Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #761
    I don't see any reason to come back since there is not decisive weapon support from funcom. Maybe Kintaii and Justinsane think that giving an small price in any form for the weapon wielders like, for example, an item that gives +100 (insert 1hb or pistol or bow here) is enough will make us happy. That is not true.

    Decisive weapon support is what many here want, like it was done for bow not so long ago. Decisive support means enough AR coming in the form of items, research, perks and even nanos. As long as you don't consider weapons part of our toolset as important as nukes are there is no way we can be happy with scraps of what creation nukers get. It is not that hard, it is just lack of interest from FC and from professionals.

  2. #762
    Personally i dont need any wep for mps. If we can get decent tools and a wep that has only modifiers on it and 1-1 dmg, and i can still be very nice both pvm and pvp, i wont cry for weps.

    MP used to be a nanoprof. Tho i agree 2,6-2,8k static AR would be nice for mps so they can hit the harder targets. More AR useless coz weapon will be much less important in pvp. Slow attack time also fine, but this brings up the question of procs. Right now even def proc based on our attack: you cant get the 100-250 evade proc running if u dont hit the target.

  3. #763
    @sabandija Not all of us really want more weapon support. Weapons was what we have to relly due nerfed pets and outdated nukes. IF, and only IF, they make stuff right, our pets will be amazing, will not be nerfed and we will start to ignore if our weapon hit at all. But I'm not so optimist to believe that will happen. And I'm also not optimist they will give us more weapon support, Devs ever said Pistols will not be supported anymore :X

    What is deadly wrong in current rebalance doc is our debuffs. We got penalized because of crats debuffs, the ones who bring mobs number to negative. They all just become useless in pvm. Really 10seconds are nothing, with 20seconds followed immunity... They should make our debuffs like they did with snares and roots, a version for pvp and a version for pvm. 10seconds is nothing in pvm.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  4. #764
    I wonder how area mezz pet will work. Maybe coz it was bugged and useless for many years we dont expect anything useful but.. there is a very little hope we get something useful.

    Debuffs.. for me mp never was a debuffer. For solo we had few, but in all, nothing realy useful. Expect nsd, rest was too small or got overwrited easly, therefore rarely useful. Right now ppl whine for mostly useless nanos. Just to have something they can spam and say "im useful, i spam nanos" but they never saved a big raid from whipe. (or made tank's / doc's life easier). Its a fact, and i think as main raid leader on lots of pande and sec42 raid i got the experience to say this. On big raids mp meant 1% help, or even less.

    Instead of being debuffer, i wanna be team supporter. The new soothing spirit perks that gives 3,9k hp-nano / min will be nice.

    We should choose from the different roles: debuffer, wep user, pet user, nuker and whatever. If we wanna be all at once, we wont be good at any (and nerfed at the end like right now) so we should choose less but more playable roles. As i said, pet user, nuker, supporter i can image for MPs. A wep, 1-2 debuff ofc fine, but which is our main role and what should we focus the most?

  5. #765
    @Tuty I can find loads of usefullness to our useless debuffs right now. Ofc, most includes the fact there are no Crat in raid, but hmmm something happened last year that makes everything prostate in front of then and cry "come to my raid come to my raid". Lets face it, why devs moved Malaise away from our DD debuff line? Should be to make our "useless" DD debuff usefull. Then they nerf it. Its bugging me since first time I read nanodoc and makes no sense at all.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  6. #766
    Didn't Justin say something about bosses probably retaining immunity to the Doc/Crat debuffs? That would be one thing that makes it more sensible... where MPs have a role in damage mitigation that the Doc/Crat debuffs can't fill.

    It looks like they want to give some powerful damage mitigation - but if that were available all the time, then it messes up how easy or difficult mobs are. Mobs are too easy if the mitigation is too heavy, so they decide to either slap immunities on them or reduce the up-time on the debuffs. Quite a few of the changes seem to have a background of trying to improve the ability to balance mob encounters. This looks like being one of them perhaps?

    There's an argument for saying that the reduced up-time is better than having loads of immunities. I'm personally not entirely convinced... as I think that teams on the whole, prefer to have consistent debuffs than patchy ones - but I can at least see a reasonable thinking process behind the FC plan, even if I disagree with it.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  7. #767
    Guess i know why they wanna make this reduced up-time. Look at docs right now: when ubt proc is up, every mobs get pretty weak. And when proc not running, team have to focus. I guess FC wanna support this play style: there is a shorter time when u can swap item, rebuff, do anything, and then u have to focus on the play.

    When something happens, and doc/team must focus on other thing and not only on boss, its good to debuff its dmg so ppl can share their powers. Because this i like the new dmg debuff: -1k dmg all the time was good support (ofc if we didnt have crat), but -2,3k dmg for a means huge help for that shorter time.

  8. #768
    For such duration+immunity it should be at least 5k, since all end lvl bosses does 10k dd 12~14k crit ;o
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Debuffs.. for me mp never was a debuffer. For solo we had few, but in all, nothing realy useful. Expect nsd, rest was too small or got overwrited easly, therefore rarely useful. Right now ppl whine for mostly useless nanos. Just to have something they can spam and say "im useful, i spam nanos" but they never saved a big raid from whipe. (or made tank's / doc's life easier). Its a fact, and i think as main raid leader on lots of pande and sec42 raid i got the experience to say this. On big raids mp meant 1% help, or even less.

    Instead of being debuffer, i wanna be team supporter. The new soothing spirit perks that gives 3,9k hp-nano / min will be nice.
    This is gunna sound like trolling, but in truth its not meant to be taken this way. I am being 110% honest by saying, its not a fact at all.

    For solo, our debuffs were important because our pets do not have the mitigation present (outside of poor healpet heals) to long term tank many important tough mobs. The usefulness of our debuffs is entirely present in teaming situations, if you can find the stomach to spam them consistantly to all mobs within mongo range of the tank. You can save raids from wiping easily, if you use your debuffs smartly. It's not a fact at all. I've saved raids on several occasions by making sure that 5-6 mobs did not do enough damage to kill tanks that were pre-210. Pande and in APF's in particular, we often may need to swap to a debuff role in order to save key members of that raid. The less damage that key profs take, means that they can stick around and "spam heals/spam mongo so they are useful".

    Our debuffs, despite being less then spectacular can be quite useful. The fact that makes them seem to go unnoticed is that no one gives a particular s**t anymore and I check NCU targets 100% of the time I raid, when I am on my MP. I am meticulous about whos doing what sort of help where, and while our debuffs seem slight.. over time they can mean the difference between phats and wipes.

    If these debuffs are actually improved, I doubt anyone will still give a s**t, but its still necessary to keep them updated. Don't condemn them because they mean nothing to you personally, because there are lots of people who actually do use their debuffs to do something ...as you call... "useful" with their mp's. I cant find a reason to condemn pistol/bow/shield/nukers or any other flavour of mp's because someone other then myself might actually feel they already have a useful setup with these choices and it fits their playstyle. If you condemn debuffers and nukers, then you are automatically publically negating their contribution to the profession as a whole. That is kinda lame.

    If someone is merely picked for raids based solely upon the grounds of nano-regen, then I'd have a tough time picking an MP over NT. Imo, MP's are meant to be more then just a one trick pony. You are in fact, a team supporter. It's just that people today in this game can't be arsed to care about the MP toolset because 1% of the people who play MP's heroically get absolutely no notice because they are drowned out by the other 99% who level them AFK in kite teams as buff dispensers.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Jul 27th, 2011 at 19:30:12.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  10. #770
    If you had a crat along, then you actually made your raid worse by debuffing. Lovely, huh?

  11. #771
    It really is being in the same nano-line as the Crat debuffs that limits our damage debuffs so much. If they stacked with rather than over-wrote the vastly more useful init debuffs, I think we'd have a lot easier time getting teams. If we kept the DD debuffs we've got now and Crat debuffs were moved to the UBT line (as they were in the last doc), that alone would go a long way toward making us useful in endgame teams.

  12. #772
    Btw, our DD debuff nanoline should have 2 diferent nanos at least. One huge debuff (more than 2.3k seriously) with current nanodoc DD debuff system. And other with low debuff (1.5k maybe?) AoE (not so big radius) with longer duration (30s~1min) w/o immunity. Usefull in pvp, usefull in pvm raids, usefull in solo, not freaking OP and, since DD debuffs blocks redebuff, its a smart way to deal with then: you choice what you want, depends of situation.

    Same above should be appied to nano dd/healing eff debuffs and NSD. And for the God's sake, give us back unmakes/dominates with nerfed duration and immunity! Cool smart debuff shouldt be deleted.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    One huge debuff (more than 2.3k seriously) with current nanodoc DD debuff system.
    How much debuffing is enough?

    In current game, many encounters are q/afk for most of the raid/team because there's so much debuffing. Unless you require an active toolset (EG: shades), have to pay attention (EG: enfos, docs), there's not much to do.

    I've used MP debuffs to save myself or a small (or underpowered) team many a time, but in a decent 6 person team or larger raid the amount of debuffing available makes our "small" (relatively speaking) debuffs fairly pointless. So it becomes /pet attack; q; then spam specials/perks/nukes. Not real challenging.

    The base problem doesn't lie with our debuffs being too small, but there being so much available debuffing in game relative to mob strength that increasing our debuffs to everyone else's level would effectively shut down the mob completely if you could get a couple of profs in. Mobs have already been trending in that direction, hence FC's decisions on immunity and resists to many debuffs.


    I've always thought that there should be a PvP and a PvM version of nanos (that is, same nano just different effects for PvP and PvM). It's very difficult to balance the two concurrently, and that would solve a lot of the issues we're having. For PvM we could have longer (up 100% of the time?) but weaker (1k-2k) damage debuffs where encounters are much longer and reducing even a small amount of damage adds up significantly over time. For PvP we could have more powerful damage debuffs that last a shorter period of time.

    It's not uncommon for a PvM encounter to last a couple minutes. If a mob hits once every 3 seconds, that's 20 hits per minute. If our damage debuff was 2k, that'd be 120k damage reduced over three minutes, which is quite a lot.

    PvP encounters almost never last that long (except perhaps when Doc's are involved...). If you figure 30 seconds for a typical PvP encounter, then 2k would only reduce damage by around 10k, which is not very much (especially when player burst damage is taken into consideration).

    That's why for PvP encounters a shorter length but more powerful debuff is almost required to be meaningful.

  14. #774
    Bubba: i did same too few times when it was needed: spamming dmg debuff. But its realy rare i had to do that. In solo/small group fight yea they are useful.

    But what Ebag said is more common: we cant use it coz crat, or would be nearly useless.

    And TBH i want to be useful in good teams with good players.. and not in some lower lvl team that thinks coz they got some lvls by kite they can do apfs or whatever. Its nice to help our the lowbies and tell them im uber.. but i want to be same good as others in endgame encounters with the decent team that used to do them.
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Jul 27th, 2011 at 23:07:22.

  15. #775
    Personally I think it might be nice to have a weak AOE damage debuff that you can maintain all the time and a stronger single target damage debuff that has a higher stacking order so it would overwrite the AoE one, again maintainable all the time but only on one target at a time.

    That way you'd have to choose whether to debuff a group of mobs, or to debuff one strong er target. It would also mean there was a benefit to multiple MP's along in a raid as one could handle the AoE debuffing while the others picked off the nastier mobs with single target debuffs.
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
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  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    If you had a crat along, then you actually made your raid worse by debuffing. Lovely, huh?
    If you had a crat along, you should realize that you are supposed to use your brain and not use that particular debuff.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  17. #777
    Also i can image a 2,5-3k AOE debuff for 10-15 secs with a 5-10 mins cooldown. It would be a real emergency nano to save the raid, and it wouldnt change the pvm balance, just help for a short time like Guardian. Also it would be fun in pvp.

    If we count other prof's AOE stuffs (enfo stuns, crat fear, fix 30 mins snare, nt blind) this short dmg debuff with such a cooldown wouldnt be OP at all.

  18. #778
    On paper MP's are really pretty powerfull in current game mechanics. However reality sets in after you get AS/SA/FA/Fling/Brawl/Burst/FA/Dimach. Not to mention the slew of perk attacks.

    I think if our dmg debuffs could be increased to say 1k-2k that would be fantastik. Compared to say TMS or nullity sphere with a 60sec duration wouldn't be unfair. Or layer dmg debuffs like trader drains wouldn't be bad either.

    Maybe an upgrade for dominates considering trader drains affect sooo many skills why can't we debuffs nano skills 300-500 pts?

    Those ideas wrong route? How about giving mezz pet Curse of chronos proc along with mezz? Or let mezz pet debuff dmg also? Compared to UBT i dont think thats too much.

    Id love heal pet to have more health so its not such a easy target to kill in pvp. Of course i'd love better resistance to roots/calms for all MP pets since those are supposed to be our primary tools.
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  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Maybe an upgrade for dominates considering trader drains affect sooo many skills why can't we debuffs nano skills 300-500 pts?
    Agreed. But sadly they removed Dominates from MP toolset
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #780
    We get -300 nanoskill debuff in new nuke. Why thats not enough?

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