, we will die even faster. Maybe, just maybe, once AS/FA get somewhat of a nerf and other professions get nerfed too...we might might have a chance.

I dont know if I should be insulted or just facepalm. My solo and duel rank alone say my tactics work plenty fine. Most people on this forum understand MP weaknesses and we also know the situations where we have strengths. All fights are not black and white timing, skill, and sometimes luck all can come into play. MP's have a lot of tricks in their bag along with simple rk devices like blind rings or root/reflect grafts all can have a huge impact on fights.

If you want to just complain that is your right but be constructive here not defeatist please. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. So instead of worrying about 15s of nsd...which from the sound of your posts you could not even land current nsd, you might offer some alternatives for a dev. I don't have the willpower or desire to teach you how to pvp with an MP. MP's that do pvp must be naturally creative to have continued success beyond shield or tigress/ss.

[Raggy]

Changes look nice.

I'd still like MP Debuffs to be separate from the Crat ones though.

[Flyingengi]

My solo and duel rank alone say my tactics work plenty fine.

Just because you pick and choose who to fight means nothing.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

I've offered WAY more than my fair share of solutions to the MP problem.

So instead of worrying about 15s of nsd...which from the sound of your posts you could not even land current nsd, you might offer some alternatives for a dev.

We aren't talking about current. Current means nothing. Currently, I can eventually get NSD to land and not be removed and actually kill some of the harder tl7 professions to kill like enfos, docs, and crats. But not with eNSD or this change we are getting.

I don't have the willpower or desire to teach you how to pvp with an MP.

Get off your high horse. You can't have a discussion without using unfounded personal attacks? I've destroyed people at tl2, tl3, tl5, and tl7 as an MP. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. We are here to discuss facts, not your opinion of what I might be. I asked for anybody to show me any way in which a 15 second NSD every 1 minute could be useless in PvP and more effecting than alternative buffs that could being used. I have yet to see one example.

Please, show me an example.

[Psikie]

Please, show me an example.

So just looking back and without writting a how to guide here's a few ideas that you don't even have to read between the lines for...

Thats why youd be using it in a smarter way, only in zerg situations or waiting untill the last moment where you most likely think that person would use something that changes the battle (Heal/Meep/whatever)

15s NSD is more than enough time to disrupt a CH/mongo or TMS which is pretty easy to predict based on how close someone is to 1/2 or lower health. Hell even 15nsd to cripple NT's before loading up on nano dmg scourges. Seriously it's not hard to figure out how lower checks in pvp is a huge boon.

But to humor myself I will offer a few tidbits here, doc/agent/advy will have reduced heals from sourges, and lower nano casting ability from dominates. They can't outheal MP dmg, especially tigress. NSD when below 40% and no reset while trying to survive with lower lvl heals that are reduced efficiency.

Soldiers are a standing pincushion without tms, you can let them cast it at start of fight...although many will not, but you should be busy debuffing their dmg anyway enough that only FA makes any dent and when then you hit them with NSD so they cant TMS sit heal.

Enfo not being able to rage or challenger at fight start is enough to disrupt any except the top tier enfo's in pvp with my evades to prevent an alpha.

The argument hinges on the creativity people have in stalling the use of NSD untill an extremely vital point in a battle.

In order to get to that critical moment you will need to use -Heal%/-Nukedamage% or Dominates/Damage debuffs/Even stuns to bridge the way untill that moment.

There are so many debuffs Mps have that get snowed under because of the stupid ease of just hitting the NSD button, its sad and it doesnt require intellect

Btw i do think most here are intelligent seeing the way we can have civilized conversations in our parts of the forums

Now aside from pvm randomness, what you SHOULD be complaining about is loss of blockers in pvp not 15s nsd. Or even argue for reduced def check on NSD to 50% for reduced up time.