Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    That being said, I actually think your damage debuff is looking rather nice. For 50%* of the time, you can bring down a mob's damage by a huge chunk.
    Its 1/3. 10s Duration 20s immune. Also, as Klod said, the nanocost is HUGE. ^^ We cant keep a full crowd full debuffed all the time, different of crat/doc init debuff.

    What I asked is: Why our DD debuff is under so low duration and have this damn immunite in pvm if Init debuffs, which are stronger, have full 1min duration w/o immunite system?

    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Your entire nano doc looks rather nice, actually. We're already discussing on how we crats should steal of some your toys and add them to our toolset.
    Ofc, you have 4k+ AAD While we will be stucked with 3.2k.

    I just read the crats foruns :3 as always. You are trying to steal our DtP, which we didn't complained at all. ^^ Will you gave up of your CiB and your 4k AAD to get it? If yes, feel free to get.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Its 1/3. 10s Duration 20s immune. Also, as Klod said, the nanocost is HUGE. ^^ We cant keep a full crowd full debuffed all the time, different of crat/doc init debuff.

    What I asked is: Why our DD debuff is under so low duration and have this damn immunite in pvm if Init debuffs, which are stronger, have full 1min duration w/o immunite system?



    Ofc, you have 4k+ AAD While we will be stucked with 3.2k.

    I just read the crats foruns :3 as always. You are trying to steal our DtP, which we didn't complained at all. ^^ Will you gave up of your CiB and your 4k AAD to get it? If yes, feel free to get.

    My bad about the duration. I figured the immunity was uploaded simultaneous with the debuff part, not at the end of it.

    Still, keep in mind these values are not final. what is final is that crats will no longer be a debuffer, and that MPs are set to take over that role. If, during testing, the damage debuff turns out to be, it'll likely be adapted.
    It'll never have a 1 minute duration however, since it would the living out of everything bar the high-end bosses.


    As for us stealing your;

    There's no real point to make too many comparisons between MPs and crats. You have healing, we have higher def. You have three pets, different functions, we have two pets/2 charms + bot. MPs are the very definition of emo-raging, crats are manly men.


    My main point was that the devs seem to be moving towards more synergy between weaponry and toolset. The new creation weapons are looking good, and the idea behind it is solid. Significant buffs on weapons that, while not as powerful as regular weapons, and w/o a load of special attacks, can still be wielded effectively without the need to your ip and equipment by raising dark-blue low-base skills and using weapons for which you have little to no support whatsoever.

    As Sterva said though, the crat doc was made early on, and is likely to be revamped at some point to reflect the advances made in the engi/MP docs. As it stands, though, MPs will have significantly better nukes (mostly due to the support you get for them) without the need to waste your entire ip pool and every single equipment slot for equipping and wielding your weapon.

    Since pets are still uncertain, that's all we can say bout it. I am however very much opposed to the new Notum Scrotum pet. It's a favored crat charm. Nerf.


    As for our reduced role, I don't really mind. Just as AS was always holding back developements to the 'support' profs, the insane amounts of init debuffs crats have currently are standing in the way of improvements to our toolsets. We'll still be the best calmers, and likely stay good in terms of DPS, whilst providing great buffs to the entire raid. If MPs are made useful as a debuffer, that's improvement, I'd say.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Mar 30th, 2011 at 15:22:16. Reason: removed obscenities.

  3. #303
    I do recognise, that Crat Init/Dmg debuffs going into the same line as the Doc ones sucks. We know your pain... as MPs have had to defer to Crat ones for quite some time now.

    But please keep in mind, that this is as much about team/raid contribution as anything else. One of the biggest MP issues has been that there is little reason to take an MP in a team/raid. As things stand:

    Crats have excellent CC, excellent PvM damage, AAO/AAD buffs, XP Buffs and will offer a fabulous addition to any team. If it's a team with an Advy/MA in heal stance healing instead of a doc... then they'll also offer great Init/Dmg debuffs.

    You're not going to find it hard to get teams.

    But MPs end up with less effective NSD than before, less effective Dmg/init debuffs than before, good but not excellent DPS, 3rd line healing and a mez pet - better than before but still not primary CC.

    We struggle to offer a good contribution now... to be frank, it's not going to improve... and may well suffer overall. A lot rides on the MP being really focussed on a DPS role - because we can't really fill any of the other standard Healing/CC/Tank roles as things stand.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 28th, 2011 at 13:35:22.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    @Gates: Advy can also fulfill a lot of roles and will still be able after the balancing. I think advy is wanted in raids and people even whine they will be too wanted after the balancing. I suppose the difference is that advy's are actually pretty good in those roles, while MP's aren't?
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    @Gatester Advs are all rounders that can do alot of thing, and are far better than MPs. And more desireable as well. MPS SHOULD BE LIKE NANOCASTERS ADVS
    Saying adventurers are more desireable in teams than MPs is like saying Herpes is more desireably than AIDS...sure it could be true but no one wants either one.

    Adventurers do not get teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    @Why Creation Weapons don't check NR as defence and NanoCInit as speed? They are notum made weapons!
    Nano Init is good but are you sure you want creation weapons checking NR? People have higher nano resist levels on average and AAD would be calculated in, which means you would be asking for a harder to hit defensive skill. This could be changed post balancing though, so we should put this one on an If and When situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    You do realize that crat init debuffs have been beat into a bloody pulp by FCs nerfbat, right? We can no longer provide any benefits in that regard if there is a doctor present, which somewhat narrows down our role as debuffer. As in, we no longer are one in virtually every team situtation.

    While I don't really mind this fact, we do after all bring plenty to a team in the form of auras, damage, mezzes and such, you might want to think twice before complaining about your debuffs using crat debuffs as the 'superior' example.
    Most people forget that Crats were dragged through the dirt in their balancing document. In fact, I am not even sure a crat could cast very long without a nano regain profession like MP's in the team.

    If the MP's main benefit is allowing the casters to continue to cast, then the debuffs become an extra reason to invite and MP and not the main reason.



    Therefore, I suggest %nano regain and not static values incorporated into some aspect of MP and possibly NT nano regain tools.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Adventurers do not get teams.
    Sure we do. "Ah, a secondary tank/healer - cool, take him."
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Most people forget that Crats were dragged through the dirt in their balancing document. In fact, I am not even sure a crat could cast very long without a nano regain profession like MP's in the team.

    If the MP's main benefit is allowing the casters to continue to cast, then the debuffs become an extra reason to invite and MP and not the main reason.
    We can't. Currently, my setup doesn't even allow me to IP nanopool. It isn't required at the moment, so it's fine. With the new nukes, though, even with IPd nanopool, you'll run dry in a matter of moments. And we have far less access to caster support than NTs/MPs, to boot.

    Which is why the current system of high requirement weapon based setups have zero synergy with all our new caster nanos.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Nano Init is good but are you sure you want creation weapons checking NR? People have higher nano resist levels on average and AAD would be calculated in, which means you would be asking for a harder to hit defensive skill. This could be changed post balancing though, so we should put this one on an If and When situation.
    Was it only perks for which it doesnt check AAD anymore then?

    @Crattey:

    Ur putting ur crat in a team with a doctor but for teams without a doctor ur -inits still work wonders. Wouldnt have been able to do Vortexx last time otherwise. Had a Crat, Engi, Soldier and Enfo (me the enfo) and the debuffs worked wonders. Sure its a bit of a slap in the face to loose the ability to ubernerf a target with a doctor around. But there are also options of teams without doctors, and thats one of the goals of rebalance, to not make every team or raid dependant on Enforcers and Doctors. So in my opinion in the overall picture it might actually be nice to be a crat after rebalance. Plus iirc u keep all those nice other additional teambuffs like AAD etc
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    Was it only perks for which it doesnt check AAD anymore then?

    @Crattey:

    Ur putting ur crat in a team with a doctor but for teams without a doctor ur -inits still work wonders. Wouldnt have been able to do Vortexx last time otherwise. Had a Crat, Engi, Soldier and Enfo (me the enfo) and the debuffs worked wonders. Sure its a bit of a slap in the face to loose the ability to ubernerf a target with a doctor around. But there are also options of teams without doctors, and thats one of the goals of rebalance, to not make every team or raid dependant on Enforcers and Doctors. So in my opinion in the overall picture it might actually be nice to be a crat after rebalance. Plus iirc u keep all those nice other additional teambuffs like AAD etc
    Correct me if i remember this wrong but doesn't Vortexx resist UBT completely? If it does, it will resist Malaise too after the balance and it's going to be the only init debuff for crats since tapes are nerfed to random debuffs.
    Aeliniyah Opifex Doc | Venkula Solitus Doc | Rohtoiivari Trox Doc | Yutheron Solitus Trader Ianamura NM Crat
    Technigyro Trox Enfo | Gizmoplex Trox Keeper | Icarya Opi MA | Vinetto Opifex Shade | Retku Solitus Engineer
    Geraplex Trox Sold | Tuulispaa Opifex Fixer | Wertion Solitus MP | Kemoplex Trox MA
    And a fleet of other alts...

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  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeliniyah View Post
    Correct me if i remember this wrong but doesn't Vortexx resist UBT completely? If it does, it will resist Malaise too after the balance and it's going to be the only init debuff for crats since tapes are nerfed to random debuffs.
    Shade -init seems to land on everything still, it also just last a few secs unless you keep hitting the target.
    Not that it has anything to do with crats, we're pretty much boned on regular ubt resistent bosses, but it got me thinking

    Anyway. the above statement is correct meaning that it won't be nearly as easy to keep bosses -init debuffed 100% of the time as it is now, still waiting for nt document, but perhaps they get some kind of bone in that department, it would be most welcome
    Don't you just hate this kind of ppl
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...rouscranus.htm

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    Was it only perks for which it doesnt check AAD anymore then?

    @Crattey:

    Ur putting ur crat in a team with a doctor but for teams without a doctor ur -inits still work wonders. Wouldnt have been able to do Vortexx last time otherwise. Had a Crat, Engi, Soldier and Enfo (me the enfo) and the debuffs worked wonders. Sure its a bit of a slap in the face to loose the ability to ubernerf a target with a doctor around. But there are also options of teams without doctors, and thats one of the goals of rebalance, to not make every team or raid dependant on Enforcers and Doctors. So in my opinion in the overall picture it might actually be nice to be a crat after rebalance. Plus iirc u keep all those nice other additional teambuffs like AAD etc
    Even without a doc in team, we're still loosing about half our init debuffs compared to what we can do now.

    But again, I don't really mind. We have plenty of uses already. I would rather see the nukes working properly and finally getting some weaponry to go with it than desperately bitching and complaining about every nerf, even though it is a huge one.

    Then again, I could also go the enfo/soldier route and throw up a massive storm of whines everything we loose out on something that might potentially remove us from the steamrolling wtfpwn buttonmash position we so clearly deserve Ah well...
    Last edited by Anarrina; Mar 30th, 2011 at 15:26:16.

  11. #311
    I think actually every profession is whining atleast a bit over what is removed, then again most of those professions arent as far behind on the rest as Mps are.

    @ Aeliniyah:
    Probably but thats entirely not my point

    Its about being usefull in a group and the debuff numbers claim that we'll have the ability to be usefull to the group 1/3rd of the time we spend in the group at maximum (taking into acount that the Healing percentage/Nanodamage percentage debuff and Nanocost debuff dont have much effect on most of the mobs out there.
    Instead of being usefull its sort of an emergency nano that if while soloing ur low hp that might be an option to survive, in a team in the case that may the tank be low hp because healing cant keep up for a second, u could theoretically safe him with the damage debuff. But the guarantees u get from relying on that debuff is minimal because of intermittend damage spikes in between that u cant cast it. For me they can take away the whole -init from the nano and just use the damage debuff alone in trade of making it a nano u can rely on.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    Was it only perks for which it doesnt check AAD anymore then?
    Yes, so far at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Then again, I could also go the enfo/soldier route and throw up a massive ****storm of whines everything we loose out on something that might potentially remove us from the steamrolling wtfpwn buttonmash position we so clearly deserve Ah well...
    The 220's whining about enforcers and soldiers are...exaggerating a bit? Its not the 220's that are hurt by the document, but a leveling enforcer will have a hard time being playable. Based on my soldier, the document would have made it easier to level so who knows who is right.

    It is not much different here. Most of the complaints seem a bit excessive to me and do not put much thought into the issues beyond "I don't like change". To be very honest, I would just be happy with the fact that MP's can actually regain their nano pool. I think that benefit is lost on a lot of people.

  13. #313
    Damn lots of posts!

    My biggest problem: new 220 pet will be UGLY!!! Fffs why a sourge? Wtb black-red rihwen! I realy loved the rihwen look and i dont wanna lose it!

    CoC helped me many times to finish a doc/adv and few other profs. Ill miss it

    But, having more heal power wont help us. Even know biggest problem is to survive an alpha. All profs (who based on alpha) has at least 10k dmg from perks, base hits (500-1000 dmg / hit) and spec attack Burst, AS, Fa, Sneak, Dimach (choose any of those 2). Without reflect (or even with rrfe) very hard to survive that ~5 seconds. All these profs have 3k+ AR , and having static 3k def as mp means you sacrifice lots of things (or using zset) and you wont be able to kill the target even if u survive.

    Based on that doc, seems we must push our hp over 20k so we can survive/run away and get healed back (same as engi now). That i would expect from perks is spec blocker/absorb/ "limber" perks. Ofc some MP specific perks, dont need to spam, but at least be able to use every 2-3 mins to survive alpha (like coccon). I always hated the 100-250 evade proc, u survive or not is based on luck all the time. I would like them removed and get a some nanodmg modifier proc or anything more useful. Imo, def (aka surviving ability) shouldnt be based on luck.

    Those mostly i like the new stuffs. I wonder if new nukes + pet dmg can replace 11sec AS.

    Ofc i watch MP from pvp view. For pvm, this all is huge improvement and i like it very much. For pvm, even with current perk setup would be fine so i would prefer a bit more pvp orientated perk support (like 5 spec block, 2-3 mins recharge).

    I like the idea as pets get more function not only dmg support. (I mean taunt ant snare)

    But, mezz pet always was messed up I wonder if a cratstun proc on these pets wouldnt be better? 2-3-4 secs mezz, with not too high chance of landing would help us. Mezz pet right now is more like useless, works in pvm a bit (on 1 add, and best on hecks, other mobs resist a lot) but in pvp most ppl just ignore them. If stun on pets too OP, Dev can remove later (like crat stuns) and give back the old buggy mezz pets

    Ahh and i nearly forgot! Yes, wtb mp as best nano-recharging prof in team! We cant do anything else, our dmg is (hopefully it will change) low, cant debuff much, and only 1 8h buff we can give, nothing more. So making mp for best nano giver prof would help us a LOT to get team invites!

    This is all for now Have fun!
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Mar 28th, 2011 at 18:16:11.

  14. #314
    As to our vulnerability to an alpha: Based only on the nano-doc, huge problem. However the perks are being re-visited also, and I'm quite optimistic we will end up with decent alpha defense there. If not, I'll join the raging at that time .

  15. #315
    Keep in mind many perks are getting a 2 second execution time, which should diminish the current buttonmashing rage a bit.

  16. #316
    I've got an idea on the Damage Debuff situation, and would like to see what everyone thinks of it.

    New line of nanos, same nano-line but lower stack order than the DD debuffs in the current doc, PvM only. They would have a 5 second cool-down, 60 second duration, 1 second recharge (identical to the Crat and Doc initiative debuffs). The top nano would debuff damage by 1,000 and initiatives by 250 (roughly equal to the -920 damage and -262 initiatives from the debuffs we have today) and could if necessary carry a large nano-cost.

    The thinking behind this suggestion: The damage de-buffs in this document really look to be vastly better in PvP rather than PvM, with particular utility against professions that use burst and full auto. Players in general have far lower damage per hit than the tougher PvM mobs, so much so that against players the current doc's DD debuffs are virtual regular hit shutdowns, whereas against tough PvM mobs it might be a 30% damage debuff.

    A recurring concern in the nano-doc discussion thread in the MP forum is that the proposed damage debuffs won't actually impact team PvM survivability. If the team can heal the tank enough to survive the 20 second immunity, it could probably heal the tank indefinitely without the debuffs at all. If it doesn't actually effect survivability, it doesn't actually help (and won't get us any team invites). On the other hand, a debuff with a 100% uptime would be useful - doctors and tanks prefer an even flow of incoming damage, and if we could offer a steady damage reduction they might actually invite MPs along for debuffs.

    The other problem that this would solve is that the DD debuffs in the doc are a nerf over those we have right now in PvM in total damage reduction/minute, and I don't think we actually deserved that nerf, or that it improves the game in any way.

    Opinions?

  17. #317
    On regular mobs "damage reduction" via -inits is not a problem with a doc or a crat in team, it's on stuff that is resistent against that line where it's more of a problem, and your suggestion seems resonable, bump on that.
    Don't you just hate this kind of ppl
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...rouscranus.htm

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    Opinions?
    Nah. I'll rather take the "5 sec cooldown, 60 seconds duration" version of the proposed "2k-ish dmg debuff, 400ish init debuff, 3k-ish nano cost" nano. Heck, you can even boost the nano cost in that case.

    Thanks.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  19. #319
    Klod, there has been nothing to suggest the Devs are willing to give us anything anywhere close to that, unfortunately. I'd love it, and personally I think it would be pretty darn balanced given UBT as a precedent, but this is one of those things that Devs make the call on, and I'm trying to come up with something we might be able to actually get.

  20. #320
    as i said, the NSD line should be kept the same, but chance it slightly to include target player/SLmob/RK mob and change the resists/times accordingly, or add 2 new NSD's, basically for just pvp, like the nemesis nanos, which are only castable on players (normal nsd line is only castable on NPC's) that way the game dosent have to change much in mechanic wise,

    and i see a lot of people asking and comparing the MP to other professions, if you do this, you might as well just remove the locks on everything, give mp mongo, AMS/challanger etc... dont compare them, just they are what they are

    plenty of ways in making them better, without the silly changes, just update the older stuff so it actually is more viable, which people are kinda asking for
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