Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Valour View Post
    good post but that NSD is gunna suck for us froob toons who like to raid HI, its hard enough as it is without a 7 sec duration, thanks fc for only thinking of the paid people (lots of paid have froob toons who are frequently played also!)

    pretty stupid if you ask me, should still last 1 min imo, just have the resist check lowered, since endgame NR is pretty much higher than needed anyway, as i see it, thats what this balance is aimed at, only endgame people.
    You realize FC is going to revamp PVM raids as well? It is entirely pointless to hinge on this argument so much. Rather than making a hundred different versions of every nano for every situation, and an NSD that effects eremites, one that effects bosses, one that effects SL mobs, one that effects dynas, one that effects raid mobs and all of them effecting them differently...how about we just adjust the PVM aspect itself?

  2. #262
    should just be as easy to add

    nano shutdown

    skills:blah

    player = 120% resist or whatever it is now
    monsterRK= 80% resist
    monsterSL= 110% resist

    something along those lines
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒

  3. #263
    FC Can make the nanos check if target is player or monster. Not so hard to change the nanos and dont get freaking immunity and so low duration in pvm.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Agree, it is too high, if MPs (the nanoskilled profession by default for some...) need to start swapping equipment when they have endgame equipment on, them we are not so much nanoskilled as some people cry out loud here.

    I got 2350 with nanodoctorate, org benefits, champion of nano combat fully perked and four CS pieces in the armor. Pretty expensive for us the masters of nanocasting huh?
    I think that's the point. MPs who focus on their weapon damage default to a lower pet. Meanwhile the creation MPs who can focus on nanoskills make up the damage difference with base nukes and a better pet.

    You don't even need ai armor to reach 2500 MC/TS, as evidenced by my MP who has 2730ish in my NORMAL config but with ai armor. And then I can rclick two items and get around 2830ish, and can "lol how high can I self" up to right around 3k with phulaks and more swaps. If the perk docs hit live as they are now you can add an additional 160 to all my numbers too. Therefore, I don't think it would even be unreasonable to ask for higher reqs on the scourge pet to distinguish nanoskill purists from "normal weapon" lovers.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    I think that's the point. MPs who focus on their weapon damage default to a lower pet. Meanwhile the creation MPs who can focus on nanoskills make up the damage difference with base nukes and a better pet.

    You don't even need ai armor to reach 2500 MC/TS, as evidenced by my MP who has 2730ish in my NORMAL config but with ai armor. And then I can rclick two items and get around 2830ish, and can "lol how high can I self" up to right around 3k with phulaks and more swaps. If the perk docs hit live as they are now you can add an additional 160 to all my numbers too. Therefore, I don't think it would even be unreasonable to ask for higher reqs on the scourge pet to distinguish nanoskill purists from "normal weapon" lovers.
    That if weapons get a boost only. And nuke lovers already got huge benefits in pet damage and perfomance and nano damage compared to weapon purists.

    Edit: And I am not talking about a new MP that just reached 220, I am talking about an endgame weapon NANOFOCUSED meta with endgame equipment, 220/30/70 fully perked for nanoskills. Yes, I could get 225 more nanoskills instantly if I want and I can get more in a few minutes getting fully geared with CS but the point is that is the best we can get sacrificing DEFENSE and LIFE not weapon skills and we already lost lots of it.
    Last edited by madmax; Mar 27th, 2011 at 01:43:31.

  6. #266
    And I don't understand why some people want nuker MPs to be gimps too, by forcing them to get every single point in nanoskills possible except if you already got your precious treasure and don't want anybody else to have it.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    That if weapons get a boost only. And nuke lovers already got huge benefits in pet damage and perfomance and nano damage compared to weapon purists.

    Edit: And I am not talking about a new MP that just reached 220, I am talking about an endgame weapon NANOFOCUSED meta with endgame equipment, 220/30/70 fully perked for nanoskills. Yes, I could get 225 more nanoskills instantly if I want and I can get more in a few minutes getting fully geared with CS but the point is that is the best we can get sacrificing DEFENSE and LIFE not weapon skills and we already lost lots of it.
    My MP with 2730 MC/TS is a mere 84 points of def rating off the max (practical) potential for MPs currently, and they are all rclick swaps. High nanoskills are barely hurting my def rating, and swapping depending on the situation is always an option. It does hurt HP some, but the 2.5k board puts me at 11.6k hp, 12.6k if I swap to abil & hp alb bracer from nanoskill one. That's entirely normal for a nanomage whose profession doesn't get HP support in perks, nanos, or other areas like f/e an enforcer/soldier/keeper/doc etc.

  8. #268
    I'm not sure low hp builds like that will do well in the brave new postbalance world
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  9. #269
    :P In mine calcs I keeped my 14k HP (lost 300 hp, roarrr zomg nerf). That could turn to 16 with SE Helm and Ejathos ^^

    Its my setup with Nanocontroler unit + Def HUD in place of Nanodeck (swapable) and Scope, with Alba nano thing instead of bow ones and CS instead of CSS (also CS instead of DB gloves/boots cause I'm not finished yet) 2.7k MC/TS with 14k HP :3
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax
    Yes, I could get 225 more nanoskills instantly if I want and I can get more in a few minutes getting fully geared with CS but the point is that...
    That you don't want to put any effort into casting a nano you're not going to cast in combat anyway?

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    The Min-Max(Crit) on Creation weaps are good itself. But attached with 3/3 speed... make then do half of Beast Weapons.
    This.

    Most stats are fine, speed is so horrible noone will use these...

    Especially with AS leaving, Bow AR needs to be a lot greater, and regular hits need to come more often to compensate. Well, maybe the AS from research is going to be some nanoskills?

  12. #272
    On the question of lower level nanocosts:

    You will do more damage for the same nano-cost with the new nukes at all levels... or you could see it as being able to do the same damage for much less nanocost by casting them a bit less often...

    And you will do more damage per second with the new nukes at all levels as well... and be able to cast other nanos while doing that.... either more nukes for even more dps... or debuffs/pet buffs etc.


    Frigid Blast used to do 1.45 minimum damage per nano-point. New Frigid Blast (now Wintery Bayonet) does 2.0 min damage per nano-point. 37% more damage per point of nano spent.

    Mind Howl used to do 1.36 min damage per nano-point. New Mind Howl does 1.66 min damage per nano-point. 22% more damage per point of nano spent.

    Frigid Blast used to do min damage of 160 and at that level, with a casting time of 3.45 could be cast at best every 2 seconds = 80 dps. Probably a fair bit slower in most situations. Wintery Bayonet does 608 min damage every 4 secs = 152 dps and with a 1s attack time will be instacast in most situations at its level. So at least 90% more dps - while giving 37% more damage per nano point spent.

    And because you can cast other stuff in between the new nukes (because the cool-down is longer than the recharge) - you can maintain that 95% more dps - while also casting other nanos - e.g. debuffs... but on the old nukes, you had to use all of your casting time to maintain far less dps.

    Old Mind Howl optimistically did 118.5 dps whereas New Mind Howl does 165.5 dps.... and leaves you time to cast other stuff while doing that.

    As far as I can tell by scanning them by eye, these results basically hold through both lines.


    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 27th, 2011 at 08:14:50.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  13. #273
    FC Can make the nanos check if target is player or monster. Not so hard to change the nanos and dont get freaking immunity and so low duration in pvm.
    I'm sure that they can do this.. but I'm also fairly sure that it would take at least some extra coding to put this in. At the moment, there's no facility for putting conditionals into the DefCheck field as far as I know.

    It's a good idea though.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Camar View Post
    This.

    Most stats are fine, speed is so horrible noone will use these...

    Especially with AS leaving, Bow AR needs to be a lot greater, and regular hits need to come more often to compensate. Well, maybe the AS from research is going to be some nanoskills?
    But the bow is perfect, for a nuker. It does give a high ammount of damage, but not in weapon form, you can't have it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    My MP with 2730 MC/TS is a mere 84 points of def rating off the max (practical) potential for MPs currently, and they are all rclick swaps. High nanoskills are barely hurting my def rating, and swapping depending on the situation is always an option. It does hurt HP some, but the 2.5k board puts me at 11.6k hp, 12.6k if I swap to abil & hp alb bracer from nanoskill one. That's entirely normal for a nanomage whose profession doesn't get HP support in perks, nanos, or other areas like f/e an enforcer/soldier/keeper/doc etc.
    You know how much millions people pay to scratch some defense points?

    And loosing HP is bad when your defense is being changed from evade+immunity+control to %damage+healing.

    I keep telling it is endgame equipment to cast one nano when an MP should at least be able to use that nano during his 220 research+equipment life. It seems none remembers here how hard it was and how many raids where needed to get those pieces of equipment and a complete set of CS.

    Another point nobody talks about with sacrificial shielding and is much more important than the loss of blockers is the huge loss in NR in the documents and the root and snare defense. Loosk like nobody PvPs at endgame and seeing how casting is going to be improved for everybody with even soldiers getting active combat casting and perks checking NR there is a huge loss of NR and snare/root defense here.

  15. #275
    Been thinking about those nukes a little, and then recalled the problem that procs didnt fire off when casting a Nuke, was FC planning to make that different so that it would fire off a proc?

    Anyways with Justinsane's post about the combination of creation + pet damage + nuke power being still less than Xan weapons... i guess well have to switch to the Xan weapon bow then and work with the less AR we get and more Nuke power cause we seem to keep the ability to use Mind Blow and the Alpha/Finishing nuke even without creation weaponry.

    Hell as it looks right now and AS will stay just less effective in some manner not yet known, one could even keep the Tigress for pvp and just take the less landing of Mezz attacks and less healing power for granted. That 300 extra damage isnt gonna be shown in pvp anyways.

    Moving foward anyways it looks like, Ill have my AR when i need it and different bows for different moments

    Edit: @ Madmax, because they have the +AR gap to fill, its now coming from their nanoskills alone, AR wont be checked anymore for nanoskill attacks
    Last edited by Metafly7; Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:02:40.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    But the bow is perfect, for a nuker. It does give a high ammount of damage, but not in weapon form, you can't have it all.
    Well, the problem is, other profs have it all.

    Crats have a very viable weapon, useful debuffs that they can maintain all the time, at least as powerful nukes and two attack pets that deal a boatload of damage. On top they have very useful teambuffs and the best CC in game.

    So why has MP to be limited and has to make choices, while crats even after the rebalancing continue to great soloers, one if not the most wanted prof for teams, CC and damagewise, and decent PvPers.

    MPs on the other hand are one of the worst profs in PvP, and one of the least sought in PvM. Our damage is ok to mediocre. Our healing is laughable now, will be a lot better after rebalancing, but do you take an MP for his healpet? I doubt it. We can solo quite a bit, but there are a lot of profs that do it better.
    In PvP, we actually get nerfed with the loss of blockers, root/snare resist, NR and either AS or reflects (depending on the pets, if pets have enough HP to actually use DtP efficiently, this gets a little better).

    So again, why is one of the worst profs in AO not getting boosts, but has its debuffs lowered in effiency? This document won't help us to get teams one bit, even with the revamped encounters. If the encounter is hard enough that you have to use NSD, the new NSD won't be enough, since 66% of the time it won't be there. If the team can survive these 66%, they won't take the MP in the first place, but take another toon that brings more to the team. If it can't survive, well, what use is the MP then?

    The "we need ***, let's get an MP" is still missing, because everything we do, another prof does better. And the other non-specialized profs don't have to make so many sacrifices...

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    That you don't want to put any effort into casting a nano you're not going to cast in combat anyway?
    Says, who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camar View Post
    So again, why is one of the worst profs in AO not getting boosts, but has its debuffs lowered in effiency? This document won't help us to get teams one bit, even with the revamped encounters. If the encounter is hard enough that you have to use NSD, the new NSD won't be enough, since 66% of the time it won't be there. If the team can survive these 66%, they won't take the MP in the first place, but take another toon that brings more to the team. If it can't survive, well, what use is the MP then?

    The "we need ***, let's get an MP" is still missing, because everything we do, another prof does better. And the other non-specialized profs don't have to make so many sacrifices...
    Sums it up well enough.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod
    Says, who?
    Good point. I guess there is nothing stopping you from casting it in combat, just like theres nothing stopping you from dieing while doing so.

    I feel for MPs not getting teams as I've experienced the same things on my agent/trader forever but it seems like everyone here is thinking in black and white. Either they need you or they don't. The fact of the matter is for most profs that answer is always going to be no. Except of course docs and crats who have been in high demand all along, and still will be. You're always going to be dissappointed comparing yourselves to them.

  19. #279
    You're always going to be dissappointed comparing yourselves to them.
    Lol... this completely misses the point of having a "rebalancing patch" doesn't it? The whole idea, is that professions should be better balanced... and so comparing the different professions should not always end up with one profession coming out really badly compared to the other.

    I have to agree with Camar's assessment. In terms of relative balance to another casting/pet profession like the crat, there are some real issues. Not just in terms of team contribution - but also in other areas.

    In particular, the durations and CDs on their Init/Dmg debuffs compared to our Dmg/Init debuffs really puzzles me...

    On the upside, our nukes turned out a bit better than the Crats' on base stats and we seem to have a lot more options in terms of +nanodamage too... and there are a few other things where the MP is still better. But overall, I still think that the comparisons to Crats aren't necessarily favourable.

    We may need to see how these things end up in testing though to get a really good overview of them.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremeTech
    Lol... this completely misses the point of having a "rebalancing patch" doesn't it? The whole idea, is that professions should be better balanced... and so comparing the different professions should not always end up with one profession coming out really badly compared to the other.
    Ideally... yes. In a game that values earning experience a profession that provides an innate boost to such, simply for being around will always be teamed easily. Healers for the same reason to an extent because they allow you to continue to gain it by not dieing. Some things are just unavoidable by nature. Given the nature of this game this is one of them. I'm not advocating it, it's just the way it is.

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