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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #21
    Seems some MP got annoyed by some NT too much and have enough whine power.

    With trader nerf (good thing btw) + this nemesis, I wonder who will kill TL3/4/5 MP ...
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  2. #22
    Immediate reaction:
    1) Looks like PVM love mostly
    2) Impossible to say the impact on PVP till it goes to a live server... looks like onebuttonspamming is going to be the new MP PVP playstyle (/pet attack, nukenukenukenukenuke). 4-8k unless its reflect piercing is going to be pretty pathetic given the nano drain. (I like how FC put DPS there helpfully on the side as if we could spam it like a normal weapon)
    3) Do we have the defenses to be the outlast prof our offensive toolset requires of us? Without blockers or SoZ, 4x healing (4-5k?) is really still around the same previous damage mitigation in fact, but ofc without the ability to block spike damage. DtP at 20% is just the same like any of the reflect shields we've had from teaming a soldier before, i.e. not much. Which is why I think it's PVM love.
    4) Notum scourge mesh will require a miniaturisation nano surely? Can't see doing RK dailies with that thing cluster****ing your screen
    5) 3/3 attack on the bow? Come on, since when did SL-era slow as paintdrying weapons with no specials have any use in PVP whatsoever. On the plus side, I never thought FC would actually implement a creation ranged weapon so I guess that is something...
    6) I doubt the finishing nuke will be much help, again the nano drain on all these things make them prohibitive: you have to spam them to do any significant damage, but you also have to keep your nanopool above 2/3 to put in an alpha to kill them (not to mention recharge getting in the way of actually "alphaing"). Anyone else see the contradiction in combat economy?
    7) Cost debuff makes us our own worst enemy with our toolset tied to nano whereas "combat" profs will have no such drawbacks to their offense. Well prolly traders will still pwn us too. I still don't see FC implementing either solo-PVP-viability or a decent function in group PVP dynamics
    8) Removing dominates - meh ok what did we get in exchange... er no idea - that just screws up our 1v1 tinkering fun in duels but really had little effect in mass pvp except to pwn n00bz who never fought traders
    9) Desecrations still essentially useless for their combination nanocost (now going to be much more important in the MP combat economy) and short duration
    10) Not sure why QW was nerfed when everyone can simply cast a hoverbike and there's nothing special about it except for looks anymore
    11) Shield of Zset is 1HB req'd does that mean it's onehanded now? xD The difference between it and Asmodian (an 8 year old weapon) is really pitiful, given how it's supposed to be the reward of a 2007 endgame quest. Noticed Shield of Esa is now a 2hb stick. lol
    12) What's up with the parry shields?
    13) I appreciate that FC added a level 145 demon

    So let's end on that positive note!
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  3. #23
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Is sheol quest staff locked to 175 now and inf to 200? Sheol is lvl 100+ zone if i remember correctly, those staffs shouldnt be level locked st all.

    There is a dead zone between lvl 116 and 160 in terms of creation weapons. Lvl 150 is very popular, dont make people stick with hecknoob time weapons there, 160 locks should be lowered to 150.

    Creation bows and 2hb staffs … slooooooow, veeeery sloooow. I doubt anyone will ever use them, at last st lower levels. They should be 1,5/1,5, maybe 2/2 if they really want them to be slow but 3/3 really kills the idea. Why would i ever use 3/3 weapon that buffs nuke dmg a bit if i could use 1 or even 2 1/1 weapons?

    How fast are shields, i cant see their attack/recharge.

    Is dmg debuff locked somehow or it can be spammed?

    Zset shield looks bad, the difference between it and classic red shield is way to small.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  4. #24
    woot, Mp nanodocu!

    Only slight issue for me is the 1k/sec heal on the new pet, is that not huge? or am I missing something?

  5. #25
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Belph View Post
    , is that not huge? or am I missing something?
    Its is but you are missing that there are no reflects on zset :P

    BTW unless im missing something this document doesent include one vital thing: team based nano regeneration buffs, preferably auras.
    Last edited by Ciekafsky; Mar 22nd, 2011 at 09:39:10.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  6. #26
    Shields are 1/8 still by the looks of things.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  7. #27
    Gah... I hate spread-sheets. It's probably going to take me a while to work my way through it.

    First glance for me... and I'm looking for what role we'll take in PvM. From what I can see... there's little new in the way of team contribution - and debuffing has been overall reduced as far as I can tell... or at best made a bit bursty. Couple that with the big nukes and it looks to me like the MP is a big DPS profession now, with a few utility bits and bobs.

    I'm a bit sad about that. I'd hoped that the MP would get more useful on the debuff side in PvM... not less useful. And I'd hoped that we'd get pointed more at an 'all-rounder' profession, like the advies got, with some clear roles... but instead the MP is really going to be a DPS role now, I reckon.

    That said... as long as the attack pets keep up with this kind of change, then the MP will be an excellent DPS contribution - perhaps even one of the best in PvM, if they can keep their nano going reasonably well.

    On the nukes:

    Nukes look very good. I like that it's a mix of fixed values and range values on them. I also like the change to just MatCre as attack skill on the base/Alpha nukes. If you chuck them on with the nanodamage available, especially if you train the new Trance perk-line, then there's some very, very serious damage to be done with them.

    I don't see the 1 sec cap on the special effects nukes in the spread-sheet though. Do you know something we don't DR?

    On the Mez Pet:

    AoE!!!! Yay!!! That'll actually offer a bit more team utility and will be great in solo PvM. I'm guessing that it will be a good bit more useful in PvP too.

    I'm a bit disappointed not to see the different utility effects that were suggested in the sneak peek though.

    On Dmg/Init and NanoDmg/Heal debuffs:

    I get that extra power has been traded off for less up-time. You get a really massive debuff for 10 seconds. But it seems to me that with 10s on and 20s off, the damage debuffs actually end up giving a lower average damage reduction over 30s than the present versions! That can't be right surely?

    And I'm looking at Doc and Crat Init/Dmg debuffs and seeing long durations with short cool-downs. Even trader NR/AC/Skils/Damage debuffs have longer durations than cool-downs.

    I'm also not seeing crowd control in the other documents, that can only be maintained on a single mob.

    I dunno... as I said... I get that the MP debuffs are strong and that you can rotate them a bit to keep some kind of debuff on a target all the time. But imho they're not really any stronger than the Doc/Crat init debuffs - or calms. Yet we get only 1/3 uptime - whereas they get to comfortably keep theirs up all the time, even with a couple of resists thrown in....


    On NSD:

    I'm reading through the document and it occurs to me that you can:

    0s - Cast NSD for shutdown

    7s - Cast 70% NanoDamage/Healmod debuff

    17s - No debuff

    21s - Cast NSD for shutdown

    28s - Cast 70% NanoDamage/Healmod debuff

    etc

    So you should be able to maintain some considerable level of nuke damage reduction for all but 4s in each 21 second rotation.... which is 80% of the time.

    For Sloobs+ you can also add in the damage debuff to that rotation and be maintaining a good level of overall damage reduction at all times on a boss. I can live with that.

    Damage to Pet

    Excellent news on this. Looks like a straight pass-through that will stack with RRFE and together with the massive healing we now have for the pet, this should work out to be an excellent defence addition.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 22nd, 2011 at 09:58:50.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #28
    On creations:

    Creation Bow is great! Attack skills of 100% Weapon + 25% TS is great! So you get ranged damage, good AR, big extra heals, attack/mez pet buffs, extra Nano Damage and extra Nano AR by wielding the Creation Bow. It's a pretty good package.

    Weapon-speed on Creation Bow/2HB weapon is just too slow. For PvM, it's OK... but for PvP on the Creation Bow in particular, where you're mostly full-def... that slow speed just isn't going to cut the mustard.

    Top level shields are too weak. You get Shield of Asmodian at level 150 or less... then wait until 215+ to get Shield of Zset and it gives you just 23 extra AAD, +100 NanoInit and +80 AC? If +299 AAD is balanced at level 150... then 323 cannot be balanced at level 215. There's just no way.

    Construct Nanos are really strong now...

    No Creation Arrows? Did they say anything about improving the existing bow special arrows?
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #29
    On Pet Procs:

    Snare proc on attack pet is good news. Taunt for PvM is great too.

    I really like the AAO/AAD debuff proc too. That'll be great for soloing I reckon.

    The + damage proc is probably best for team PvM?

    Nice that there's a selection and nice that they'll have real uses in different scenarios.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  10. #30
    Just wanting to double-check....

    It looks like DtP stacks with soldier reflect buffs - in that they're in a different line. So we'd essentially get a total of 50% reflects with DtP + RRFE.... without it being tied to using a creation.

    Am I right there?

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:42:55.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  11. #31
    And then the big thing..... Nanocost.

    These look in line with the very heavy nanocosts we've seen in other documents.

    I get that FC want us to need to think more about casting a nano, because of wanting to manage nano... but keep in mind that we've already seen a lot of our debuffs go down to a maximum of 1/3 uptime. If we're running out of nano as well... then the actual up-time is going to be a lot lower than that.

    We've also seen the dominates disappear - leaving us with the Mind line nukes as the main source of consistent nanoskill debuffs.... but if the nanocosts are so heavy - we'll struggle to even keep them up.

    We have some buffs for Nanopool and Nanocost available in shields, weapons, perks, buffs etc... I'd imagine that some of the previously lesser used perk-lines might become more interesting in terms of building casting focussed builds.

    Are there going to be any changes to caps? I guess I'd like to see the breed-caps go away if the nanocosts are going to be this high - or be raised for casting professions.

    On the up-side... the heavy nanocosts on all of the new nano documents mean that the Nanocost debuffs might actually have some bite now.

    I think there needs to be a bit of rethinking of the debuff durations, keeping in mind that maintaining the ones we have will already be a huge nanodrain on us and we're unlikely to see even the 1/3 up-time that's built in already.

    I'd still like to see us have the ability to change the mez pet into a nano heal pet.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  12. #32
    Oh lord... I forgot to mention the massive increase to the evade buffs! +250 where we used to get +60. And +150 for the pets.

    Can't complain about that.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  13. #33
    Asside from the removal of Curse of Cronos everything in the document is pretty much what I expected. Huge evade boost is love.

    No PVP cries about NSD then? I think these numbers will be just fine when considering all the other changes now. PVM just needs adjustments to make trader+MP nanoskill debuffing adequate "shutdown" of mobs and that should be covered as well.

    The attack times on creation weapons should be 1.7/1.7 and 2.0/2.0 or 1/3.5 and 1/4.5 for 1hb and 2hb respectively. Those speeds are still technically slow enough to not make their damage values too high, and a crit scope would make 1/1 even at full agg highly difficult to achieve. The shields should honestly not interfere with attacking as well.

    The heal pet "healing" is exceptional, certainly makes MP's viable support healers when including that INCREDIBLE damage debuff change. In most cases that puts a target at 0 damage.

    Also, I think I lost about a minute of time that completely disappeared when I saw the Notum Scourge in the document lol.


    Great changes overall, some practical use will likely call for a few changes but either way I am more than satisfied. Guess we can all be happy which of the trolls were wrong

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    The heal pet "healing" is exceptional, certainly makes MP's viable support healers when including that INCREDIBLE damage debuff change. In most cases that puts a target at 0 damage.
    INCREDDBLE is a weak word.

    This is nice addition for MP in PvM, but it's fairly stupid in PvP in addition to nuke debuff and more evades and better heal and damage to pets ....

    Frankly, who will be able to kill a TL3/4/5 MP ?
    // Break time //

    /\/\ Newcomers Alliance General and LMAA co-founder /\/\
    Froob for 3 years :
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    Sloob since 2009 :
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciekafsky View Post
    Its is but you are missing that there are no reflects on zset :P
    Aye, only nubs used shield anyway!

  16. #36
    Let see...

    Good job on NOT nerfing the QW.

    Bad job on creation weapons (1hb/2hb).

    Why on earth they have to be 100% weapon + 25% TS? They should have stayed at 80% nano skill (MC makes more sense then TS) + 20% weapon skill (except bows, they are fine with weapon skill as a main). Also, what's the deal with "unique" flag on 1hb sticks?

    Very bad job on creation shields.

    Those in draft document actually looked good, even though they were nerfed as well. Slow attack speed (5/5) and actual damage template (a bit higher then 1hb sticks, but with 0 crit chance) would be nice. AAD mods are nerfed way too much. Mods on them are crappy in general (10% root/snare resistance on parry/HP shields? - make it 25% at least, to make up for remaining crappy mods those shields have).

    Nukes

    No 10% stun proc on base nuke? We need it, especially now when we lost CoC. :'(

    Bows

    No creation arrows with special debuffs? Why fling shot reqs if we can't use it (pointless IP sink)? Or can we?

    Pets

    60 seconds cooldown is seriously wrong, 15 sec should do. Pet damage type - poison damage override. Please make it a separate nano, or give us a better choice of switching back to melee if needed. 2500 nano skills for end game pet? Hell no, not with 0 nano skill gain. 2300 reqs are fine enough (think of them bow users who will use mostly weapon based armor - you don't need countless whines about gear swap like you had from engies, now, do you). Oh, and very nice of you to add some more pets to the line.

    NSD

    Seriously!? If so, Nano Doctorate perkline should be drastically changed.
    Last edited by -Klod-; Mar 22nd, 2011 at 13:00:38.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #37
    nvm
    // Break time //

    /\/\ Newcomers Alliance General and LMAA co-founder /\/\
    Froob for 3 years :
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  18. #38
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gridpain View Post
    Frankly, who will be able to kill a TL3/4/5 MP ?
    Same people who kill them today? NSD and incompetence loss is a huge nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Bad job on creation weapons (1hb/2hb).

    Why on earth they have to be 100% weapon + 25% TS? They should have stayed at 80% nano skill (MC makes more sense then TS) + 20% weapon skill (except bows, they are fine with weapon skill as a main). Also, what's the deal with "unique" flag on 1hb sticks?
    Well, they are weapons after all, not nanos. Unique is there so you wont be able to use 2 at once as they go into both hands.
    Last edited by Ciekafsky; Mar 22nd, 2011 at 13:15:08.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  19. #39
    Ive got to ask since the bow looks pretty good except for its attack/recharge... Does its damage stack up in line with wearing the for instance 1hb weapons?

    The Zset AAD looks to have changed into the more reliable evades so Zset shield users of current wont be going back to much on evades. They will however ofcourse loose their reflects. But then put on DtP and ur close to old again.

    Pets look great but indeed like someone already asked, where did the different mezz possibilities go? Once i fix internet at home, ill put my questions down for everything in the document, just had to see it before i lack way to much info :P

    Now back to home, uni internet is great but appearantly theres something wrong with my ISP, enjoy the discussions

    Ow and Awsome on QW !!!!!
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciekafsky View Post
    Same people who kill them today? NSD and incompetence loss is a huge nerf.
    Today, traders and NTs kill MP at this range, and some high AR enfos.
    With the nsd that will land now, and the -nano damage debuff, NTs wont scratch MPs, and traders can not desable MPs like before with their nerf.
    Add to this the -DD for fighting enfos...
    and better heal, and damage to pets...

    NSD at this TLs is not a nerf, it's a boost.

    Currently, at 160% check, it didnt land, or very rarely.
    // Break time //

    /\/\ Newcomers Alliance General and LMAA co-founder /\/\
    Froob for 3 years :
    Gridpain, Nfurter, Slayie, Forcedevente, Asafart, Theshrike, Whipingwillow, Malaucrane, Karmapolice.

    Sloob since 2009 :
    Coredumped,Needleworkr,Weepinwilljr,Gridpainjr,Bet amale,Lackwit,Dusttodust, Ouvreboite,Boohoohoo,Asafurt,Whatsthat,Aziraphale
    220, 220, 200, 164, 150, 116, 110, 82, 70, 57, 40, 21 ...

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