Friday with(out) Means - July 29th, 2011: Time Keeps On Tickin'

[aramsunat]

There was a joke there about Invisible War sucking that I think went over your head. ;P

(i should note that i feel invisible war gets kind of an undeserved bad rep, just because it was trying to be a sequel to deus ex - had it been its own game i think more people woulda liked it)

The story is OK of DX:IW but far less immersing as the first one's. IW also lacked a good atmosphere (the first one had large open areas whereas IW was full of closed small interiors, kinda claustrophobic) and the mechanics were dumbed down just to make it more console-compatible. Being a hardcore DX fan I think dumbing down the whole system of the game was a hit under the belt

[Lusos101]

Lots and lots of good stuff everybody should read carefully.

What (s)he said one gazillion times!!!!!!

[Mastablasta]

if the purses had the ability to be right clicked, and a trade window opened where you could store creds, then i think funcom would make ALOT of money off them (i.e. - a trade window with 2 text boxes, one you type in credit amount to add, the other you type in the amount to remove).

not sure if the mechanics would be possible, but its an idea if it can be done, wallets too plox... and being trade-able would be an added bonus.

Well, player shops sort of work that way... At least it's an off-player storage of money.

[Cogline]

After having some time to think I feel we need a Faction plot with my home city of Borealis. Bor's been a bit sidelined for a while now. I mean how long have OT been occupying a Neural city for? And not anyone, the ICC, Clans, or even Neutrals, have done anything. Except shift plot focus over to Newland. Either have Neuts arrive directly in Newland from Noob Island from now on or do something in Borealis. Even having that big mech wander about a bit once in a while. Or maybe us Neuts could do a deal with the Clans to take it down and smuggle the scrap to them over in Tir so they quit shooting us...

[Dreamcypher]

.What makes a good story in a game to you? Is it the writing? Is it the *style* of writing? Is it the atmosphere, or the immersion? What is it that ultimately makes you feel a game's story is worth investing in or not? Does the lack of a written narrative bother you when playing, or do you prefer a completely open-ended world without any background or setting at all?

The characters, and how they are affected/grow because of the story in the world the story is situated. This is something that MMOs just don't pull of (WoW tries to do this by instancing post-quests so that it looks like you have altered the world after completing/during completion of the quest.) But compared to the punch a game like Persona 4 has in that department, an MMO just can't ever compete and bring a story like that to the player.

That is wholly the reason why I'd care about a story. Look at other funcom games like Dreamfall, etc. I care about that story, because you made me care about Zoë.

Written narrative pisses me of. ESPECIALLY how it's delivered in AO...

You spam the dialogue window with chuncks of text, and while I initially maybe was interested to read what was said, I lost interest as soon as the third chunck/wall of text was thrown at me while I still wasn't done with the second...

I've played RP games since Baldur's Gate, and games *still* chose a written narrative to present their story. AO needs some work in that department if you want to use that as a story-telling medium. Which I think you should.

While the early stages of Age of Conan works wonders for me - as in, I don't jump around hitting "Complete Quest" to random quest givers, but instead I actually sit and listen to the spoken dialogue....

If the delivery of AO dialogue was better, I would be more interested in reading it, and as such more immersed/staying longer.

Which, honestly, MMOs are successful based on the time the player stays: if I spend 2 minutes on a quest, without reading the quest description (and a majority of those 2 minutes are spent on a FORUM alt-tabbed out of the game to figure out what to do), then that is a failiour. If I spend 20 minutes per quest chain, caring about the spoken dialogue in AoC for example, you know what? You'll keep me as a subscriber since it takes a longer time to go through, and since those stories make me CARE about the game world, I feel more immersed, so I'm more likely to stay.

So many, so so many MMOs on the market...
Just drop you of in a game-world you dont care about, and tell you to go kill rats or boars.

AO *was* different actually - I started playing when we still had the crash sequence, but post starting in backyards (which also sounds cool). It was clear: my character was on her way to Rubi-Ka. Her new home planet. Something happend though, and we crashed. Sure, EVERYONE crashed... But still.

That was better than waking up naked on the beach (again, the concept is very appealing, but maybe not so much in game play terms :P).

One thing that MMOs lack is the progression of character. Where is the individualized story? Look at star wars galaxies which is closing down - you have the "epic questline" or whatever, and profession based stuff. I'd like to see that in AO: a questline per class. Doesn't have to be wonderful, just some stuff to at first help you get situated, and as your levels progress, so do the demands put on you. Sort of like an extended "learn 2 play" in guise of quest-lines.
Perhaps something to fill the Lv. 100-200 void of *zero content*?

Also, more stuff to do in the game world itself always helps with the story-telling. I walked around for 5 minutes in WoW, and I ended up with more quests than I could finish before getting new ones. Because they're everywhere. And upon completion, they push me further to other zones in the game world as if in a logical progression - there's a sense of story in that way. I "complete" one area, and move to the next... The problem is, in AO, I don't think something like that can be done. I don't know if it *should* be done. AO has always been a "whole-world" kind of deal - 's the reasons you see lvl 20 leets together with lvl 90 wolves. It's "the wild", not a bunch of wobbling NPCs in the same area that exist only for the purpose of being grinded on...

But AO would be healthier with more quests around in the game world itself. With useful things as rewards... Weapons come to mind, armor (how about vaccum packed full sets? do the quest at level 30, get a level 30 vaccum packed set of apocalypse armor QL30? stuff like that: doesn't have to be wonderful, just something *viable* etc.

In AO we have like... Inventor Bobic. OK OK, there's a few ones, but they're just so scattered, and there's no way of knowing about them apart from a) research or b) accidentally stumbling onto them. It's very tempting to make quests like "Go kill 5 roller rats", I know... But AO doesn't suffer from that - the daily quests are a wonderful addition - but maybe you should place some into the game world instead of the quest hub? It would really enrichen the game world.

Content. Events. The feeling that something is changing.
The feeling of not knowing what's coming next.

I remember fondly random alien attacks (both on WA and OA), and the time when a GIGANTIC mutant came to Bliss... Unique events like that, makes the game world feel "more alive" - that's something games like WoW fail at... I actually felt really bummed about WoW lately. Go from quest hub to quest hub, there's a room full of profession trainers in each new location... It just feels so... Game-y. I dunno.

But AO doesn't seem to do those events anymore... I'd like to see significant changes, putting characters into motion. Make players feel part of your changes.
I remember when Bor became infested with Omni who shot clanners on sight... And the protests that followed (inlclusion of protest placards, etc), "omni go home"... And then the troopers stopped shooting clanners... Small things like that make a huge difference.

I remember the day you introduced the Biomare overhaul... An entire "quest chain" almost, even though there was no reward, just leading up to getting there. It felt great - I was such a low level back then, I couldn't "contribute" much to killing things... But I felt "part of it". And stuff like that is great. Get some more unique encounters and unique events into the game, and play around with the effects such things would have.

"What if...", omni went and wiped the peaceful neutral camp that reside... I don't even remember where I found them. What implications does such an action hold? What if they blame it on the clans? Etc, etc. "What if" part of the wall that protects from the un-terraformed land breaks, and something actually lives out there, and starts pouring through? What if aliens ACTUALLY manage to take over a city - making a real threat, not just an event for ppl to kill things? Players just becoming overwhelmed, not able to hold it... There's a ton of ideas to "play around with", "what if" scenarios. I think those kind of things help shape a game world, because it creates a sense of history. As I've been drawing most of my stuff from events in-game, I've been talking about "that time" or "this time" when this and that happened... That *is* history and storyline.

Don't be afraid to put stuff like that into the game, even if it is temporary... Because the fact that those things are the ones I remember most fondly about the game, are actually things that will never happen the same way again as back then, make them unique game experiences, and make me feel like I have been part of "some part of the game story", and that's worth more than "kill 5 reets", or whatever repeatable instance made.

[MidgarClan]

It is a fact that a great story line makes a great Game. In fact story line is about 90% of what makes a good game great, but also the other 90% is going to be it's Music. With a game Like Anarchy Online, Being an MMO there are certain qualities you can not incorporate from say a Console game, games which have proven to have the best Story Lines of all time in fact. In a Console game, there is more room for Interactive story line; without the distraction of a community in a MMO, a Story line can be allowed to flourish and be paid full attention to. Story lines in Console games are used just like a good book or movie, in the beginning they will draw you in and all throughout the game they will continue to capture and keep your imagination running, and as well without good music, a story line is hard pressed to stand alone.

Music is used to capture the attention of the player at least as much as the storyline, if not much more. In this regard you can say for a fact that Music is also Storyline in it's self. Think about it, without a story line in a game at all, you could still have a great game telling a story if the music was really good. Story line impacts the players emotions only with good music as it's companion.

Being that Anarchy Online is what it is, and it's so Old; there are a great many things that are outdated, but that can easily be handled by your Content Designers, who ever they will be. The music in Anarchy Online was Great at one point in time, and is still super for new player's I am sure, but only for a short period of time. Too much of Anarchy's Music is Copy and Paste much like the graphics and monsters and cloth's etc. Most of Anarchy's Music is also Ambiance, not much "meat" to it. Would you want to mow down on a 2 pound turkey for the Holidays? Me either..

Anarchy Online needs a special approach to it's storyline. For Example with Final Fantasy's 3 & 7, Arguably the best RPG's that ever existed; The story lines are to this day Impacting on the gamers very soul. Due to the nature of a console game and the absolutely ingeniously imaginative storyline and music, Final Fantasy 7 set records on opening day because it's story and music combined drew the player in, in an emotionally immersed storyline. Not to mention it's equipment configuration was absolutely fantastic. With Anarchy Online this kind of Immersion in story is going to be very difficult, however I believe it can be done. When Story line comes into play in Anarchy Online, there needs to be an Interactive part in whatever is going on.

There needs to be regular storyline events that players can participate in or at least see. Could you not use the billboards to display a short movie or News Report on the story line ongoing? Better yet, couldn't you use the billboards to Display the IRC News wire regularly in a FMV format? Other than this daily reporting of news, the events of which I speak of are as follows. If anyone here is old enough to remember, back in the day Omni forces Attacked or attempted to Invade Tir City, when it was the Major Hangout. There was story line about it everywhere, all the players talked about it and there were guards stationed at the woompahs in formation. THIS is the kind of interactivity I am talking about. In recent History there were the Jame association guards on the Old Athens Hill, all of which were killed by the players after some intense roll play and the girl who needed to get away was actually led out and being interacted with by a member of the community while everyone else was on the hill fighting.

These are the types of storyline events that Anarchy Online needs. For instance, what if a small group of Rogue JOBE scientists wanted to alter the weather on some parts of RUbi-Ka? How would they do that? What if one day there were portals forced open in different areas of Rubi-Ka that allowed the weather from those portions of Shadow lands to seep in and interact with Rubi-Ka. There would be Snow in some portion of the desert or a city because they forced open a portal from Penumbra, slowly tapering off to rain as you got further away from the site of the disturbance... Maybe one of those scientists in an aggressive move opened a portal from the scorching heat of inferno and set a city on fire, that you could actually go to and see. Perhaps one of them in a more demented state of mind, forced open a portal from Pandemonium and unsealed the chaos that exists somewhere on Rubi-Ka, in a newly opened zone perhaps being the only place where the environment from SL is affecting both the Evolution of wildlife and environment like nothing that has ever been seen.

Thees portals would be non interactive, but only to be seen as perhaps a huge portal in the sky, or a smaller blip somewhere near the ground with their effects on Rubi-Ka very much so seen in these areas. Just because RUbi-Ka is a desert Planet does not mean it can't snow in one part? Or that a small Oasis can't be grown in the middle of the desert.. or everywhere. A jungle could be born, and omni-tek city could fall, a Clan outpost could be deranged. The problem With Anarchy Online right now is the stagnating atmosphere. It needs to be given more life in all areas, a Job that the new Content Designer's could easily do.

Rubi-Ka is subject to change like our own planet here on the new RK3 (formally RK4) Now, just mix that with some new Music, and by new I mean only copy and paste that makes sense. LE missions should have their own atmosphere, Daily Missions should have their own atmosphere, Inferno Missions should have their own etc, all with different music. Anarchy Online's Music is not bad as is, It just needs more variety and perhaps a polishing up. When your hanging out in Old Athens or Tir City or Newland Desert, there should be a different music in each of there to reflect the state of mind of the player in their surroundings. If you travel outside the area of Newland desert woompahs or out the West gate of tir or East gate of old Athens, there should indeed be the Ambiance that is presently there, but combined with on over world music that is good for hunting, and perhaps the same in some type zones outside cities, but for the most part Different in Each. Battle stations needs some killer pvp music to be worth looking at anymore now that certain changes have been made to it.

This could also be Done with the aid of the Content Designer's if you hire the Right people. The Content designers need to be multi-talented. They need to be your work horse while revamping and removing the stagnating environmental factors on Rubi-Ka. By environmental I mean everything that needs a good polishing up to be not so as it always has been.

Have a Great Weekend!

[Chestity]

Wow Midgar, thats some wall of text. But after readin through it all i cant say anything but impressive!!!

You bring up so many good points and ideas for keeping this game alive. Like with the Rogue Scientists wrecking havoc with the weather.. this can open up for alot of stuff, like several missions, events and instances that could be active for a brief ammount of time or something.

And the music.. Well i dont think its changed alot since i started AO back in 2001, cant really say because i turned it off years ago.. to much repetition of the same muzak over and over.

Not gonna comment on all of your suggestions since i'm not a huge fan of walls of text, but will say that i agree 100% with your post :-)

[lainbr]

My question to you guys is this: What makes a good story in a game to you?

Atmosphere and Immersion!

[Hunni]

Well, good diversion. You managed to get some folks focused on something other than the fact that we're still waitin' for prof docs, rebalance and an engine.

[Cyberleet]

My question to you guys is this: What makes a good story in a game to you?

How it is conveyed into the gameplay that actually occurs. Sci-Fi plz!

And also; I don't feel as if I am playing subterfuge etc when I play agent, see?

The Scheol-quest is actually good but bad cause story stops us from action (we have to read text), so we can't enjoy it as we play, which makes things pretty empty. Also, sound...'omni-tek is your friend + industrial noise' makes atmosphere when in combat or evacuation from unicorns for example.

Ur design is too old fashioned, zergish and unoriginal so far.

[Cyberleet]

How it is conveyed into the gameplay that actually occurs. Sci-Fi plz!

Can also say adding buffed guards to WA and changing newbie island was a mistake, imo.

Same w faction-armor in itemshop for opposing side.

It is important u go ur own way tho, don't create too much upon other peoples art. Rather just preserve it. The Xan-stuff was ok, and the monster (reminded me of pyramid-head from silent hill) cause it was something new that came into AO and their (the actual team) own art.

[Berinda]

My comments may be seen as harsh, but here goes.

First, I saw handbags as one of the proposed social items. With how expensive item store items are, if I wanted a new handbag I'd save the money and drop it on a real one.

Second, if you're going for an example of a story-focused game, use Deus Ex or Alpha Protocol, instead of a piece of garbage like Deus Ex 2. Stating a good open-world game like Minecraft, then stating a bad story-driven game will sway the responses.

[AGPEcko]

first!

edit: super total winsauce

Does anyone actually ever buy/wear those purses? Havn't seen a single one, in-game, being worn social or otherwise.

Maybe some market research is in order before spending time on not releasing the engine.

[Namiru]

Does anyone actually ever buy/wear those purses? Havn't seen a single one, in-game, being worn social or otherwise.

Maybe some market research is in order before spending time on not releasing the engine.

Kintaiis' team designing purses is not the same team behind the Engine, so THAT'S not making a lick of difference.

But I agree that they should look into demand before increasing supply.

[Mastablasta]

Second, if you're going for an example of a story-focused game, use Deus Ex or Alpha Protocol, instead of a piece of garbage like Deus Ex 2. Stating a good open-world game like Minecraft, then stating a bad story-driven game will sway the responses.

How do you know that Deus Ex 3 (the real 2) will be a piece of garbage?

[Venachar]

The ultimate 'storyline' to me is immersion. I'm a big geek at heart. If I can believe I'm in a game, great. Gaming is an escape from reality. You might recall, Kintaii, my behaviour in CR channel when I finished Mass Effect 1 & 2 in a 2-week run. That's a storyline success...

[Cyberleet]

Also something cool about AO, we're not pumped by the NPC's as heroic or summat. Less good/evil.

We're in a conflict and a very exiting story and the player itself is placing self within the circumtances of the world.

[porter]

Style of writing. I happen to like the "Funcom style" whether it is AO or AoC (or TSW tentatively, still waiting...), vastly different worlds, in some strange way the "right" style, feel, touch in story and dialogue.

Congratulations on the apartment, no need to sleep in the office anymore

[Gatester]

The ultimate 'storyline' to me is immersion. I'm a big geek at heart. If I can believe I'm in a game, great. Gaming is an escape from reality. You might recall, Kintaii, my behaviour in CR channel when I finished Mass Effect 1 & 2 in a 2-week run. That's a storyline success...

Immersion sums up what I needed several paragraphs to say Where is the impact to my actions? I want to be a part of the story rather than apart from it.

[Chrys]

Cool question for game designer wannabes. midgarclan made a pretty good post and I agree with a lot of what he says. However, to add some thoughts, there's two different things to deal with in creating a believable world. There's storyline and there's setting. Storyline involves an element of time passing, events occuring, a history and a future. Setting is the "just so" aspect of the game. Nanos just work this way. Aliens just invade periodically. Some of it is set in the story others not.

Storyline, if too linear or too rigid, will inhibit players in the long term. Part of the problem with the first MMOs (including AO) is that they were modeled after single player games where story line taking you along a path was natural and the bulk of the game. Clearly from this thread some people still expect this aspect in an MMO, but a large number of others do not (or no longer do). In a vast multiplayer universe every player going along the same line presents a problem. Worse when you started to roll new toons. The linear story doesn't have staying power, nor does it allow for player agency.

So as games developed, storyline often took a backseat to setting. In some games, there's practically no story past the intro (Global Agenda for example). Others have divised mechanics to have players play an active role in the complexion of their universe (towers in AO, invasions in Tabula Rasa and Rift, RvR in Warhammer) - the players themselves make the story but there must be an element of "resetting" about it otherwise balance would break - and balance is more important than story for the game's longevity (Warhammer servers that were completely dominated by one side being the worst outcome ime).

Players have also changed. When I first played AO, which was my first MMO, I realise now that I was looking for a good single player RPG with other players to interact with occasionally. Back then I had hours to spend on a game, where immersion was important. These days, I've got like short 15-30 min spans, max 1 hour to play. So I'm looking for persistence (in my toons) and dynamic worlds (where I can have some impact) and good gameplay (fun PVP mostly, because PVM got boring to me ages ago) and not the feeling that I'm missing out somewhere (e.g. if hardcore raidgrind is the only way to get top gear, pass). Story is not as important, although I would expect an internally consistent world (no wizards and elves in a scifi world, no spaceships and lazers in a fantasy world).

At the stage when I quit AO, I realised most people still playing the game wanted something quite different out of this game from what I did. And I started to expect the devs to go in their direction, given the ageing mechanics that made linear storytelling the only viable option to expand play. I had already played TR by this point, and tried out WoW and some other forgettable games, but the dynamic world of TR was what I saw as the future. And in AO it didn't seem possible given their total neglect of tower mechanics. So I started hunting elsewhere, loved Warhammer for a long time till server imbalances and ****ty devs started to take their toll, then stopped playing altogether as RL took over. Now I have Global Agenda for my 30-min fixes which is the best hop-in-and-play MMO (it's more like a persistent Team Fortress than RPG) out there that I know.