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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #801
    I was bow back when I started in 01. Switched to pistols then back to bow before level 180. Then ai came out, switched back to pistols. LE comes around, switch back to bow. Switched to creations almost 2 years ago, then pistol again around a year ago. I could make a lot of money selling my css if I switched back to creations like fc wants... But it was extremely close to get my leg alpha on. I was literally 1 point over with the agility pistol. I don't think I could do it as creation. That is my main concern with fc trying to pigeonhole us.

  2. #802
    In the good old days... our pet was supposed to be our main weapon, and for a MP to be able to OD his fully buffed demon was unthinkable. Some how people have gone away from that premise. With perks/procs/sl/ai/le now its not hard for me to OD my pet with redfire staff+nukes+perks. Which has led perception that MP's pets are glorified DoT.
    I've pvp'd vs all profs and won and lost, depending on the player. Dominate your primary nano skill to block heals/tms/mongo/layers etc with 10% effective mezz pet usually will carry me through most fights. Or at least makes it a race against time. My weapon has never really made much difference unless I was using tigress in pvp.
    Truth be told I always thought MP's more than any prof were supposed to be pet based not weapon based. But somewhere along the line we lost having the best attack pet. Now factor in lost debuffs and it kinda takes what i've always thought MP was supposed to be away (support).
    Whatever new rebalance nuke/nano drain that isn't in game.. and disclaimer may not EVER make it to live servers i think is BS. Id much rather have lower resist upgraded dominates, than a 95% resist NSD anyday. Also considering a heal pet will never be able to out heal 3 Inf mortiigs, I really, trully, and frightfully will miss dmg debuffs.
    So let me sum this up, if we lose dmg debuffs, and lose shield, that will mean we cant lower dmg we take, we cant evade dmg, AND pet cant out heal dmg... WTF are we gonna do since our attack pet cant even OD us to keep aggro???
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

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  3. #803
    AOE mezz pet is the idea I think - but we'll have to see how well that works. Hypothetically, we'll only be fighting one inf mortiig at a time and the mezzer will handle the others, and the attack pet will be better at taking agg (agressiveness buff, taunt proc, presumably better DD on the notum scourge pet) on the one mortiig we are fighting. At least that's the theory .

  4. #804
    AOE mezz pet will agro 100 monsters in the area, much worst than the last one in raids. If the AOE does not work, and I doubt it will do much better than the actual one since "absolute debuffs and controls are bad from Kintaii's perception", we will have massive area aggroing into MPs. If it "attacks" in missions over walls we will have area aggroing onto us. It will be used to gank MPs and will set us on PvP, imagine using it on some places with guards and open field PvM will have active MP ganking.
    Area nanos are much more easy to control than offensive area pet effects.

  5. #805
    If anything, I'd like to see that you could swap between a single powerful mezz in that pet, to a lesser AOE fear (like the MA one) when you need it. I'd try to find a way to code it so that it specifically affects the mezz pet, like the proc nano buffs that Crats are getting.

    This way, you can either strategically mezz one very annoying mob, or you can temporarily chase a bunch away from the tank or yourself, should you find a situation be overwhelming.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  6. #806
    Area mezzpet is a big question for us. But, i think FC wouldnt try it if they dont think they can make it good/effective and useful.

    Psikie: current healpet heals around 10k hp / min. New pet in the nanodoc heals 40k hp / min. And as i saw the nanodoc we will have more def than before (swapping for CS, +250 evade buff, DTP, 1hb shield gives 323 aad). So i think if you can solo 3 inf mortiigs now, ull be able to solo 3 after rebalance.

    I still dont get this pistol crazyness. Pistol MPs were bad even 5 years ago. Burst was always slow and couldnt get enough skills. 20-30 secs for a 3k burst was the common. Swapped to 1hb on 218 and it was way much better for pvm. Even tho best dmg MPs used MA. BoB and later shens. Was realy damn hardcore twink to put a pair on, but worth it, i saw an MP ODing everybody else, like 3 years ago or so. So there were always better choice than pistols.

    Ppl just forget to mention they choosed pistol because it was easy to get and easiest to put on (EP, RC). Therefore, because of their lazyness they choosed pistol. I know i tried it also for a long time. But as i said: there were always better option both pvm and pvp.

    Therefore i dont understand why ppl whine "we dont get weapon support". Look at keepers and traders pls, only 2he and shootgun, thats all they can use, nothing else. Why we, MPs wants 1hb/2hb/bow/pistol etc weapon support, as a SUPPORT PROF?

    For pvm we dont need more than 2,4k AR to be good. Thats enough for 95% of the bosses to perk and hit them. And for pvp, if i can be decent with nukes and pets i wont miss AS. Even tho right now i chase 220/30 MAs and other profs in BS, i can kill docs that i cant on adv.. ppl say we are crap in pvp, and guess in duels we are. But in BS its fun to chase. 215 adv was 7 secs, 217 trader was 5 secs to kill them. Right now i enjoy pvping on mp more than on adv/enf/shade (all toons 220/30/70 with full alpha on).

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post

    Therefore i dont understand why ppl whine "we dont get weapon support". Look at keepers and traders pls, only 2he and shootgun, thats all they can use, nothing else. Why we, MPs wants 1hb/2hb/bow/pistol etc weapon support, as a SUPPORT PROF?
    i can agree with that. as far as aoe mezz... would not be anymore difficult to do than say engineer blind aura.

    i understand all these proposed changes to our nanos and pets. but the only thing i am counting on for 100% are the things we are losing. nothing else is set in stone in the rebalance. the things that are supposed to be changed or added, may not ever make it to live servers. and they may not make it in the version we can see atm. so keep that in mind when anyone is talking about the "new" stuff for mp's over what we are losing.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

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    My Story

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    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  8. #808
    Great news man, sounds like mp's will be even more fun to play now!

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    I still dont get this pistol crazyness. Pistol MPs were bad even 5 years ago. Burst was always slow and couldnt get enough skills. 20-30 secs for a 3k burst was the common. Swapped to 1hb on 218 and it was way much better for pvm. Even tho best dmg MPs used MA. BoB and later shens. Was realy damn hardcore twink to put a pair on, but worth it, i saw an MP ODing everybody else, like 3 years ago or so. So there were always better choice than pistols.

    Ppl just forget to mention they choosed pistol because it was easy to get and easiest to put on (EP, RC). Therefore, because of their lazyness they choosed pistol. I know i tried it also for a long time. But as i said: there were always better option both pvm and pvp.
    At least on RK2, the top DD MP's I ever saw were all pistol. Back during the AI days, as pistol MP leveling on inf missions I was regularly 2nd or 3rd DD, often ODing people better equipped and higher level than me. And yes, I saw a couple MA MP's, who did quite respectable damage but nothing outstanding.

    This would have been 2006-2007, so about 4-5 years ago.

    There's a couple reasons pistols were excellent DD. It wasn't terribly difficult to equip pistols, but only part of that were the buffs availible. Don't forget that we have several symbs buffing pistols, a few MP items that buff pistols, and access to the pistol perk line (at the time only to 4 or 5, but now all the way to 10). Additionally pistol was the line we could boost the most IP wise, which made it the most friendly to us. MA is a close second IP wise...but we get no real support for that via perks or equipment, unlike pistol.

    Lesse...in my day(s) I've met: MA, 1HB, 2HB, Piercing, 2HE, ME, HW, Bow, Pistol, Shotty, Rifle, and RE MP's. Each had individual strength and weaknesses (the shotty MP especially sucked, an experiment gone wrong), but from a pure PvM DD perspective pistol MP was always top of the charts.

    For the record, going pistol MP was anything but lazyness. From a PvM DD perspective, you have to be very much on your game to manage timing for weapon attacks and nukes (timing nukes to fire during recharge and not interrupt your attacks). That gets even more difficult when you throw managing debuffs in there.

    From a PvP perspective, pistols are even tougher. You lack the alpha of a bow MP (though the pistol mastery perk #10 is *VERY* nice), and have to work hard to make up for it in defense to keep you alive longer. I wouldn't consider pistol MP's to be a PvP setup, they're a PvM or at best hybrid setup.

    1HB on the other hand is much easier, and always has been. You can throw a shield on your offhand for a large defense boost, and it wasn't too terribly difficult equipping a decently high QL weapon (though pre-LE/LoX dual wielding QL300's meant eliminating easily swapping a shield in or out). 1HB is also not a PvP setup though, not even a hybrid one.

  10. #810
    I tested both pistols and 1hb in 2006. I used pistol untill tl7 and swapped to 1HB around 215-220. Then back to pistols. I cant tell u exact numbers, but as i remember 1HB was much better for DDing, tho i used dual wield. Sometimes even i could be best dd on inf mishes. And after i swapped back to pistols i remember i was disappointed. Problem with pistols was the burst skill req, maybe u remember why ql 199 ai burst pistols was soo expensive?

    Maybe you met some random MA mps, but i saw the best. That time only 1 team got to Tara and killed it, always with the best DDs. This MP was in that team and ODed everybody else. Sols, MAs, shades, whatever was there. Many times. And i doubt any pistol mp could OD him. I even saw shen MPs in BS without pet. And he said pet makes him slow, so he didnt cast it...

    So maybe you saw good pistol mps, but u didnt see all of us. 1HB was crap for pvp, even pistol better there. But still wasnt that good. Burst/FS missed a lot, coz low ar was hard to hit or perk anybody. Now Deadeye is cool, but who u perk with it? Well, coz the 80% def check u can perk some, docs and engis, but u cant perk ppl with 3k+ def which is not much at all nowadays.

    So saying that pistol MPs were top isnt true. As i said before pistol was a fair choice but there were always better option for pvm and pvp. Maybe pistol was a good hybrid thats why lots of mps choosed it.

    PS.: On lower lvl, best DD for mps is Howlet imo. I made a 150 howlet twink mp, been raidleading in sec10 for many months. I saw like 3-4 ppl who could OD me (enf with SoC,sol,shade with PE), everybody was like "wth an mp and ODs everybody else?"
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Aug 9th, 2011 at 11:23:45.

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    I tested both pistols and 1hb in 2006. I used pistol untill tl7 and swapped to 1HB around 215-220. Then back to pistols. I cant tell u exact numbers, but as i remember 1HB was much better for DDing, tho i used dual wield. Sometimes even i could be best dd on inf mishes. And after i swapped back to pistols i remember i was disappointed. Problem with pistols was the burst skill req, maybe u remember why ql 199 ai burst pistols was soo expensive?

    Maybe you met some random MA mps, but i saw the best. That time only 1 team got to Tara and killed it, always with the best DDs. This MP was in that team and ODed everybody else. Sols, MAs, shades, whatever was there. Many times. And i doubt any pistol mp could OD him. I even saw shen MPs in BS without pet. And he said pet makes him slow, so he didnt cast it...

    So maybe you saw good pistol mps, but u didnt see all of us. 1HB was crap for pvp, even pistol better there. But still wasnt that good. Burst/FS missed a lot, coz low ar was hard to hit or perk anybody. Now Deadeye is cool, but who u perk with it? Well, coz the 80% def check u can perk some, docs and engis, but u cant perk ppl with 3k+ def which is not much at all nowadays.

    So saying that pistol MPs were top isnt true. As i said before pistol was a fair choice but there were always better option for pvm and pvp. Maybe pistol was a good hybrid thats why lots of mps choosed it.

    PS.: On lower lvl, best DD for mps is Howlet imo. I made a 150 howlet twink mp, been raidleading in sec10 for many months. I saw like 3-4 ppl who could OD me (enf with SoC,sol,shade with PE), everybody was like "wth an mp and ODs everybody else?"
    You contradict yourself a bit. You say pistol was the easy way and them you say it was hard for you to keep up with burst and multiranged requirements.

    1HB was the best PvM DD back them, yes, much better than MA. And you can't say he found the worst MA MPs around. If you go shen, you really have to twink.

    Pistol was the best all around weapon, not the best for anything but helpfull for any task, you know, like MPs should be.

    We didn't use the pet in BS for a reason, it was allways snared or mezzed, so it was worthless to take time to cast it. The best use it had in BS was when a crat charmed it and used it to kill the MP who casted it. In early BS bow was > all.

    MPs are not going to make more damage than they do now, I don't know where people got that idea, no documentation proves that. You will see in test when you start trying to cast all those nanos. The MP as a damage to time profession is dead and it might have a nice nuking alpha but you will see that wont' be enough.

    Healing is being solved badly, it might be cool for raids but for an MP healing four times as fast is 1000 times better than healing four times as much.

    You touched the cool spot. Yes we can't perk people and won't perk them in the future except maybe temporarily with our nanoskills, till people adjusts NR a bit to the new situation. I am dancing now with 3000 NR lets see how much people can reach in the future. Those 2800 nanoskills some brag about they will reach loosing defense and NR will be worthless soon and a simple debuff from a trader will make them former shells of themselves.

    MPs need more AR, much more. It will not give them damage output, it will not give them a huge alpha. It will just make their tools functional and playable.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Problem with pistols was the burst skill req, maybe u remember why ql 199 ai burst pistols was soo expensive?
    MR was also an issue, something I was always jealous of 1HB of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Maybe you met some random MA mps, but i saw the best. That time only 1 team got to Tara and killed it, always with the best DDs. This MP was in that team and ODed everybody else. Sols, MAs, shades, whatever was there. Many times. And i doubt any pistol mp could OD him. I even saw shen MPs in BS without pet. And he said pet makes him slow, so he didnt cast it...
    If an MA MP is ODing Sols, MAs, shades, etc, then those are some incredibly gimp toons. No MP will OD the ultimate DD profs. Soldies? Maybe (I've OD'd decently setup soldies). MA's? Not if they're even halfway decent (come close to matching them, maybe). Shades? Did they forget to perk?

    Shades especially can be excellent DD toons. Once they start walking through their perk chains multiple times, their damage tends to skyrocket. Only way I could ever OD a shade was on low HP mobs where their chains kept getting interrupted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    So saying that pistol MPs were top isnt true. As i said before pistol was a fair choice but there were always better option for pvm and pvp. Maybe pistol was a good hybrid thats why lots of mps choosed it.
    Sure, there are other options better for other focuses. 1HB was better for defense. Bow or rifle (old school) was better for PvP. Heavy Weapons (REALLY old school) was better for PvP. But for pure PvM DD, never did see anyone OD pistols. *shrug*


    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    1HB was the best PvM DD back them, yes, much better than MA. And you can't say he found the worst MA MPs around. If you go shen, you really have to twink.
    1HB wasn't really all that great of DD. If you didn't dual wield sticks you'd have decent defense but your damage would drop a ton. If you dual wielded, you had to wear so much +1HB gear to keep out of OE that you'd gimp yourself in other areas.

    That particular arguement one particular 1HB MP and I went back and forth on. He was bound and determined to dual wield QL300 hammers (or as close to it as was possible), and I kept pointing out that no matter how good his DD was he was going to gimp his defense (VERY squishy)...and there was no way he was going to OD me. (And he never did. )

  13. #813
    Ebag... "Ultimate DD profs" ? We speak about 4-5 years back. Shades were always good DDs i admit it. But back then, advs was 1 of top DDs too. They ODed fixers/sold/crats. Sols used Jobe pistol for FA even on 220, also smg + pistol mixed setup. More likely none of them used Assault rifle. Sols were more like an average dmg prof. Back then dmg was more balanced (expect shade).

    Even if you dont belive, yes MP could od everybody else with dual shens (maybe not shades). Was extremly hard to put on 2 shens, thats why only very few MPs did it.

    Madmax: i said pistol was easist to put on. You can buff it the most, few sl perks we had for it. Using 1 ql 280+ and a 199 wasnt that hard, but if u wanted a 2nd 200+ had to work a lot on MR.

    Still i dont understand why ppl want pistols supported so badly. I wonder if current mps can use troa ler or peh wer. But still if mps get 2,8k+ AR that would make other profs whine a lot. None of the support profs has such huge AR, and we wont have either.

    Madmax: i dont agree. Nuke will be important part of our tools, we will get the missing dmg after losing AS from nukes. On aliens 10k nuke not enough? You cant find the more dmg? Read more carefully pls. Dmg proc on pet + stronger pet, huge nukes with 30-40% nanodmg, even some dmg from weps. Also FC said they gonna remake NR system, maybe we will perk more ppl in pvp. Also 200% nanodmg perk as i saw, if u can hit twice with nuke that means 15k nukes 2-3 times. So we wont have more dmg you say?

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Was extremly hard to put on 2 shens, thats why only very few MPs did it.
    Yeah, I know exactly how hard. I helped Kikiki put his back on his Doc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Madmax: i said pistol was easist to put on. You can buff it the most, few sl perks we had for it. Using 1 ql 280+ and a 199 wasnt that hard, but if u wanted a 2nd 200+ had to work a lot on MR.
    300/199 wasn't all that hard. You didn't even need AI armor to keep it out of OE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Still i dont understand why ppl want pistols supported so badly. I wonder if current mps can use troa ler or peh wer.
    Peh'wer and Troa'ler would both be tough. Not sure you could meet the 1600 AS or Burst req. AS would likely be the easiest to get due to all our AS boost, but for either you're coming up with about 800-900 points in skill from equip/perks/research/etc.

    I suppose the reason why some MP's like pistols is for historic reasons. Pistols have always been a very good choice, and MP's have always gotten at least some support for them.

    Plus I just want to be able to dual wield my pistol with a summoned shield. Come on, ya gotta admit that'd just be cool.

  15. #815
    Creation weapons now all attack at 100% weapon(1hb or 2hb) 25% TS, meaning that they will work with weapon specific perk actions.

    Just was thinking about this change... for a few perk actions, we are losing a LOT of AR. I dont know if its worth gaining perks to not being able to hit target? Does that make sense? I mean going from 2200-2800 AR dropping down to like 1400-1800? Is that just me or what?
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  16. #816
    Its not just you ^^ Devs prolly read this thread and choiced one option at random. One of the worst, is what I think
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  17. #817
    I dont know if its worth gaining perks to not being able to hit target?
    This isn't really what's happening though is it?

    If you're a creation user right now, then you can't use any weapon-skill based perks - so the new situation will be better than present.

    If you're a weapon user right now, then you would certainly gain in AR through the addition of the 25% TS.

    But it's also important to look at things from a wider perspective I think:

    Nanoskill based perks are getting some fairly serious improvements as stands - including in damage. And also the AAD will no longer apply to NR def check perks, so reliance on weapon-skill based perks might be seen as reduced and Nanoskill based perks will become much more important for us.

    And of course, the idea is that improved nuke damage and pet damage should make those a much more important part of the damage profile of an MP than at present in most PvP... which again means that the reliance on weapon-skill based perks should be much reduced.

    Perks will no longer have the AAO counted twice either. This should mean that the difference between AAO rich professions and AAD rich professions, shouldn't be so wide as it is now. That should mean that non-AAO specialists should be able to land more anyway once the relative values are adjusted in balancing.

    I don't think that it's necessarily the best option - and I'd particularly have liked to see the Creation Bow have a better balance on attack skills... but it may not turn out to be as bad as it may seem if you're looking at it in such a restricted way as you depict.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  18. #818
    Actually.... they are forcing us to go back to Nanoskills and for some unknowm reason they gave us 100%Weapon+25%TS Creations AR... To me it sounds like a joke. A really bad ones.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  19. #819
    Lets be honest here, support profs shouldn't have good weapon skills.

    And if our nano damage and pet damage is good enough, we don't need it.

  20. #820
    I agree, we dont need huge wep love. Making mps dmg based on nukes and nanoskills will mean we wont need weps.

    Right now we have ~20-25% nanodmg or so. With new perks and maybe other stuffs gets upgrade we will have around 40-50% + a 200% perk. And you can spam 3 nukes in like 4 secs, with all the huge dmg bonus they will be 30% dmg (ofc if landed in pvp). Also for pvm: if you count that 4k*1,4=5,6k base nuke that you can use every 4 secs + pet + perk + little wep dmg. For me: if we want dmg, we spam nukes. If we dont, then we just be lazy and use pet/regular.

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