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Thread: Nano-Technician Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #281
    There are a couple thing beside nanopool that gonna probably nerf our PvP DPS output, one being nano resist, since @ 2.8K MC versus 2.3K NR for instance would give about 77% landrate according to this http://pvp.aodb.us/ARDEF/weapon_calc.html. If you land 1 NR debuff on 2300 you end up at 87%. In the end, cut anything beetween 10% and 20% of our DPS from the rough PvP DPS values.

    As far as i can see we are subject like any other prof to cooldown on our tool as well - i am not sure nanopool should be added on top, but who knows. We got 45 sec recharge on NS1/2, our special nuke have 10 sec / 20 sec recharge which remind of weapon special recharge, our perks have recharge like for any other prof (on that subject the NR debuff perk will imo be the limiting factor for a lot of things, 75 sec recharge i think), etc.

    The cyberdeck which doesn't require nano pool will probably means jack in pvp since MC @ 2.8K + our poor AAO (200/300 ?) will makes us land like 50% of our regular or something. These regular shouldn't be dealing lot of dmg - the weapon dmg template is far from OP'd, and the critical bonus which i saw being put in front to argue bout our possible DPS is actually laughable - 650/750 base hit would means 3K/3.5Kish crit at most, with a combat prof with a decent AR to dmg conversion ratio - which NT doesn't have, as far as our information goes (1/12 past 1.2K AR right ?).

    I will know calc 30 seconds of fight in depth and see what this give us in term of na cost compared to dmg dealt and debuff etc :

    Sec / Nano program

    1 - nr debuff (3360)
    2 - Base nuke (3600)
    3 - Alpha Nuke (6000)
    4 - Blind (3562)
    5 - layer refresh (3701)
    6 - Base nuke (3600)
    7 - DoT line A (3000)
    8 - DoT line B (4067)
    9 - layer refresh (3701)
    10 - Base Nuke (3600)
    11 - NR debuff (3360)
    ** ALPHA TIME ! ** (add in some random DD perks)
    12 - Nano Burst, DPS mode (0)
    13 - Alpha nuke (6000)
    14 - Base nuke (3600)
    15 - Finishing nuke (6000)
    ** TARGET NOT DEAD SOMEHOW, TURTLERIZATION MODE ON ! **
    16 - Layer refresh (3701)
    17 - 20K nano heal (1)
    18 - Base nuke (3600)
    19 - Root the mofo (0) - Use LoS a bit there
    20 - Layer refresh (3701)
    21 - NR debuff (3360)
    22 - Base Nuke (3600)
    23 - NS2 time ! for the final strike
    24 - Blind (3562)
    ** Mini alpha time** (add in some random DD perks)
    25 - Nano Burst, DPS mode (0)
    26 - Base nuke (3600)
    27 - Alpha nuke (6000)
    28 - Layer refresh (3701)
    29 - **scratch his head**
    30 - Base nuke (3600)

    Total na cost : 95576 ---- @ 55% reduction, 43009 nano. For a trox, that d be 52K nano.

    This is just as informative as it can be - I am not saying 43K nano cost is obcene at this point, i m just wondering. Just some additionnal info for yall to think about.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    But yes - We want people to have to manage their nanopool and keep an eye on it; this is true for all professions which have a heavy focus on nanocasting.
    Wtb ability to monitor opponent's nano bar along with HP bar then ! Really !

  3. #283
    I think everyone would love to see a nanocaster's nano reserves, except for the nanocasters.

    Imagine your NT fighting something, and they know JUST when your offense/defense is no longer viable against them.

    It's not like you get to "see" the status of their defenses or their offensive capability.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    And, as I've said on NS2, we haven't hit the mark there yet - One thing we were looking at was applying a -100% nanocost reduction on the shield (meaning that getting hit would drain your nano under NS2 but your own nanocasting would not), but unfortunately that's yet another one of those "great ideas, can't due to code" things. ><
    How about Making it skill dependant? You've already established you can decide how much damage gets done depending on MC in our nukes.

    It has occured to me that these shields have rather pathetic requirements (when you consider both tools will be used @220)

    MK2 = 742 MM/SI
    MK1 = 418 MM/SI

    They seem to me more like basic entry requirements with the expectation of improvements due to skill? As I don't think anyone would expect the same duration/efficency to be effective across all TLs and ranges of skill.

    How about MK2 gets its regular Reflect Sheild portion back at 15% extra for every 500 points of skill over the requirement.

    742 = 100% DTN 0%Reflect
    1242 = 100% DTN 15%Reflect
    1742 = 100% DTN 30%Reflect
    2242 = 100% DTN 45%Reflect
    2742 = 100% DTN 60%Reflect
    3242 = 100% DTN 75%Reflect

    Which means @220 most would have 45 reflect running (so about half as costly for DNT) under NS2, and 60% reflected if they've bothered to invest in those skills, the rest DTN.

    Similarly MK1 could have an increase in duration per block-of-extra-skills as it very-much nerfs our combat abilities but is a valuable "use and recover / tank" tool. More seconds would be even more valuable.

    418 = 15 seconds duration.
    918 = 17 seconds duration.
    1418= 19 seconds duration.
    1918 = 21 seconds duration.
    2418 = 23 seconds duration.
    2918 = 25 seconds duration.

    Obviously - all numbers above complete guesses.

    Last idea -

    What if we could bind the idea of Requiring Nano, Having None and our active defence?
    I propose:
    "Notum Extraction Shield"
    Line - Reflect Emergency Buff: 824
    Duration 15s.
    Cooldown 120s.
    Rooted.
    Cancels any current DTN Buffs.
    Debuffs all Nanoskills -3000.
    Debuffs Nano Resist -500.
    Damage-ToNano -75. (So your nano goes up as you get hit) 25% damage gets through.
    Damage Shield - Energy Damage 100 (plus 500 damage per 500 MM/TS over requirement)

    So if anybody or anything dares to hit you while this this is active. They'll get a nasty surprise as they recharge your nano; take some damage themselves and only hit for 25% of what they expected.

    You are vunerable however; you can't defend yourself effectivly and you can't escape once activated. Your subject to being rooted/Dotted and all the usual things which used to hinder Nullity Sphere in PvP.
    Also - using this takes twice as long to recover from as use of Nullity Sphere, making you slightly more vunerable afterwards for a longer period..

  5. #285
    ^^ Bunch of fantastic ideas here. The one I don't know about is the nano recharge one, seems a bit strange, but the 2 ideas for scaling with NS seem great.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Waahash View Post
    I think everyone would love to see a nanocaster's nano reserves, except for the nanocasters.

    Imagine your NT fighting something, and they know JUST when your offense/defense is no longer viable against them.

    It's not like you get to "see" the status of their defenses or their offensive capability.

    I am more confident in exploiting this information against my opponents then em exploiting it versus me ^.

    Anyway, in an environment where nano pool matters so much more, and not just for NT, i d really like that info to be public.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    I'm not the guy who makes those numbers, so no I'm not the one who makes sure that doesn't happen. ;P I just report what I know in the interest of keeping up communication - Outside of that, I don't decide jack around here.
    please please please, with notum on top, dont take into account "only TL7" when crunching numbers.

    There's a huge difference between nano regen depending on level. It's not linear at all due to nano delta tick.
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  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Gridpain View Post
    It's not linear at all due to nano delta tick.
    That's news to him, for sure
    Marijke88::220|30|70 Opifex Martial Artist
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  9. #289

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Marijke View Post
    That's news to him, for sure
    Yeah, keep tellin' yourself that one.

    Yes, we know that the current Nano/Heal Delta designs effect different level ranges differently. We're quite well aware of that implementation and design. =)
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  10. #290
    I did my original numbercrunching for TL7 for a simple reason: It is well-known to the point of being obvious that TL7 have the most tools available for nano-regain, and as such, have the least amount of trouble with their nano. Therefore I did the calculation for TL7 figuring, if THEY can't keep the pool full, its obvious that NOONE will be able to.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Yeah, keep tellin' yourself that one.
    I was being sarcastic there^^
    Marijke88::220|30|70 Opifex Martial Artist
    Phexuz::220|30|70 Opifex Fixer
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    Wurstmacher::200|30|70 Opifex Shade

    Proud Advisor of Insomnia Gravis
    Account created: 2005-01-13

  12. #292

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    I did my original numbercrunching for TL7 for a simple reason: It is well-known to the point of being obvious that TL7 have the most tools available for nano-regain, and as such, have the least amount of trouble with their nano. Therefore I did the calculation for TL7 figuring, if THEY can't keep the pool full, its obvious that NOONE will be able to.
    In case peeps didn't read the post on the last page:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    But yes - We want people to have to manage their nanopool and keep an eye on it; this is true for all professions which have a heavy focus on nanocasting. It's a bad idea, though, to be getting yourselves worried and worked up over calculations that are including things *which are going to be changed* - Itemization is still coming, same with research, and the revamped perk document is going to be... very, very different from what's out there now. So while it's ok to bring it up as a concern, please don't start pulling out "Well according to my AUNO setup with this sheet I won't be able to cast any nanos after 29 seconds of chaincasting!!1!" because you're building your entire theory off of stuff that's not really relevant in discussing these documents. Trust me, you'll all be a lot happier and less stressed if you do.
    And, I mean, I understand that "well, this is all we have to go off of, so this is what we're going to use to calculate" and that's fine - If you wanna do comparisons based on what's currently available and in-game knock yourself out. But anyone who gets riled up about it is really just wasting effort and anger on absolutely nothing at all - It's fine to say "well, with what we know, this is a concern", but knowing that there's still plenty enough left to do, taking a nanosheet and looking at it in a vacuum (or even applied to previous/currently-existing stats/etc.) isn't really going to do much when applied to the reality of the rebalancing.

    Yes, we want nanopool to be a resource for casting professions that they need to keep an eye on. No, we don't want it to be something where you'll be running out of every five seconds and only be able to cast three nukes every minute. This is what we want, and this is where we will go with the rebalancing efforts - Save the righteous fury for us if, for any reason, with the rest of the changes it's as bad as you fear. Until then, focus on the design intent and not comparing it to what's currently available - You'll give yourselves a lot less headaches that way.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  13. #293
    Fair enough. To go out on a limb here, it might even be nice to sorta balance the nanopool concept across the levels better. What I mean by this is, every froob nt atm runs out of nano very quickly, though low levels have got it a bit worse. Pretty much all NTs except for late TL6 and TL7 run out of nano, albeit slightly slower than froobs. And then TL7 has no nano problems. It would be nice to see this imbalance addressed somewhat. Yes, TL7 should be able to hang onto their nano a bit better than TL2...but when push comes to shove, TL2 and TL7 are operating on the same basic mechanic of nano = everything, and so lower TLs should not need to be as strapped for nano as they are currently.

  14. #294
    Also, as a side note, is there any ETA of the rebalance efforts coming out, even partially, on testlive?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    You guys have been asking about the inability to cast blinds/roots/calms while under NS1 - Blinds and calms are debuffs and, at that point, are 'hostile actions'; blinds do -AAO while calms do -inits (in pvp), so both are more offensive than defensive. The fact that blinds and calms cannot be cast while under NS1 is intended.
    I can't agree with blinds and calms being more offensive then defensive. They are an offensive sort of defense yeah, which is the sort NT's rely on. Just like roots they reduce the hits you take, I can't see the difference here. Actually calms are much more of a defensive tool in pvm then roots are; especially against ranged NPC's.

    Sure it's nice that we can still root during NS1. But rooting and running away doesn't seem like a great strategy in most pvm situations that require emergency defenses, since I wonder what happens afterwards: Run out of range till they de-agg? Calm them from afar once NS1 runs out? When trying to kill a single melee NPC, NS1+root might be nice, but then you might as well just root and run out of range without NS1. But when several/high mobs agg you, it really becomes life-threatening requiring NS, and you'll need calms for those.

    Besides, calms are really peaceful, not offensive at all . And in pvp you only cast them if you don't intend to attack (since attacking would break the debuff), so I wouldn't exactly consider it very offensive either.

    I don't mind not being able to cast blinds while under NS, blinds only become useful when NS is down so you might as well cast them right after it runs out.

    I was going to suggest a -200% nanodamage instead of -5000 mc, but taking into account that it probably won't affect dots, it's probably not fair . So then I'll just ask to re-evaluate the mc requirement on calms .
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  16. #296

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Also, as a side note, is there any ETA of the rebalance efforts coming out, even partially, on testlive?
    Soon™. We've purposely avoided making any public target dates or potential release windows just because if something does go wrong (and this is AO, so odds are it will), we won't have a troupe of people standing outside with pitchforks and torches.

    ... then again this *is* Montreal and I've seen on average two protest marches a week around here, so you guys would probably just blend into the crowd. XD
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Soon™. We've purposely avoided making any public target dates or potential release windows just because if something does go wrong (and this is AO, so odds are it will), we won't have a troupe of people standing outside with pitchforks and torches.

    ... then again this *is* Montreal and I've seen on average two protest marches a week around here, so you guys would probably just blend into the crowd. XD
    Thats fair enough...It seems like the major rebalance changes are sorta coming to the end of the line here, which is why I asked, since its possible that you would have a better idea of the eta, being much closer to the conclusion.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Yes, we want nanopool to be a resource for casting professions that they need to keep an eye on. No, we don't want it to be something where you'll be running out of every five seconds and only be able to cast three nukes every minute. This is what we want, and this is where we will go with the rebalancing efforts - Save the righteous fury for us if, for any reason, with the rest of the changes it's as bad as you fear. Until then, focus on the design intent and not comparing it to what's currently available - You'll give yourselves a lot less headaches that way.
    It's hard to focus on the design intent when we don't really know what it is, you've been quite vague :P. "Yeah, nanopool management is important, but we don't want you to run out in 2 minutes, but maybe you will run out in like around 2 minutes, or maybe I don't want to prohibit 2 minutes after all so I'll say we don't want you to run out in 5 seconds. Who knows how much time we'll give you, we're a bunch of wild and crazy guys!"

    The numbers are very important for design intent, so it's hard not to worry about it. I really want to believe you that it will be all right, but all I can see in my future is RAGE

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroatheist View Post
    Thats fair enough...It seems like the major rebalance changes are sorta coming to the end of the line here, which is why I asked, since its possible that you would have a better idea of the eta, being much closer to the conclusion.
    Honestly, to me it doesn't feel like it's coming to the end of the line. Means explicatively said to not expect it "Soon". Also there is 2 things that look as much work to me as what has happened by now:
    - Item rebalance
    - Testing (there should be quite a long time between it being on testlive and it being live
    And then there also is (also before test-phase):
    - Reworking of perks (big changes)
    - Reworking current nano-docs (not so much changes anymore I guess, if all goes good)
    - Reworking pvm (i.e. remove ubt/nsd resists on bosses, make raids highly dependent on nsd, less dependent on it)
    - ...?

    I don't want to sound pessimistic, but you shouldn't have false hope either.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by LyrLazarus View Post
    It's hard to focus on the design intent when we don't really know what it is, you've been quite vague :P. "Yeah, nanopool management is important, but we don't want you to run out in 2 minutes, but maybe you will run out in like around 2 minutes, or maybe I don't want to prohibit 2 minutes after all so I'll say we don't want you to run out in 5 seconds. Who knows how much time we'll give you, we're a bunch of wild and crazy guys!"

    The numbers are very important for design intent, so it's hard not to worry about it. I really want to believe you that it will be all right, but all I can see in my future is RAGE
    Obviously, numbers at some point *are* the design idea. "Adjusting" numbers is a matter of small value change imo, but as far as we know it is actually the subject there.

    One design/number thing that remains rather vague right know tho is nano resist - what kind of nano resist numbers will we be facing ? If the standard becomes 3K per design, for instance, then there would be a design issue in our sheet, if it remains as today's, it looks coherent so far with small number adjustments, or maybe we'll see an entirely new system relative to nano program hit/misses mechanics ?

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