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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #781
    Thats enough in tl5 maybe. not in tl7 ;p
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #782
    Explain that to the guy who needs gear hotswaps to cast top nanos. -300 is quite a bit. Our current MIMQ is only -150. Add in Dominates for another -125. That is what we are current able to debuff. NSD is also going to be improved. Our overall proposed net gain is there, and in print.

    Now, in the future at tl7, we are combining them into one cast, for -300. That is ALL the dominates at once, in a single nuke, which has a 25 pt difference between then(should it pass as such) and now. All things considered, this is an improvement, no? Lobby the debuff to be more powerful if you must, but don't lie and say its not there. :P
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Jul 31st, 2011 at 05:46:14.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  3. #783
    Tl7 you say? If you debuff enfs with -50 nanoskills they are doomed. -300 nanoskills means nearly all profs unable to cast their nanos. Expect trader, ma, maybe mp/nt, but all rest profs cant cast their top 1 or 2 nanos.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    Now, in the future at tl7, we are combining them into one cast, for -300. That is ALL the dominates at once, in a single nuke, which has a 25 pt difference between then(should it pass as such) and now. All things considered, this is an improvement, no? Lobby the debuff to be more powerful if you must, but don't lie and say its not there. :P
    In tl5 we can debuff -150 from MIMQ and -125 from Dominates. In current nanodocs, its -150 from MIMQ and thats all. All lower lvls are losing a lot of nanodebuff power while tl7 is getting wooping -25 more debuff.

    Just because current nanodoc top nuke have same debuff power as MIMQ+Dominates doesnt changes the fact that Dominates are gone and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Tl7 you say? If you debuff enfs with -50 nanoskills they are doomed. -300 nanoskills means nearly all profs unable to cast their nanos. Expect trader, ma, maybe mp/nt, but all rest profs cant cast their top 1 or 2 nanos.
    Most of then are NR1 or 2, which means we cant land on then to begin with If, after rebalance, they choose to get rid of NR, they still have a good margin of what can be debuffed. In meanwhile, traders will be still able to debuff everything -275 plus -275. -300 Nanodebuff is not that powerfull ;x
    Last edited by Anarrina; Sep 22nd, 2011 at 17:20:10. Reason: removed obscenities
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  5. #785
    I think I know how to solve all our problems.

    According to some posters here, we only have an image problem and mps are fine otherwise. Thus, my solution... During the rebalance, name us jedi or sith lord.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Just because current nanodoc top nuke have same debuff power as MIMQ+Dominates doesnt changes the fact that Dominates are gone and such.
    Semantics, really. Its still literally there, regardless the how they label it.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  7. #787
    One thing to point out is that arguably the only thing keeping us from being over-powered at lower title levels is CC on our pets. Pets are getting improved defenses to hostile nanos and we're getting access to CC removers at lower levels. That in addition to dominates might be a bit too much? So we're losing a bit of nano-skill debuffing at lower levels, where we are currently strong, and gaining a bit at TL7, where we are currently weak.

    On another note, I completely support Esssch's proposal. My vote is for sith lord (jedi masters, being all into limiting the influence of emotion, seem less MP).

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    NSD is also going to be improved.
    Did I miss an update to the nanodoc proposal? NSD will be nerfed into the ground compared to what we have today...

  9. #789
    Justin, I see since I left that you've made a name for yourself and that you're starting to rival some of the best in terms of mp knowledge. Just like I knew you would, when you were at 150. Still disappointed I couldn't get you to apply to storm though

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    Did I miss an update to the nanodoc proposal? NSD will be nerfed into the ground compared to what we have today...
    I believe the spirit of the improvement was meant that it was going to actually be useful on other mobs then just the ones we traditionally spam it on.

    I really don't agree with the much smaller duration on it, but at least its supposed to be available when I need it in a pinch.

    I'd love to see NSD more useful than its proposed re-imagining. But, that is another argument.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  11. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Justin, I see since I left that you've made a name for yourself and that you're starting to rival some of the best in terms of mp knowledge. Just like I knew you would, when you were at 150. Still disappointed I couldn't get you to apply to storm though
    Nah! Its just me plotting behind the scenes Mhuahuahuahua /evul /joke

    In fact i agree with u Wondering when FC will give us a NanoCrystal (JustinSane's XXX of YYY)
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  12. #792
    Probably during the next le.... Which will hopefully be an expansion never repeated!

    Nsd post balance would be considerably more useful if we had enemy castbars or if pvm encounters actually did strategies rather than using abilities at random.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    Explain that to the guy who needs gear hotswaps to cast top nanos.
    LoL

    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Probably during the next le.... Which will hopefully be an expansion never repeated!

    Nsd post balance would be considerably more useful if we had enemy castbars or if pvm encounters actually did strategies rather than using abilities at random.
    If they actually had some basic AI you mean?

    Simplifying the profession comes because of the new nukes and the possibility of casting many nanos at the same time. FC though, maybe rightfully, that if the MP could at the same time damagedebuff, nanodebuff, healingdebuff, nanocost hurt, and at the same time 1,2,3,4 nuke as hell MPs and have a huge shield defense could be a bit...overpowered?

    The new NTs with pets might not care much about the new simplified profession as we can see here. Instead, it is a severe nerf to weapon MPs who relied in debuffing, stuns and most of the MP nano tools as their main defenses for soloing, PvPing and even raiding.

    To get the equation back there is a simple answer. Nerf the nukes and give us back the debuffs, at least the old ones.

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    FC though, maybe rightfully, that if the MP could at the same time damagedebuff, nanodebuff, healingdebuff, nanocost hurt, and at the same time 1,2,3,4 nuke as hell MPs and have a huge shield defense could be a bit...overpowered?

    The new NTs with pets might not care much about the new simplified profession as we can see here.
    I'm a wee bit curious here. I have sort of kinda held the image in my head (false as it is) that MP's were becoming agents with pets. (AS and weak outdated casting set) Now, the new image people are rolling with is NT's with pets. Then, without really seeing a pattern forming, someone invents the idea they wanna make us Trader's with pets.

    It just seems to me, that most folks have a very convoluted idea of what MP's are. My best wish is that perhaps with the new re-purposing of our toolset that we can actually get a role instead of getting scraps from others.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  15. #795
    I can't imagine how you can get the idea in your imagination that our debuffs have much to do with traders.

    Agents with pets, maybe they where, but at least they relied on skill and knowledge of their toolset to survive, not as easy as hiding behind a shield and nuking. I, as a pistolero, needed to use much more the MP debuffs to survive. It is not easy to stop an enforce's alpha, but you might not understand it from the other side.

  16. #796
    @Bubba Actually I prefer MP 'role' as they are now. Maybe we are the only noncookie cutter proff remaining! Man, if you inspect most of Bow MP you will see that their setups are diferent. And we have Bow MP, Shield MP, Pistol MP, 1hb MP and several others 'weird' ones. :x Sadly only first 3 perform well in pvp.

    Well... Thats why I always say: "MP should perform well with anything he put as weapon" If we look at nanodoc alone, this premisse is ok: weap MP only loses Base nuke and Staff pet buff.

    Then, Kintaii come and say to us that FC will only support 1hb 2hb and bow. Excluding pistols and anything else a cool MP should think. In this point I agree with you, Madmax MPs are being nerfed and dumbed down.

    WTF! There are 1hb, 2hb, 1he, 2he, melee energy and bow with MP as requirement. And pistol, while there are no MP pistol, its the less cost ip wise weapon skill. We should have a nano or perkline which should buff at least the weapons skills I listed above, if not all basic weapons skills! Not a big ammount for sure, since we arent weapon specialists, but we should have this kind of option.

    P.s.: WTB usefull debuffs in pvm.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    It is not easy to stop an enforce's alpha, but you might not understand it from the other side.
    I completely understand it, as not only do I have an MP but my main is also an enforcer. I stopped PVP'ing on my enforcer because facerolling isn't fun for me. As for any of my other toons, I try to avoid the proverbial enforcer alpha by not standing in front of him. I'm shady like that. If said enforcer gets the jump on me, then that's not the fault of my profession, that is the fault of my position or tactic at that moment. It is also in part fault of a broken AAO mechanic, that devs are going to change.

    I am pretty sure we were not meant to out-tank the tanking profession, in PVM nor PVP.

    So, I hang on the fringe and bide my time, cast or kite, wait for friends or allies, etc etc. I don't care about epeen, coming or going.
    The illusion of Epeen is what tends to fuel most whines, imo.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Aug 3rd, 2011 at 00:05:44.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  18. #798
    Personally I don't think MP's should get any specific weapon support, the Buffs from LE reseach for Bow and Blunt weapons should be removed, and no one weapon should have any favouritism for an MP over any other, that's not to say that there shouldn't be creation weapons just that MP's shouldn't get weapon specific buffs.

    I wouldn't object to AR buffs though as an alternative expression of their Anger.

    Really the best way to support all weapon options is to support none.
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
    Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
    Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean

    Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.

  19. #799
    There seems to be an underlying assumption, for many of the players here, that the MP used to be a profession that could use any weapon type. Following on from that, is the idea that MPs should 'again' be broadly decent with all weapon types and be able to choose and be effective with a wide range of different weapons.

    But that underlying assumption really isn't true - especially in PvP. PvP MPs have almost always tended to use Pistols (highest skill max) or Aimed Shot (Tigress, Caterwauls, Ithacas etc - no need for high AR)... and whichever weapon gave the highest AS with a decent recycle was the flavour of the month weapon that the vast majority of MPs used - it had nothing to do with the base weapon-skill involved. The third option was holding some melee weaponry for their buffs and focussing on pets and nukes for attack (creations/parry stick/SoZ etc).

    It has been clear for some years now, that MPs' strength with Pistols has been waning and being replaced by bows. That's been a noticeable design direction since SL pretty much. Now FC have come out and said that special support for pistols isn't their goal for MPs - and that bows should replace them. I think that's a shame personally and don't really see why they can't provide both pistol and bow support to some degree.

    But this isn't really about MPs 'losing' the ability to use many kinds of weapon. In reality, they arguably never really had that ability and certainly haven't had it since SL. What it's about is switching from Pistols to Bow as the priority normal weapon.

    When people in the veteran years used to say that PvM MPs "could use any weapon, because they were equally bad with all of them"... that was because Pet + Nukes made up the vast majority of MP damage and as a result, whichever weapon you chose didn't really make that much difference to your overall damage output. There were exceptions to this, mainly when the MPs' primary offence of the Pets/Nukes weren't effective due to pathing issues or pets having too low AR etc... but even then, it was usually AS in PvP and Burst in PvM that were used to try to balance out that weakness. Solo specialists could use a wider range of weaponry - but again, that was largely because pets and nukes were effective for soloists, because the pathing issues and speed of kill in soloing was different.

    So... it's reasonable to make a case for completely changing the intended design direction of MPs by giving them good AR with a wide range of base weapon types (e.g. +1K AAO buff) - a sort of 'Soldier with Pets'. It's reasonable to say that we want to be able to choose any kind of weapon and have it deliver a large percentage of MP damage... but let's not pretend that this is in some way returning to how things were in the past.

    In the past, MPs could never really practically use many different weapon types effectively and in fact, were restricted pretty much to one or two choices. In the past, we never had strong enough AR for weapons to make a major difference to our overall damage, when pets/nukes were effective. In the past we used Aimed Shot a lot in PvP because the pets and nukes weren't effective in PvP - but we used that because our weapon AR on any weapon was ineffective.

    I don't have anything, in principle, against MPs becoming 'Soldiers with Pets'. You could even build it so that there's a choice... by tying all nukes to creation wielders and offering big AAO buffs for non-creation users. But the chances of it happening are really very, very low... because FC never intended MPs to be 'Soldiers with Pets' and still don't, from what we've seen. You'd have to get them to completely change their design intentions to achieve it... which I just don't see happening.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Aug 3rd, 2011 at 10:25:53.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  20. #800
    Historically, I could never buy into the war of weapons when it came to MP's. On enforcers and engineers, it was sort of critical. But mps? Nah. I've tried all the major ones, and several of the unspoken ones (like shot gun! <--lawl wtf?)

    I can't really be swayed for two reasons. 1.> historically, the dependance upon these weapons were much like X described. And in truth, none of them really made me feel any more or less powerful. They all equally were lacking, even the majority of creations as well. 2.> Micromanaging MP's seem to be take the longest to me, when compared to other pet professions. This was mostly due to having the third pet, which in the past had abysmal health issues. I stopped casting it, until Yadirra came into existance. If it can be that much of a hassle just for one person, I can't imagine what a new player must be thinking.

    I can't be worried too much with weapon burst DPS, while im trying to make sure to spread the love around as a nanocaster. Even if its a mediocre utility, I prefer that utility to be effective and streamlined, which the MP profession playerbase has been struggling with.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

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