MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

[-Klod-]

Well, they are weapons after all, not nanos.

They were "weapons" back then also, so?

Unique is there so you wont be able to use 2 at once as they go into both hands.

Yeah, I know but, why? Not like it will greatly unbalance the gameplay or something.

[Questra]

Frankly, who will be able to kill a TL3/4/5 MP ?

The same people as before. Enfos and NR agents with defensive setups. Just not traders now.

Your question used to be "Who will be able to kill a TL3/4 trader/enfo" to which the answer was similarly scarce.

MP twinks will have a few seconds of prime defense

- NSD being 7 seconds, damage debuff being 10 seconds

MPs will no longer be able to shut down a prof we worry about getting alphaed by (enfos) for 5 minutes with one dominate.

MPs will no longer be able to spam CoC at TL3 to stop targets mid-alpha.

And MP evades will remain similar to what they were before since there is more AAD on the shield but MPs will no longer be able to twink on high ql Parry sticks for an extra 60-90 evade.

As for traders and NTs, they will no longer be able to instantly shut down pet professions with the click of one button.

MP vs NT fights at TL3/4 now will be a few seconds of the NT being disabled (though NTs have 1k+ NR at those levels and MPs have 800-1k nanoskills, so that's not even set in stone) and the NT rooting/calming the attack pet and trying to OD the MP's damage before the MP can uncalm pets and kill the NT.

It isn't balanced now, it will be soon.

[Gridpain]

It isn't balanced now, it will be soon.

So you are saying that now, enfo, trader , some agents(NR Agents killing a MPs ??) (and NTs, you didnt talk about NTs, but NT can still win vs MP most of the time, specialy at TL3) can kill TL3/4 MP (4 profs out of 14) but after balance, it will be some enfo (still want to see the -900 DD for 10 sec every 20 sec) and some agents (same remark.. + AS getting nerfed)
so some people from 2 out of 14 profs having a chance is "Balaced" ...

ok ...

[JustinSane4]

Just wanted to respond to a few of these points (several of which I agree with).

As to our nuke DPM, according my calcs we'll be able to sustain 100k dpm with burst dpm up to 200k. Not sure how well that will work on way or the other.

On point 3, I'm concerned about our defenses too, but would like to note that our DtP line stacks with rather than over-writes reflects.

Completely, totally agree on point 5- the bow needs a faster attack time to be useful PvP.

On 6, I agree the finishing nuke will be no more than situationally useful, but if we have short term +nanodamage modifier actions (we'll have to see if Trance survives), it could be useful when those are up, or immediately following perk nano-regain actions if it actually can end a fight.

On 8, the special effect nukes now debuff for -300 nanoskills at the top end vs. 150 for MiMQ and 120 for dominates, so that's basically what we're getting for the loss of dominates/unmakes.

On 9, I think we're supposed to choose between nuking and debuffing? Not sure, our nano-costs are truly brutal across the board.

On 10, how is QW nerfed? Looks the same as it is now to me?

On 11, yep, SoZ is a slightly nerfed Shield of Esa, and Shield of Esa is a 2hb staff. Go figure .

On 12: This one is actually interesting. Parry will be useable with all the melee creation weapons, so the parry buff will simply make those shields parry a bit better. Depending on implementation though, Parry could be a real defensive improvement

Immediate reaction:
1) Looks like PVM love mostly
2) Impossible to say the impact on PVP till it goes to a live server... looks like onebuttonspamming is going to be the new MP PVP playstyle (/pet attack, nukenukenukenukenuke). 4-8k unless its reflect piercing is going to be pretty pathetic given the nano drain. (I like how FC put DPS there helpfully on the side as if we could spam it like a normal weapon)
3) Do we have the defenses to be the outlast prof our offensive toolset requires of us? Without blockers or SoZ, 4x healing (4-5k?) is really still around the same previous damage mitigation in fact, but ofc without the ability to block spike damage. DtP at 20% is just the same like any of the reflect shields we've had from teaming a soldier before, i.e. not much. Which is why I think it's PVM love.
4) Notum scourge mesh will require a miniaturisation nano surely? Can't see doing RK dailies with that thing cluster****ing your screen
5) 3/3 attack on the bow? Come on, since when did SL-era slow as paintdrying weapons with no specials have any use in PVP whatsoever. On the plus side, I never thought FC would actually implement a creation ranged weapon so I guess that is something...
6) I doubt the finishing nuke will be much help, again the nano drain on all these things make them prohibitive: you have to spam them to do any significant damage, but you also have to keep your nanopool above 2/3 to put in an alpha to kill them (not to mention recharge getting in the way of actually "alphaing"). Anyone else see the contradiction in combat economy?
7) Cost debuff makes us our own worst enemy with our toolset tied to nano whereas "combat" profs will have no such drawbacks to their offense. Well prolly traders will still pwn us too. I still don't see FC implementing either solo-PVP-viability or a decent function in group PVP dynamics
8) Removing dominates - meh ok what did we get in exchange... er no idea - that just screws up our 1v1 tinkering fun in duels but really had little effect in mass pvp except to pwn n00bz who never fought traders
9) Desecrations still essentially useless for their combination nanocost (now going to be much more important in the MP combat economy) and short duration
10) Not sure why QW was nerfed when everyone can simply cast a hoverbike and there's nothing special about it except for looks anymore
11) Shield of Zset is 1HB req'd does that mean it's onehanded now? xD The difference between it and Asmodian (an 8 year old weapon) is really pitiful, given how it's supposed to be the reward of a 2007 endgame quest. Noticed Shield of Esa is now a 2hb stick. lol
12) What's up with the parry shields?
13) I appreciate that FC added a level 145 demon

So let's end on that positive note!

[Questra]

Seems some MP got annoyed by some NT too much and have enough whine power.

With trader nerf (good thing btw) + this nemesis, I wonder who will kill TL3/4/5 MP ...

The worst kind of troll is the one who tries to hide his trolling. You're trying to claim that I whined about the way NTs shut down an MP with two nanos.

I didn't, I had no part in that nano doc. You're wrong to troll me without knowing anything.

So you are saying that now, enfo, trader , some agents(NR Agents killing a MPs ??) (and NTs, you didnt talk about NTs, but NT can still win vs MP most of the time, specialy at TL3) can kill TL3/4 MP (4 profs out of 14) but after balance, it will be some enfo (still want to see the -900 DD for 10 sec every 20 sec) and some agents (same remark.. + AS getting nerfed)
so some people from 2 out of 14 profs having a chance is "Balaced" ...

ok ...

You didn't look at the nano costs on all those nanos. An MP at TL3/4 will have to choose between nuking or debuffing, and even then it will only be a few nukes or a couple debuffs.

Once the MP is low on nano, that's it. With extreme twinking, MP will be good twinks, but it's far from the "OMG ultimate lovechild" that you're whining about.

[Ciex]

Yeah, I know but, why? Not like it will greatly unbalance the gameplay or something.

Uummm, no idea :/ I thought that cumulative mods from 2 of those would be OP or something but it seems that 1hb weapons already have around 50% of what 2hb have.

[Xtremtech]

Klod,

It's a bit disconcerting to read your comparison of this document to another document that most of us never had the chance of seeing in the first place. It's like hearing only one half of an argument...

My guess on all of the creation attack ratings, is that they're there so that people can access the perk specials from weapon-based perks. And because people did ask for them.

Do you think that the Unique flag on the 1HB weapons could be a typo? Doesn't make sense to have a dual-wield requirement on the weapons if you can't effectively dual-wield them, I guess...

Why wouldn't you be able to use the Fling Shot on the creation bows?

I'm expecting Nano Doctorate to be radically changed too.

X

[Gridpain]

The worst kind of troll is the one who tries to hide his trolling. You're trying to claim that I whined about the way NTs shut down an MP with two nanos.

I didn't, I had no part in that nano doc. You're wrong to troll me without knowing anything.

You have a serious issue of egocentricity.

It will maybe be a cold shower for you, but you are not the only MP PvPing in AO.
You are not even the MP Ive fought the most on my NT.

Get over yourself.

[Leduc69]

GJ JustinSane4 for the nice summ

I like it but,

3/3 for the creation bow is way toooooooooooo much and make it useless for the ip cost
we have a lot of bow spec attack support (close to +400 with this bow and the Masterpiece Ancient Manual Aiming Aid) but only albtraum special arrows at TL7 (and pvp only) ? creation arrows would have been great (pve and pvp).
If we want to try the bow setup we have to ip bow+fling+bowspec+rangeinit, all dark blue skills, all that for that ? :/

I don't know if more DD and more heal will help MPs to find teams more easely (our damage debuf and nsd got nerfed tho..).
I would love to see some nano regen, %heal or %nanodamage aura to make us more teamable

I will have to put Ip on nanopool now NOOoooooooooo ! ^^

my 2 cent (for now)

[Blackcradle]

Well, as usual this thread has already been handed to the retards. Only the trolls are being responded to while any contructive feedback or questions are readily ignored as per usual, despite claims on the first page about being constructive.
So I will ask once again: About the Damage-to-Pet thing: Does this line only affect the attack pets health? Or is there an order? What's the story there?

[lainbr]

Typing a wall of text with all my impressions dissecated and what I think need changes.

Nukes

Will be amazing if new perk Trance will be keep as it is in current perk docs.

Special Effect Nukes / Mind Quakes

Its almost perfect. Cannot be dumb spammable but you can keep the debuff running in one target forever. Its pretty OK on end lvl;

But I will sugest a bit bump in lower nanos debuffs. We completely lost Dominates/Unmakes, so we deserve a bit more debuff power on lower nanos.

Base Nukes

=D Finally some nuke power. And I bet the 4s cooldown here is to prevent us to od everybody in pvm >.>.

Alpha/Finishing Nukes

Massive nanocost, which is ok for Alpha/Finishing Nuke with 20s cooldown. Its not like we gonna spam it. But its not really an Alpha/Finishing Nuke in pvp. (Yup, I have exactly the same opinion on both nukes.

Nano ShutDown

100~90% Def check - Good. All the rest - Bad.

Who made this nanodoc clearly didn't think about pvm. Give it 56s duration in pvm and tweak down the immunity to 14s; so it will be on 1/3 of time in pvp and 80% in pvm.
EDIT: Keep 7s duration. Immunity should be 14s and be casted only on players, leaving the PvM good where the time when the mob is debuffed will depends on player reaction and how many nano he can waste.

Also, removes NSD removers in Nanodoctorage <3

LE Nemesis

HELL YEAH! I couldnt think better.

Nanocost Debuffs

Finally they will be usefull!!!! 3.2k NaCost in end ones is a bit to much, but bearable;

ROFLMAO. Bump Notum Rejection in everything. Almost pointless 2 nanos be so near in requirements and debuff power. Something around 1.5k requirement, debuffing 30% NaCost. (Or make the lower one from Notum Rejection and new Notum Rejection as I said. Just remembered it is a fr00b nano).

Nano Damage and Healling Power Debuffs

No cooldonw, so I presume its spammable. And target get 20s immunity after debuff wears off. Almost OK;

But I would preffer 10s immunity instead of 20s.
EDIT: Keep 10s duration and 20s immunity; and make the immunity be casted only on players, leaving the PvM good where the time when the mob is debuffed will depends on player reaction and how many nano he can waste.

EDIT: Btw, there are no diference between Enfeebling Radiance and Disabling Light. It's this a typo?

Damage Debuffs

The tree lines got merged and now debuffs more. AWESOME!;

10s duration and 20s immunity? WTF?!;

Get rid of immunity (Hell, since when its more OP than init debuffs?) tweak up the duration to 15~20s and keep the impossibility to recast on same target while it doesnt wear off.
EDIT: Keep 10s duration. Immunity should be 10s too and be casted only on players, leaving the PvM good where the time when the mob is debuffed will depends on player reaction and how many nano he can waste.

NaCost Reduction and Nano Interrupt Modifier Buffs

TYVM! 4h Duration FTW! Nothing else to add

Evade Buffs

FINALLY!!!!!!!! =************** /hug

Nanoskill Buffs

^^ I liked the idea to merge our Mochies/Infuses/Mastery/Teachings with Odin's Eyes;

But I would prefer current doc Mochies/Infuses/Mastery/Teaching with current ingame Odin's. So bow AS setups (if they survive) will not cry about hotswaps to cast pets.

Odin's Eyes

=D Amazing icons (TY Docaholic!) You can ever notice that its diferent eyes ;

But keep then as they are now Weapons setups deserve to be viable w/o loads of swaps.

Damage to Pet

(Jumped NP buffs, but ty for bump then);

=D Amazing to see it already being implemented. And awesome cause it's easily removable if you dont want;

Only think I could add is to give us at least to 30% DtP instead of 20% max.

EDIT: Since the DtP go to all pets, transfer 33% of DtP DD, instead of 100%. So, each 3 DD DtP'd will hit each pet of 1 DD. (Bad english here, I didnt managed a better way to make it undestandeable)

DoT Resistance Buffs

Wondering if its usefull. Prolly yeah, since Malp depends on DoT A and NT nuke power depends on NT DoT. Need to think more.

Quantum Wings, SL Warps, Anchors and Summon Crystals

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!! (/me is waving, jumping and shouting out of lungs)

Summon Weapons

1hb Shields

SZet Nub shield huge, HUGE nerf. I would be lieing if I said I didnt love it, but ever I think the nerf was a bit too much;

500 AAD would be better. Since it lost reflects, I see no problem with the AAD;

Also, bump a bit the snare/root resistance on Roundy shields: around 20~25% resistance on top ones and keep 10% on lowers (or keep all in 20~25% :P);

Other shields are OK.

1hb Staves

Almost OK. Just keep Poisoned as a DoT instead of a punny single hit. Also make then 1/1 or 1.5/1.5 instead of 2/2.

2hb Staves

3/3 attack/recharge?! Are you joking? 1.5/1.5 or 2/2 would be better.

Bow

OMG BOW!!! And with Fling Shot? ;

But 3/3 is crap, make 1.5/1.5 or 2/2 and I'm ok with it;

Also, any changes on Special Arrows? And... no Creation Special Arrows?

Pet Special Buffs and Pet Procs

Awesome! Now those special buffs stay on pet with any creation on, right?

And pet procs is so damn nice The only problem I see is that they aren't easy swappable. What if i wanna change from taunt to aad/aao debuff? I need to recast pet? :x

Pet Damage Buffs

2min duration, improves pet aggressiveness... and... EVOCATION OF MADNESS!!!! ROARRR!!! Hell I liked it >.>

Pet Root and Snare Reductions

TYVM!

Summon Attack Pet

*Stunned*

P.s.: Bow AS MPs are crying right now (with the 2.5k requirement).

Summon Heal Pet

*Stunned*

Summon Mezz Pet

No Utility pet?

WAIT! AoE Mezz in pvm and AoE Root in pvp? Am I reading it wrong?

P.s.: You got hit by 15000 of wall of text damage.

[Xtremtech]

I'm hoping that the existing Bow Special arrows will be seriously improved in the itemisation improvements - and that there will be some new arrows added too. I'd have preferred to see Creation Arrows - but seems that isn't to be.

Profs: Are you guys going to be collating the feedback from the thread somewhere? So that it all gets picked up and fed back to the devs? Just askin'

X

[Xtremtech]

Well, as usual this thread has already been handed to the retards. Only the trolls are being responded to while any contructive feedback or questions are readily ignored as per usual, despite claims on the first page about being constructive.
So I will ask once again: About the Damage-to-Pet thing: Does this line only affect the attack pets health? Or is there an order? What's the story there?

Perhaps the profs don't know the answer? It takes time to pass questions through to devs and get an answer back you know? And I'd imagine they'll collect questions/feedback together and then get the devs to answer in one go, rather than in dribs and drabs.

For what it's worth... when it's been talked about in the past - we've mostly talked about it going to the attack pet... I can't say that I've seen a dev post specifics either way really.

X

[Agentkay]

MP professionals rework the pet stat, I still need these Random pet summon possible,

Copied from the post i did b4..........


Regarding Pet summoning, are MP still stuck in the cookie cutter 3 pets setup like "Attack Pet + Heal pet + Mezz/debuff pet"

I really do not like this idea. I hope u guys allow MPs to summon any kind of pets combination as long as there are only 3 pets.

For example A MP could,

Summon 3 Attack pets as Damage setup.
Summon 3 heal pets as heal setup.
Summon 3 diff debuff pets setup.
or any combination(either 2 Attk pet+ 1 heal or 1 heal + 2 debuff etc) as long as there are only 3 pets.

Are we heading this direction or we are still the regular Attack pet, heal pet, debuff pet setup?

1) As for nano damage debuff, well I cant say much, I think hopefully the new "improve massive dmg NT nuke" is enough to do at least some reasonable dmg even with the debuff MP had. So no NT complain. *I dont have NTs anyway

2) Shield line for mocharm guard (Add AC + HP, + nano) - I think it is better to remove HP buff and put +nanoskill instead.

3) Self nanoskill buff for froob teaching/mastery is MISSING. make it 40/80 self.

[Mountaingoat]

Ninja doc post! Saw it before bed last night, but decided to comment in the morning.

Some exciting changes, and some less so.

All the good is pretty self explanatory. New pets (2500 MC/TS I love it!), more healing, new nukes, new +nanocost debuff, lots of tweaks on annoyingly long cast times, garden warp nanos all the way up to inf, and some sweet looking new icons.

The bad...

Alphas/damage are going to play a bigger role than debuffs for MP's in pvp now! I don't like this! Decidedly low fractional uptime on debuffs on top of already fighting NR? Removes most of the effectiveness of debuffs for 1 vs 1 fights. Terrible. A doctor for example needs all of 0.01 seconds to reach full hp no matter how low his hp gets.

There are two NSD perk removers available to all casters with their 10s temp immunity being "fixed", and now we get a 21s lockout on it too? How is this nano supposed to be effective? It will be at best mildly disorienting. This is now a 1s stun (assuming perk isn't used before NSD is even casted) with a 42s cooldown (again thanks to said perks) to all but the greenest of pvp'ers, and we still have to beat the persons NR in the first place. Are battle virus scanners still going to remove it in fight too? Our new +nanocost debuff is going to replace this new NSD as the more effective nano. Sad. Also, Is there a longer pvm duration to this nano that I'm not seeing?

The next gripe is with the, yet again, excessive cooldown on the -healeff% and -nanodam% nano. We should at least be able to break even on the duration vs. cooldown. If that means nerfing the percentages from 70 back down to 50 (today's debuff amount) then by all means do it. We are a debuff profession for god's sake, let's act like it.

The damage debuff. Only going to be up 1/3 of the time. Bad.

Shield of Zset users effectively lose 147 def rating, 30% reflects, and 210 NR while now getting to dual wield. Are the construct buffs ("pet special buffs: 854") going to be usable with any creation weapon (like today) or only with the mesmerising staff, heal staff, and redfire staff? Are they still going to cancel on zone?

Our def rating. Effectively 60 less than with SS going. Without using a shield, around 3.2k-3.3k. Still completely alpha-able. Is the damage to pet going to be permanent or be more like an emergency nano. If the latter, 20% dtp is pitiful against alphas. Also if it's an emergency nano, we won't have to target our pets to use it right? "Damage to pet multiplier: 100"...ouch. I can still see us having an issue with alphas, though 2s attack times on a lot of perks and a much improved heal pet may be the saving grace. Also the pet based -aao debuff.

The creation weapons are soooo slow.

The pet DoT resist survives rebalancing...? Joke?

Our teamability. New heal pet and halved recharge on the nano giving perk compounded with nanocosts for most every profession going way up should help. Our damage remains to be seen with such slooooow creation weapons. Are we supposed to be chaining our nukes?

To sum up my main criticisms, I'm unhappy with the extremely severe cooldowns on a lot of our debuffs. NSD is the only debuff that should have it's duration be less than or equal to it's cooldown (and not 1/4 less than it's up time ffs). The -healeff%/-nanodam% and damage debuff nanos should at least break even on duration vs. cooldown. The +nanocost should have a higher duration vs. it's cooldown (20/15). My opinion is that more often than not, our fights should be won with/because of debuffs and not merely straight damage. Our debuffs give us our fighting uniqueness, everyone has damage.

[Xtremtech]

And pet procs is so damn nice The only problem I see is that they aren't easy swappable. What if i wanna change from taunt to aad/aao debuff? I need to recast pet? :x

I think they over-wrie each other don't they? So you'd just cast the new one and it would replace the old one...

X

[Xtremtech]

Is the damage to pet going to be permanent or be more like an emergency nano.

Must be permanent - because they've given a mechanism to toggle it on and off again...

X

[JustinSane4]

I'm hoping that the existing Bow Special arrows will be seriously improved in the itemisation improvements - and that there will be some new arrows added too. I'd have preferred to see Creation Arrows - but seems that isn't to be.

Profs: Are you guys going to be collating the feedback from the thread somewhere? So that it all gets picked up and fed back to the devs? Just askin'

X

We're hoping that there will be additional special arrows added. This isn't straight from FC, but I rather suspect there will be.

We will collect and collate the feedback here, and I apologize to those I haven't responded to, but I'm at work today and limited in how much time I can divert. So until 5:00 PM (GMT-5) I probably won't be able to get much done that way - sorry .

[Phargus]

2) Impossible to say the impact on PVP till it goes to a live server... looks like onebuttonspamming is going to be the new MP PVP playstyle (/pet attack, nukenukenukenukenuke). 4-8k unless its reflect piercing is going to be pretty pathetic given the nano drain. (I like how FC put DPS there helpfully on the side as if we could spam it like a normal weapon)

Might want to take another look at the perk documentation With focused running nuke alpha will average ~23k pvp damage through rrfe in 3 seconds (+/- a little bit depending on setup). That's enough to kill a lot of people outright.

[Gatester]

The same people as before. Enfos and NR agents with defensive setups. Just not traders now.

Those dreaded NR toons with all those super OSB's post-balancing? Enforcers losing runspeed on rage making them as slow as an MP that can just kite in circles while the pet hits them will likely not be a threat on their own. Unless NR is adjusted to be more reliable as well, even 130% def check nanos at tl3 land approximately 90% of the time on raging enforcers because they rarely utilize aggdef.

I do not believe you have a solid grasp on the balancing as a whole, at least at lower levels.