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Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #201
    To resume:

    What we players expected:
    • Better heals/heal pets;
    • A clear role as debuffer while maintaining our allrounder status;
    • More static defenses.


    What FC want/gave to us:
    • Better heals/heal pets; [check]
    • More nukes, nerfed debuffs in pvm, less debuffs types. AKA gimp crats with heals; [the oposite what we want]
    • They toke 70 evade/aad from Bow/AS setup and 300ish from nubshield ones. [meh like we had 4.5k+ defenses...]


    Conclusion: MPs are still fun to play, will survive better some gimp DD only content and will OD soljas in any setup. And will not be desireable in teams, also less desireable than today with our debuffs becomming more useless due those immunities.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post

    Don't get me wrong... I'm deeply worried by the apparent shift away from debuffs. I find that the changes made to the dmg/init debuffs in particular seem out of order, when you consider that the Doc/Crat Init/Dmg debuffs are arguably stronger in effect and have 5s CD with 60s duration.
    Bump for that. I don't see the logic behind crats and doctors getting to maintain their debuffs, and potentially stronger debuffs at that, while we can't.

    FC is nerfing us so hard with cooldowns that I don't think we could even call ourselves a true debuff profession anymore. If the mob is at 100% 2/3's of the time, then honestly what difference are we making? In pvm, if the mob can be tanked 2/3's of the time just fine then why would that last 1/3 be any different or pose any additional risk? In pvp, I can only debuff a doc's ICH down to 42k, oh noes what is he gonna do. And ICH is on the exact same cooldown as our new debuff. Whats the point? All the while that doctor can keep us and our pets permanently init debuffed. Our damage debuff. It doesn't even last more than one Aimed Shot cycle. Disgusting.

    Does it need to be said that MPs are at the bottom of the pvp food chain WITH OUR EXISTING DEBUFF POWER?

    I'm a bit more torn on the NSD changes. 7s NSD at 90% def check and 1s recharge... compared to the old E-NSD isn't horrible... and the immunity only happens if you land it of course. But yes... the immunity is still there. Then again, you also have the increased NanoDmg/HealMod debuff for another 10s of nuke/heal debuffing, so it's possible to maintain a decent debuff for a fair chunk of time....
    It is horrible. Currently, NR works against NSD because it's not spammable and every casting intensive profession has a perkline that offers NSD removers. And now on top of NSD perk removals (with the line being expanded to more professions), and the soon to be "fixed" immunity aspect of them, we get this new version of NSD with child safety locks just in case it might still pose a danger to anyone. Something that a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that we STILL have to beat the persons NR to land this new NSD anyways. It's been nerfed into nothingness. The new shade nano silence is now superior to a long term staple MP nano. WTF FC!

    Speaking of shades... Other than through different meshes, whats the difference in gameplay going to be between a shade and an MP? Shades have short debuffs that they try to exploit with massive spike damage. MPs will have short debuffs that they will try to exploit with massive spike damage. Same difference!

    On the PvM side... I agree that timing of the NSD will be very hit and miss... But I also note that FC have said they'd increase the number of mobs we can affect with NSD as a result, according to Justin. And again, there's the back-up improved NanoDmg/Heal mod debuff that may help with a lot of mob effects (though not all).
    Unless we can predict when the mob is going to use nanos (and promises not to use them again until NSD is ready again), this nano won't matter. It's the same with the damage debuff, if you can do without it for the majority of the time, then it probably isn't needed at at all. "But we're opening up more bosses to NSD!" So what! The net effectiveness of the NSD on things we previously couldn't use it on won't change one bit. And for everything else that it currently does work on, it will be like now making it immune to NSD. Hooray.

  3. #203
    Its just me or that is the second time I got attacked cause I say my opinion? ^^

    On topic: Question to Kintaii/Genele: Any chance to we see MP doc changed to make us be debuffers again?
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    JustinSane has worked out that an optimised MP can sustain about 100K nuke damage per minute taking into account nano cost and nano regen. He reckons that you could get up to 200K damage per minute in bursts. I'm not sure how he has calculated this... perhaps he could say something to the details. But it seems to me, that this is a considerable increase on the level of nuke damage we can sustain at present.

    Like you, I worry about the lower level ability to manage the nanocosts. But just comparing a few of the nukes to their existing versions... it seems to me that they all get considerably more damage per nano over a given time.

    e.g. Frigid Blast used to do 1.45 minimum damage per nano-point. New Frigid Blast (now Wintery Bayonet) does 2.0 min damage per nano-point.

    Frigid Blast used to do min damage of 160 and at that level, with a casting time of 3.45 could be cast at best every 2 seconds = 80 dps. Probably a fair bit slower in most situations. Wintery Bayonet does 608 min damage every 4 secs = 152 dps and with a 1s attack time will be instacast in most situations at its level.

    You should still be able to maintain a good bit more damage with the new nukes than you could with the old ones. ~35% more damage per nano-point and 90% more damage per second.
    Nuke damage per minute calc: For an MP with a nano-delta of 200 (this assumes they use the 2hb creation staff or cloak of the re-animated illusionist for higher nano delta) Bio-Met of 2,500, soothing spirits 10 and ancient knowledge 10 perked, nano-regenration/minute will be 15.9k (9.9 k from perk actions, 6k from nano-delta). For a nano-cost capped NM the top base nuke (the most efficient nuke nano-wise) costs 927 nano/cast and can be cast 15 times/minute for a total nano per minute cost of 13,911 and a DPM (against a zero AC target) of 92,745. We've got just shy of 2k nano left which, generously rounding up a bit, allows for two special effect nukes to be cast for a dpm of 6,135. Adding the two together we get a total nuke DPM of 98,880.

    Our current nuke DPM against a 0 AC target is 50,235, so we're getting about double the nuke DPM. Unfortunately this comes at the cost of locking out non-creation weapons, which have higher DPM than our creation weapons will, so the total DD gain is likely to be quite small. We will however have the option to spend our nano-pool down quickly by casting all of our nukes as soon as their cool-downs are up, which will allow bursts of roughly 200k DPM against a zero AC target (potentially useful in PvP situations).


    How is weapon damage less? As far as I can tell, you could continue to use the same pistols that you use right now without any changes in its performance. Indeed, you'd still have the extra perks and weaponskill available to you from Pistol Mastery being extended wouldn't you?

    And this document is there for further feedback after all. It's by no means definitive and things will no doubt change right through beta. I'm sure that the Professionals have been arguing for more AR for the MP. I personally argued for more AR for the MP in these forums... though not the +1K AR boost that some people were asking for, which I think it's now clear was and is never going to happen.
    Most pistol MPs are, to the best of my knowledge, using Toa'Ler for AS, which is getting nerfed. Additionally using pistols will strongly compromise nuke and pet DD.


    I may be miscalculating... but I think that red shield + parry stick builds should see an overall gain in evades/AAD after rebalance, based on what we've seen so far. Could you show your working that brings them out with less?
    Shield of Esa + Lotus Parry Stick + SS + top evade OSB = 780 AAD+evade close (and +100 parry for that matter, which will be relevant after the re-balance). Nerfed SoZ + top new evade buff = 573 AAD+evade close for a loss of -207 AAD+evade close from present day.

    I think that a lot will depend on how the pets end up. If they're as bad defensively as they are now... then things like DtP will be questionable gains. If they're as weak offensively, then as you say, they won't be able to provide that base level of consistent damage that will be important.... but FC have repeatedly said that the pets will have defences and AR that are at least the equivalent of players of the same level.

    So there's room for hope.

    X
    I agree on pets being critical to how this all works out, and I'm hopeful that we'll all be pleased when we finally find out what we're getting there .

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    But advs are? This is exactly what I was arguing against with the new adv stuff. You thought it was fine then. What changed?
    Because adventurers are calming mobs in pvm and pets in pvp as an "animal master". Adventurers are not CCing players, have a much longer cooldown of their AOE mez, and require to be in a form that no adventurer would actually use in pvp. Adventurers fit well into the aspect of monster control.

    How exactly would anyone justify AOE CC tools that effect mobs, pets, and players for MP's or even Engineers? Do you see the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    And lvl any location any content designed to your lvl and with leveling equipment. But its more noticiable on tl 6 and 7.
    The only times my MP has trouble soloing even a few adds is xan, pande, and albatreum which are places most professions have difficulty. I am not a Zset MP and at the most I need to kite a bit when I get in a rough spot in inferno. My MP actually soloes more effectively than my enforcer and shade in their current setups, but of course it is far less effective than my MA which I would consider over-effective soloing capabilities.

    TL1-4 MP is one of the strongest pvm soloers, tl5 it got a bit slow but the survival was still good. As for tl6 I do not remember soloing much there so I cannot comment on that aspect.


    The main thing though, is whether MP's should be a sturdy profession on their own. The point of pet professions is to have pets that can handle the damage load from monsters. Having a pet that can take damage and tank, while simultaneously having a pet profession able to tank even moderately effectively might be the incorrect way to manage the profession.

    In otherwords, an MP should not be able to survive as well as an adventurer, MA, shade, etc without their pets, which is the same as the MP itself being attacked by adds. Just do not interpret that as "one mob should slaughter an MP" which is not what I mean. An MP should have a level of survival equal to other professions when all the pets are included and doing what they are supposed to be doing as well.

  6. #206
    Currently, NR works against NSD because it's not spammable and every casting intensive profession has a perkline that offers NSD removers.
    But the new NSD is spammable - 3s att / 1s rech and 90% NR check. The old E-NSD had that 10s recharge whatever you did... but now the new one has a 1s recharge and so can be spammed till it lands - which should be easier anyway because of the 90% check.

    I think it likely that the NSD removers will be changed because of this change to NSD... though obviously you never know with FC.

    The immunity only kicks in once the nano has been landed... so you can spam it till it lands. And you can also spam it across several targets of course... though again once it lands, the immunity kicks in.

    It's pros and cons on the new NSD. I suppose its usefulness in PvM depends on how frequently the bosses nuke. If there's a good chance that a boss will nuke within a 7s window and the 10s window after that with the 70% NanoDamage debuff... then both have a purpose together. 17 seconds with no or very reduced nuke damage... followed by 11s without a debuff... followed by 17s with the debuffs again.

    I don't like it... but I can perhaps see some of the reasoning behind it...

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  7. #207

    Few Questions regarding Document

    1)I think 2300 MM seems a bit high for the debuffs/Mez pet i struggle to get above 2051 for Desecration so i hope people will be able to hit 2300.
    2)So I'm guessing Pistol users will have no viability since creation/pure casting MPs are gonna rule the day?
    3)Way things are currently Crats still rule the team support for damage/init debuffs so unless FC plans to remove that damn stacking issue with Crat/MP dunno how MPs are gonna get teams for debuffing.
    4)NSD does have use in certain situations(like Hackers for instance) so those pesky hackers are surely gonna be a far greater pain with the immunity.
    5) Way to go on the heal pet heals i can't wait for it
    6) This is more of a selfish wish but it'd be nice if the top(new) attack pet would be something other than a PvM based mob.

  8. #208
    Shield of Esa + Lotus Parry Stick + SS + top evade OSB = 780 AAD+evade close
    I was thinking more of the lower levels where Red Shield + Parry stick is more commonly used in PvP. Up at the levels where you could be using Shield of Esa, most players would be using Shield of Zset at present in PvP.

    At most lower levels where Red Shield + parry stick is more commonly used for PvP - you don't usually have Sacrificial Shielding either... so you have SoA and Parry Stick for 310 AAD... whereas now you have SoA + Creation for 323 AAD... then add additional evades buffs, for a better AAD value than previously - at most levels where the Red Shield + Parry stick is really used in PvP now, afaik.

    I'm sure that there are some exceptions... but broadly, most MPs using Shield + Parry stick now, are likely to see an improvement in their AAD, not a reduction.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Its just me or that is the second time I got attacked cause I say my opinion? ^^

    On topic: Question to Kintaii/Genele: Any chance to we see MP doc changed to make us be debuffers again?
    He is just flaming everybody. If someone bits the bait he wins, moderators are of course not neutral in this forum and they have read his messages and done nothing, so to make them act you have to flag his message (the small triangle to the left) and write flaming or trolling.

    Disclaimer: When saying moderators are not neutral it means they are humans and have their point of view and that means they will favor someone that "supports" them while they might see criticism to their actions as trolling. In this case, if you follow the game of the troll, you have already lost and risk getting infraction points much more than he will. The best solution to this is flagging the troll and setting him on ignore (god bless ignore)

    Back on topic, yes, they might change the nano document. I doubt they will fill my expectations but it might apparently work for you until you test the new MP. That is why we are talking about it here.

    I read from justinsane that we are getting a high burst of instant damage, that is not really the truth. There is the possibility of making a lot of nuke damage but the cost in nano is too high and the difference with other alphas is that once the nano is gone it is really hard to get it back so it nullifies the damage, MPs have become gimps.

    Someone said that he solos better with his MP than with his enfo. I've played MPs for more than a real time year and I can solo almost anything much better with my enfo.

    With the current requirements of the new nanos the MP is forced to be creation. That is effectively making many MPs leave the profession or the game.

  10. #210
    Stop being snobs to each other and discuss the matter at hand peacefully or I'll be happy to hand out a few more infractions. As for being called sided, the moderation team does have a life and most of it is volunteer. So no, we don't get to read every single post that is made right when it's made. Keep it clean and constructive or the nerf stick cometh again.
    Coordinator Prevention
    Tours & Weddings Team - Community Relations Department
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  11. #211
    seeing as most of the talk in this thread is about TL7 and 90% of you will just skip this post cause it doesn't pertain to you I will keep it short.

    my 30 MP will be reduced to a useless character slot... most of what makes being a TL2 MP twink unique is beaing able to hurt people without actually doing dmg. The lose of unmake will completely dumb down the profession to play at lower levels in pvp.

    please for the <3 of god give me my nanoskill drains... minor nsd anyone?

  12. #212
    Please note that the pet calm/root/snare remover is now available at lvl 30. I don't have personal experience with TL2 MP twinks, but as I understand it that should make a difference?

  13. #213
    will make it a little less annoying but, tbh roots, snare and calms never bothered me as most traders don't fight MPs at that level on a regular basis. so they don't even try they just use drains which is whay I have ample NR

  14. #214
    I'll be sure to bring up the minor NSD idea - thanks for mentioning it .

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    What FC want/gave to us:[*]More nukes, nerfed debuffs in pvm, less debuffs types. AKA gimp crats with heals; [the oposite what we want]
    In what situation would a -2300 damage add debuff not be useful? And who is to say our nanoskill debuffing abilities won't have better use in the future either. You have to take more than biased antagonism into account when judging these documents.

    As a tank I would appreciate what the MP could offer based on the document.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senggum View Post
    seeing as most of the talk in this thread is about TL7 and 90% of you will just skip this post cause it doesn't pertain to you I will keep it short.

    my 30 MP will be reduced to a useless character slot... most of what makes being a TL2 MP twink unique is beaing able to hurt people without actually doing dmg. The lose of unmake will completely dumb down the profession to play at lower levels in pvp.

    please for the <3 of god give me my nanoskill drains... minor nsd anyone?
    A 200 nanoskill req "minor" NSD would be a wise addition, but the document itself does not break low level MPs, not even close. Nanoskill debuffing is important but there is a lot more than just preventing opponents from casting that makes MP's dangerous.

    Your possible nuke damage has increased quite a bit. Look at the reqs of the nukes in range and then the damage compared to those currently used. The damage for your 30 has increased by 5-10x in nuke damage. The trade-off however is the higher cost, but considering the sheer amount of damage proposed there will not be many people in the level 30 range that could survive your nukes alone.

    The damage add debuffs which were previously useless at low levels will now remove nearly 100% of an opponents damage in that range. Considering that almost all damage from low levels is from regular hits and weapon specials, not perks, you would have a relative 10 seconds of damage invulnerability against a single target.

    Composite teachings will now buff an MP with an additional 15 points of nanoskills you did not originally have. Its a very slight improvement but still something to consider as a pet profession.

    You will gain a 10% DtP to help shrug off damage and reduce the capping effect of high damage hits.

    You will be able to use a shield which boosts your max health by 680 points, that is NOT a minor improvement but a massive gain.

    As justin mentioned, you will now be able to clear CC tools effecting your pets.

    Your heal pet should be healing more and healing more effectively. Improved attack pets would likely make up for the lack of init buffs at your level, and the mez pet is actually highly effective at lower levels and an AOE effect is probably going to be a bit overkill at that point.


    So the only thing you lose is about 60 nanoskill debuffing? Not even counting the perk improvements this is a substaintial gain for a 30 MP. You cannot just look at one aspect and nit-pick it to death, you have to gauge your full potential.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    In what situation would a -2300 damage add debuff not be useful? And who is to say our nanoskill debuffing abilities won't have better use in the future either. You have to take more than biased antagonism into account when judging these documents.

    As a tank I would appreciate what the MP could offer based on the document.
    It's useful, just nowhere near as useful as init debuffs from other professions that can be kept on 100%. As an enf with a solid doc behind you, how much of difference is this debuff really gonna make though when f/e some bosses can hit upwards of 10k? I want it to be MORE useful. I was really hoping MPs would be strengthened as debuffers.

    The debuffs in our toolset right now don't deserve to be hacked to 1/4 of their current state just because it falls under the category of "debuff" and in FC's rebalancing "all debuffs are being weakened". The MP profession is in a no man's land of mediocrity with the current power of our debuffs. And that should be factored in when deciding how severely to nerf our debuffs. If we are indeed a debuff intensive profession, then they should not be marginalized to such a degree.
    Last edited by Mountaingoat; Mar 26th, 2011 at 00:10:03.

  17. #217
    did i read that right? -600 dmg debuff castable by level 60 mp? also insane nukes, more healing...
    :[

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    In what situation would a -2300 damage add debuff not be useful? And who is to say our nanoskill debuffing abilities won't have better use in the future either. You have to take more than biased antagonism into account when judging these documents.
    I'm talking on pvm, not pvp.

    But if you think a 10s DD debuff followed by 20s immunity is MORE usefull in pvm tha Doc/Crat init debuffs (which has longer duration and no immunity)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Murskaink2 View Post
    did i read that right? -600 dmg debuff castable by level 60 mp? also insane nukes, more healing...
    :[
    Thats right :P 10s followed by 20s immunity. ^^ So you have to survive 10seconds; diferent of fight a solja, where you have to survive 40.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  19. #219
    In what situation would a -2300 damage add debuff not be useful?
    There are a range of difficulties with the damage debuffs:

    1) Does it add to survivability?

    If your team can maintain their viability, without the tank dying or other players dying, during the 20 seconds of immunity... then in a broad sense, the debuff isn't necessary. The team has enough damage mitigation / healing to cope without the debuff. Indeed, teams would have to make sure of this before engaging the content.

    So the debuff won't actually improve the survival of the team/raid. It's an 'icing on the cake thing' not needed in most situations.

    There's one possible situation where it might be of more necessity, that I can think of. That is, immediately after a very large AoE nuke, you might hit the damage debuff to give healers a bit more time to recover. So a situational use at best.

    2) Burst Damage

    Most healers and tanks (and indeed players in general) prefer damage to be fairly consistent over time. This allows you to use your tools appropriately and get into a rhythm. Damage debuffs that for 10s reduce damage... then leave 20s with no debuff... then 10s with debuff... then 20s with none etc.. create a 'bursty' damage profile, which is often not desired.

    I could see some raid leaders specifically asking that the debuffs in fact not be used in a lot of situations.

    Nano-Cost

    Nanocost on the top damage debuff is 3527. To maintain it for 20s out of 1 minute would cost you 7054 nano. To maintain it for 1 minute out of 3 minutes would cost you 21,162 nano. We know that we're not going to be able to maintain our top DPS profile as it is. Adding in the damage debuffs will only serve to reduce the available nuke DPS. When the damage debuff isn't going to directly affect survivability... most MPs who are trying to maximise their contribution, will use the nano for DPSing with nukes... rather than casting the bursty damage debuff.

    Now compare this to maintaining the top unbreakable Doc Init/Dmg debuff, which is certainly comparable in effect. Maintaining that debuff for 1 minute costs 792 nano. But you can maintain it for the full 3 minutes for a cost of 2,376. This is much more supportable on top of Doc/Crat healing and nuking. Even if you have to cast it a few times to make it land through resistances... let's say 5 times per land, you end up with 11,880 cost. About half of the MP cost, for 3 times as much coverage.

    3) Relative Contribution

    In the majority of teams that are built for tougher content, where the MP debuff might be seen as useful, there are %age damage mitigators. That includes Reflects, Init debuffs, AAO debuffs, Evade debuffs and so on. Anything that reduces hit rates, essentially takes a %age of the damage away.

    The extra contribution that is given by adding an MP to a team, is reduced sequentially by those %age effects.

    Given a mob that hits for 5,000/hit and does 10 hits over 30 seconds = 50,000 damage:

    Doc/Crat Init debuff -200 damage = 48,000 remaining
    Init debuff reduces hit rate by say 30% of that 48,000 = 33,600 remaining
    Evade buffs reduce hit rate by say 10% of tha 48,000 = 28,800 remaining
    Reflect buffs reduce damage by 50% of that 28,800 = 14,400 remaining.

    Total Damage Mitigation without MP = 35,600

    Now add an MP with 2300 debuff and no immunity: mob now hits for 2,700 on 10 hits = 27,000. So it looks, at first, like the MP has saved you 23,000 damage plus some extra reduction because of the extra init debuff.

    Doc/Crat init debuff at least -200 damage = 25,000 remaining
    MP Init portion reduces hit rate by 10% of that 25K = 22,500
    Init debuff reduces hit rate by 30% of that 25K = 15,000 remaining
    Evade buffs reduce hit rate y 10% of that 25K = 12,500 remaining
    Reflect buffs reduce damage by 50% of that 12,500 = 6,250 remaining

    Total Damage Mitigation with MP = 43,750

    Difference gained by adding an MP = -10,150 damage
    Total Doc/Crat init debuff contribution = -9,500 damage

    So although the MP seems to be able to reduce each hit by 2300 and thus over the 10 hits would save you 23,000 damage. In reality, adding an MP to this team reduced damage by only 10,150 over that 30 seconds. If that difference were spread across the original 10 hits... that would be a 1015 debuff.

    Now if you make that MP debuff only available 1/3rd of the time - then the MP contribution is about 3,383 over the 10 hits... 338 damage reduction per hit.

    Difference gained by adding MP with 1/3 uptime debuffs = -3,383.... not 23,000 as it at first seemed
    Total Doc/Crat Init debuff contribution = -9,500 damage... nearly 3 times as much.

    Given that a tank will usually take the brunt of any attack in PvM and will always have either high reflects or very high evades... and there will usually be a doc/crat in the team for tougher content - providing their Init/Dmg debuffs oo... the actual contribution of an MP's damage debuffs to a PvM team is massively reduced.

    Soloing Contribution

    The MP damage debuffs presently find most of their usage in solo play, if we're honest. Perhaps also in small groups without the trinity roles well filled.

    But at present in this situation, the MP can maintain his damage debuff of -920 per hit for 100% of the time. The 2300 value on the new ones can be maintained 1/3 of the time, so we'll see an average debuff of 766 per hit.... which is a good chunk less than we now have. There's more init debuff on the new ones, so maybe an extra 5% reduction on top - perhaps 820ish average damage reduction per hit on the new ones... which is still substantially less than we'd have with the old debuffs.

    The burst issues of the new debuffs still apply in soloing - but this may be worked around to some extent and timed to fit in with cool-downs on our perk heals for example. So we can perhaps work around it better when soloing... but the basic issue of having less damage reduction overall, will essentially nerf damage debuffs for soloists.


    Now there is one proviso to all of this: at present some Boss mobs tend to have some resistance or immunity to init debuffs, whereas they tend not to have immunity to damage debuffs. So against some boss mobs, the damage debuffs would have a larger effect. But Reflects, AAO debuffs, Evade buffs etc will still have their effect on the actual contribution of the MP debuffs.

    In the above calculations, I would say that I have seriously underestimated the effect of reflects, evade buffs and evades on the hit-rate of mobs... I haven't included any AAO debuffs or other debuffs that may well be included in a raid, for example. So I would actually expect the results to be much worse than stated there. On the up-side... the more that the other effects reduce the actual contribution of the MP debuffs... the less important the burst effect is.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:56:31.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  20. #220
    Sounds correctish except a mob wouldnt be able to land its full extent of hits if it it init debuffed. So instead of hitting once a second it for instance hits once every 3 seconds, which will mean the damage debuff only works for those three hits. In other words contribution in teams actually looks to stink and only emergency moments seem a good moment to use it
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