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Thread: Disharmony

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Sorry, i thought you said competetive without swapping.

    This would not be competetive, 10% improvement from awful is still awful. Pointless effort, basically.

    Sadly there's no easy way to make "MA Troa'ler Pistol" , aka, something that mantains relative power level while moving the profession into "FC approved" weapon line instead of using obscure RK/SL weapons.

    If its not on the level of what good swapping player can do, competetive players wont make the switch making the whole thing pointless. If it is competetive but removes all the timing/skill/lag/luck mixture from the equation, it'll be crazy overpowered.
    That is what I meant. Competitive without swapping.

    It's not hard, you just have to build the weapons so that they can't be swapped easily. Besides, there are some around that fit the description.

    If you make the equip time on two upgraded bobs about 3.5+ seconds each, it's a wasted effort to swap them because the damage done while using them would out damage the damage done while swapping.

    Either that or make the IP expenditure to use them reliably high enough that there's not enough IP to IP the "extras" needed for swaps.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    That is what I meant. Competitive without swapping.

    It's not hard, you just have to build the weapons so that they can't be swapped easily. Besides, there are some around that fit the description.

    If you make the equip time on two upgraded bobs about 3.5+ seconds each, it's a wasted effort to swap them because the damage done while using them would out damage the damage done while swapping.

    Either that or make the IP expenditure to use them reliably high enough that there's not enough IP to IP the "extras" needed for swaps.
    Just make all weapons in the game lock when in combat. There, no hot swapping needed for anyone. Then talk about balance. Lot easier to balance profs if each is using one weapon at a time than if you have to account for however many they're swapping in and out.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Phixalicious View Post
    Just make all weapons in the game lock when in combat. There, no hot swapping needed for anyone. Then talk about balance. Lot easier to balance profs if each is using one weapon at a time than if you have to account for however many they're swapping in and out.
    How about armour?

    This isn't a bad mechanic, but I can foresee uproar about it. I'm kind of fond of it because it means you have to stick with your best "guess" at overall fight survival and counter to your opponents strenghs.

    I don't mind it, but it does kind of put a damper on one aspect of combat.

    The weapon thing is more complicated, though. The problem for MA's isn't that a swapped weapon isn't good - obviously it is, otherwise MA's wouldn't swap, the problem is that no weapon that we swap to is RELIABLY good enough for continued use. Furthermore, NONE of the weapons available to MA's currently are capable of providing enough offense to kill any prof in game, with the exception of agents under red dusk, with the currently available specials (brawl, fast attack, dimach)

    Until we get sneak attack, it's all just fluff and PVM bullsh*t. And, realistically, everyone and his dog knows that everyone using SA right now is complaining that SA is garbage compared to AS.

    So, while MA's and keepers have been fighting tooth and nail to get access to even the sh*tty PVP specials, the profs with access to them are complaining that they just don't cut it. (note some melee advy threads lately complaining of 40s recharge times on hatred SA)

    So, there you go.

    And MA's are even getting nerfed again lately. hurrah.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    If you make the equip time on two upgraded bobs about 3.5+ seconds each, it's a wasted effort to swap them because the damage done while using them would out damage the damage done while swapping..
    Not when its unreliable regulars vs. special attack with guaranteed capped hit its not.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    (note some melee advy threads lately complaining of 40s recharge times on hatred SA)
    Melee Advs still need a large nerfbat up their anus. Unfortunately if you keep overpowered BS around for long enough, people start to think its normal or even expected.
    Last edited by IHaveHugeNick; Jul 23rd, 2012 at 05:04:11.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Not when its unreliable regulars vs. special attack with guaranteed capped hit its not.
    If FC wanted to make some new BoB unswappable they could just go for 10+ seconds swap time, dunno why the guy before suggested just 3.5 seconds.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Not when its unreliable regulars vs. special attack with guaranteed capped hit its not.
    How unreliable are we talking here?

    Lets not get into too much arm waving arguments, and lets just make it simple, as phixalicious suggested, and make weapons locked (for the sake of the argument).

    Now, how many "unreliable" regulars do MA's need to make up for one ***potentially capping, but 100% to hit*** special?

    Note the stars, because, even with a scope in, there is still a fairly high chance that an AS (for example) won't triple+ crit and therefore won't cap, on many targets. TBH, in all the times I've used Sapphistic bow, I don't think I've ever had a "true" cap on an enforcer/whoever with 30+k HP, which would be 13k*(1-(0.03+0.13)) = 10920 damage



    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Melee Advs still need a large nerfbat up their anus. Unfortunately if you keep overpowered BS around for long enough, people start to think its normal or even expected.
    I do agree, but, aiming at melee advies for "relative strength" is not a bad start for balancing.

    I certainly don't want MA's at the ranged advy level. F*ck that. If MA's were that OP'd I'd have to reroll, otherwise I wouldn't have anythign to talk about on forums. I'd just have to play AO... what would I do during work hours then?


    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    If FC wanted to make some new BoB unswappable they could just go for 10+ seconds swap time, dunno why the guy before suggested just 3.5 seconds.

    fair enough, my point was though, that just off the top of my head, 2x 3.5 second swaps is about 14 seconds of non-ideal swap time, overwhich you can get about ~10ish attempts at a normal hit in and, if you think in a worst case scenario, say, vs a crat with ALL evade perks up, you hit only 1 time (10% hit rate) and do 2000 damage, vs an AS which might hit for 3k thats not bad, but, for most other profs you'd probably hit at least 50% or so for 5 hits at say, an average of 2000 per hit, for 10k damage over that period of required swapping.

    Personally, I'd take the 5x hits even if none of them crit as it's more chances for procs, and less chances for fouled up mechanics.

    The problem is, obviously, though, over the duration of a fight, MA's can't survive long enough with high enough AR setups to GET to the place where the regulars start to matter. With ALL def CD's up, you can vs some profs.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    How unreliable are we talking here?
    Thats the thing - if it'd be reliable enough to have competetive chance vs. evade classes, the regulars would chain land on everybody else. Now, AS or SA/AS isn't just extra 6k damage each few dozen seconds, its a reliable spike damage that benefits from proper timing when used in a combo. So throw in major damage increase needed to make up for lack of swaps, and you're looking at a class that tears everybody apart with afk+q /follow.

    As you see, it really just cant be done, at least not with Troal'er style band-aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    I don't think I've ever had a "true" cap on an enforcer/whoever with 30+k HP, which would be 13k*(1-(0.03+0.13)) = 10920 damage
    It can hit in 10k ranges pvp damage, although admitedely if target has reflect it is rather uncommon so you hit the 22% cap or whatever it is.


    Also, even 10s swap time is situationally useful - you're not always fighting toe to toe. Sometimes you are rooted, sometimes you're in pursue , and sometimes you're drained to oblivion and swap to bow that doesn't go OE.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Thats the thing - if it'd be reliable enough to have competetive chance vs. evade classes, the regulars would chain land on everybody else. Now, AS or SA/AS isn't just extra 6k damage each few dozen seconds, its a reliable spike damage that benefits from proper timing when used in a combo. So throw in major damage increase needed to make up for lack of swaps, and you're looking at a class that tears everybody apart with afk+q /follow.

    As you see, it really just cant be done, at least not with Troal'er style band-aid.
    I'm not sure what you're saying. You're mixing apples and oranges. you're saying it can't be done, and yet referencing something that has been done, which has the same effect. So you're saying MA's shouldn't have it because it's OP'd even though other classes have something more OP'd? I don't understand.

    However SA is used, will be exactly the same as it's used now.

    MA's have access to SA every 40 seconds. But MA's also have access to AS.

    So, obviously, the balance has to be in offseting the damage gained from AS with weapons which can be used while not swapping, ie. the triple attack bars.

    It's really not that hard, the idea I had makes perfect sense: lower the min and max damage slightly to lower overal damage done during normals.

    But, I'm starting to think it should actually be just as high as it is on a shen stick/kuma tonfa. Becaseu we have to offset against a 100% to hit special tht CAN cap.






    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    It can hit in 10k ranges pvp damage, although admitedely if target has reflect it is rather uncommon so you hit the 22% cap or whatever it is.


    Also, even 10s swap time is situationally useful - you're not always fighting toe to toe. Sometimes you are rooted, sometimes you're in pursue , and sometimes you're drained to oblivion and swap to bow that doesn't go OE.
    maybe. w/e it's not really relevant except to understand how much damage we should potentially try to make up.

    10k/10 seconds = 1k/s.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    You're mixing apples and oranges. you're saying it can't be done, and yet referencing something that has been done, which has the same effect.
    It cant be done for MAs. Because - this is going to shake your world - not all professions are the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    However SA is used, will be exactly the same as it's used now.
    Er, no. Swap is burst damage. Regulars are constant damage. Losing a combo that can potentialy take half of someone's HP is a lot bigger deal and it needs that much xxx dps per minute to compensate whatever.

    You cant just go "AS does on average 7k pvp damage /11 seconds so lets upscale weapons to do same damage over time". Well you could but its going to blow hard.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    It cant be done for MAs. Because - this is going to shake your world - not all professions are the same.


    Er, no. Swap is burst damage. Regulars are constant damage. Losing a combo that can potentialy take half of someone's HP is a lot bigger deal and it needs that much xxx dps per minute to compensate whatever.

    You cant just go "AS does on average 7k pvp damage /11 seconds so lets upscale weapons to do same damage over time". Well you could but its going to blow hard.
    Sorry, but you can.

    And FC already DID.

    And yes. It "blows hard" for every prof not using pistols.

    So, you're saying: We all got OP weaps, and it didn't work, so lets not give a UP prof OP weaps because it might OP them?

    FU. go gimp a diff prof.

  11. #91
    So btw,

    Thanks to FC's changes to keybinding, it is much easier to execute swaps nowadays then it used to be, i think. I wasn't swapping with the old keybinds, but lately i have set up up to 4 weapons swap using 3 buttons. This also fire the perk chain and 8 specials. I couldn't imagine what mess that woul have means in term of execution, in the old days, apart from using 3rd party macros.

    It seems even easier to swap as a MA then it is for an agent, since apparently you messing around with lot less equip time given today's typical MA's weapon rack (but i don't know how MA special attacks works in relation to swaps).

    Ain't swaps easy enough today to consider em perfectly valid and accessible to a large enough playerbase ? ie, focus on the rest of the issues listed instead of weapon's problematic ?

  12. #92
    Good question. But, MA swapping in combat is really only a viable option in the immediate (relative proximity) to the servers (several thousand kms). outside of that, or, more specifically, some number of telecom companies and communication hubs distant, it becomes less as less a reliable option.

    Hence, you go to the other side of the world (china, australasia, NZ, even south america and south africa to some extent) and you start having REALLY inconsistent latency, unreliable packet loss, which often results in missed swaps and ultimately unplayability issues.

    hence, swaps are good if you're in western europe, eastern USA, but outside of that it gets worse and worse.

    I used to live in vancouver, Canada, and swaps would take about 0.8-1.5 seconds to complete, and they were quite reliable. Now, living in brisbane, Australia, swaps take a minimum of 3.5 seconds, and have fairly frequent mis-fires.

    What that means, overall is that player capability is inherently limited by a situation outside his/her control.

    Which means basically, a few things. for one, you can never counter MR alphas because it takes at LEAST 3-4 seconds for you to get the update that your opponent has used MR. Another thing is that you're never in range of a kiting target that continually moves if youre a melee class, ever. it also means every single time dependent swap takes up to 80% more time than for anyone else, depending on the special used. for example, aimed shot recharge is 11 seconds+3.5 seconds swap time+3.5 seconds swap time back to fists. hence, 18 seconds to get an AS off vs. 11 seconds +1s execution time for other people closer to servers.

    maybe it's time to go back to star wars. Servers in Sydney are pretty nice. Instead of 350ms-1500ms latency I'm getting 43ms latency on those servers.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    for example, aimed shot recharge is 11 seconds+3.5 seconds swap time+3.5 seconds swap time back to fists. hence, 18 seconds to get an AS off vs. 11 seconds +1s execution time for other people closer to servers.
    I don't understand, ain't you swapping a 0.1 sec bow ?

    Now, try binding to the same button, on a single hotbar, in that order, AS, Saph bow (swap in/out), the system should try to execute the action in the order of the hotbar (if it doesn t pick an other hotbar). Double tap the bind, 1st tap should say AS ain't available, then swap in the bow, and 2nd tap should fire AS, and swap out the bow. Within 0.5 seconds.

    Even if you lag, i believe your client will still send the info in the correct order, keeping the chain of events. Which means that even if the whole thing is delayed, it should limit missfiring. Need to experiment and test a bit with keybinding beforehand tho.

    You could try to use Belith's bow which has no swap time at all too (not even 0 seconds), and set it up on the hotbar : Bow, AS, Bow. With a single button press. Hoping it take in count the order right. It should. Could result in swapping bow in, ASing, and swapping it out instantly.

  14. #94
    sounds cool. I've binded keys for pvp back in canada, but haven't done so since about 2 years ago when I equiped duel shens for pvm and pretend pvp.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Sorry, but you can.

    And FC already DID.

    And yes. It "blows hard" for every prof not using pistols.

    So, you're saying: We all got OP weaps, and it didn't work, so lets not give a UP prof OP weaps because it might OP them?

    FU. go gimp a diff prof.
    Rageville ---> that way.

  16. #96
    Burst damage kills people, constant damage will also kill people once def CD's are used up.

    So, if SA swap and AS swap is burst damage how is waiting for a crit then poping SA, dimach not burst damage?

    it's not particularly difficult. in fact, FC has been leaning in this direction for years:

    Provide offensively inept professions with a 100% to hit special that allows them to contribute in tab'n'spam PVP regardless of their 2800 AR that couldn't hit non evade profs (like enforcer).

    The obvious problem is that swapping has and always will add the unintended consequence of potentially MUCH higher than expected burst damage, while at the same time limiting many people based on a proximal relation to servers. What that means is that anyone within a regional area will completely dominate using that type of attack method, while anyone else will have to suffer through inability to use a functionally superior attack method while as well havign to grapple with those potentially life threatening attacks being executed in a period of time prior to when they have even got a message saying they've taken damage.

    Alternatively, And, this is in general what all MMO's do, is reign in the free radicals (the close proximity hotswappers making use of non-global CD attacks) by imposing clearly defined limits on potential damage.

    A couple of ways this can be applied is:
    1. global CD's on specials
    2. global CD's on attacks
    3. reasonable weapon choices so people aren't exploiting obscure historic weapons with lack of equip time to increase their burst damage in the same amount of time that it takes most people to blink
    4. providing access to good specials through regulated mechanics so offense can be controlled by server side metrics

    These aren't "ahmg technology of teh futurz" This is standard stuff that FC has used for many professions but MA has somehow fallen through the cracks. Obviously, there has been some discussion recently with the addition of the kuma tonfa and fast attack, but, realistically it's woefully pathetic given the dark blue IP line for fast attack, and the completely inept special that fast attack is.

    Realistically, if somebody said: now, MP's will have access to FLING SHOT! nobody would even bat an eyelid, it wouldn't even get a post in the forum, heck, MP's probably wouldn't even IP it, because it's such a sh*t special. Well guess what? Fling shot is a hell of a lot better than fast attack, because fast attack has a range of 2-4 m, while fling has a range of 20-40m

    So there you go, while PVM MA's were all chuffed on Fast attack for the 45 seconds after they got their first fuma tonfa on, everyone else scoffed and giggled because everyone knows, that melee specials suck goat balls unless you've got sneak attack, and even THEN, you're still relegated to a 40s recharge as opposed to 11 seconds.

    Does anyone even PVP with an melee prof anymore?

    The only melee profs I ever see at war are my engineers pets. Hell, even my pets got a WTF way better dmg proc than MA's. My pets have masters bidding. My engi's pets OD my duel shen MA at towers on PVT. How embarrassing is that? Worse yet, my pets get more kills because they have a SNARE. LOL. MY MA is limited by every single mechanic in AO, while my engies pets actually utilize two of the best.

    MA's need a lot of love. It's not even worth arguing about.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Jul 25th, 2012 at 00:51:38.

  17. #97
    How is converting from AS with RK weapon>AS with FC approved LoX weapon any way similar to converting special attack combo>damage based on regulars?

    Its a complete different thing, which is why first one was possible to balance and the other is not.

    If you make regular hit based setup that has damage comparable to hotswap setup , takes no skills or timing and is competetive against evaders , this same setup will chain-hit non-evade classes and damage of that potential consistently delivered will rip everybody apart.

    For a practical example, if you can kill Adv with regulars even though he will evade a lot of hits , you're going to roll over everything. It is impossible to balance , unless after rebalancing in 2029 when they rework all defenses or whatever.

    Anything done now is either going to suck ,or be too overpowered. If you want to keep asking for something that will suck, knock yourself out, i'm out of this party.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    How is converting from AS with RK weapon>AS with FC approved LoX weapon any way similar to converting special attack combo>damage based on regulars?

    Its a complete different thing, which is why first one was possible to balance and the other is not.

    If you make regular hit based setup that has damage comparable to hotswap setup , takes no skills or timing and is competetive against evaders , this same setup will chain-hit non-evade classes and damage of that potential consistently delivered will rip everybody apart.

    For a practical example, if you can kill Adv with regulars even though he will evade a lot of hits , you're going to roll over everything. It is impossible to balance , unless after rebalancing in 2029 when they rework all defenses or whatever.

    Anything done now is either going to suck ,or be too overpowered. If you want to keep asking for something that will suck, knock yourself out, i'm out of this party.
    Don't give up! I think we're finally getting somewhere!

    "How is converting from AS with RK weapon>AS with FC approved LoX weapon any way similar to converting special attack combo>damage based on regulars? "

    To address this first, its similar, because you're missing one KEY component:

    special attack combo>damage based on regulars
    special attack combo>damage based on regulars+ special attack

    The point is that they are the same, or close to the same as
    AS with RK weapon>AS with FC approved LoX weapon

    Because
    1. AR vs evades can be controlled
    2. AR vs absorbs can be controlled
    3. AR vs reflects can be controlled
    4. AR vs heals can be controlled
    5. the special attack can be controlled by the damage range and critical damage on the weapon of choice.

    Sure, not all profs are fixers and crats and advies, but, those who don't have evades aren't just defenceless leets. Just for argments sake, just how easy do you think it is to take down a doctor using normals+perks?

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Just for argments sake, just how easy do you think it is to take down a doctor using normals+perks?
    Assuming its enough to have competetive chance with regular hits versus Adv who has reflects , absorbs , evades , two heal lines, perk heals and 15k perk hot? Yeah i would say the Doc would have to die fairly easy

    It just cant be done with simply new weapon. Maybe one possibility would be to make all specials be a 100% hit again - which personally i think they should, because whats the point of special attack if it cant land? But as MA is evade class as well, it may as well horribly backfire the way AS pistols have backfired for Engineers.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Assuming its enough to have competetive chance with regular hits versus Adv who has reflects , absorbs , evades , two heal lines, perk heals and 15k perk hot? Yeah i would say the Doc would have to die fairly easy

    It just cant be done with simply new weapon. Maybe one possibility would be to make all specials be a 100% hit again - which personally i think they should, because whats the point of special attack if it cant land? But as MA is evade class as well, it may as well horribly backfire the way AS pistols have backfired for Engineers.
    I'm unfamiliarized with the backfire for engies?

    Are you refering to the "right hand" equip for troa'ler that means AMEP isn't usable at the same time?

    Advies and doctors are totally different fights if you aren't using hotswaps.

    Advies you have to go all out for AR, then, hit em with incapacitate and red dusk during limber. If you can chew through coon and kill em in the time it takes them to pop phoenix you win, if not, they win.

    Docs, however, are a completely different animal. Lets just be clear: you can't kill docs with only perks (at least, I have never killed a good one). But, if you were to attempt it, you'de have to do something similar: wait for a nanite proc, load incap+red dusk for -2000 inits, pop flurry, winter fists, go full agg, load three fastest damage perks, wait for execution, pop BBSC, load crave, feast, and get ready with dimach and hope that you get one crit on the perk execution. The problem with docs is that they got so many defences that you don't see:
    1. NCU coolant sink
    2. FM on standby
    3. MOTR ready to go when they see incap land
    4. 3-4 fast acting heal perks
    5. extra 15% DTN for the alpha and nice heal modifier on top with reani cloak

    Docs are harder to kill than melee advies, ranged advies are impossible to kill using only AR+perks.

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