Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #481
    @Tuty I usually raid w/o crat when I'm on MP. This nanodoc is a complete nerf in my playstyle.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #482
    Well, i can be wrong ofc. Didnt check exact numbers for a while. Maybe i had 10 on conc that time. Anyway, im sure 2,5k wont be prob. In worst scenario i swap hud3 and 1 utils for nanoskills to cast.

    What do u think about wep recharge? Faster attack time and slower recharge would benefit us better.
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Apr 5th, 2011 at 12:24:38.

  3. #483
    Damage from the bow is already not so high, itll be less than what it is now, and then u also lower the rate of fire, so instead of doing 2k per hit every 1+1 = 2 seconds u do 1.5k every 2.5+1 = 3.5 seconds

    Ruff estimation, didnt do any calculations for it but u get my drift i guess. The rate of fire is also important for the procs how they work now, but like X said we dont know how they will change. But rate of fire is also important for constant damagedealing. The solving of the casting with lower attack time is nice thinking tho. Recharge indeed has no effect on it
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  4. #484
    It looks like there's a design direction to have weapon power be a non-creation thing. And creations still being more about buffing.

    I think that the Creation Bow needs to be more in the middle, which is why I suggested speeding them up to 1.6/1.6 and removing the Nanodamage buff from the creation bows.

    x
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  5. #485
    I would definitely go for that
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  6. #486
    I would prefer keep the nano dd on bow and get rif of nano range.

    And wtb 1.6/1.6 on 2hb and bow. With lower dd ofc. ^^ 1hb should be 1/1 or almost it.

    Also... 100%TS 25%weap AR on creations and 100%weap 25%TS on MP only designed weaps. And everybody will be happy cause procs will fire more often than today where they fire 1~3 times per year.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  7. #487
    And wtb 1.6/1.6 on 2hb and bow. With lower dd ofc. ^^
    I'd suggested dropping the nano-damage rather than the damage template of the bow, because it provides a weapons option that contributes better, even when nanoskills are debuffed (for example) and there are a goodly few MPs who prefer to focus more toward weapon damage, who might enjoy the benefits of the higher hit/proc rate etc.

    So, for the Bow at least, I stick by my suggestion of 1.6/1.6 with the same damage template - but removing the nanodamage buff.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #488
    I won't be happy without more weapon support, 25% more is not enough at tl7 and it is too much at lower levels. There is also a need to complete the weapon support in all title levels for the four weapons, there is research lost, there are items lost.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    I won't be happy without more weapon support, 25% more is not enough at tl7 and it is too much at lower levels. There is also a need to complete the weapon support in all title levels for the four weapons, there is research lost, there are items lost.
    It falls in the refused sugest to make a nano which buffs AR based on our nanoskills(prolly TS), scaling from X% to Y%.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  10. #490
    Or in the creations too, since 25% at lvl 50 can be uber for an MP if we are talking about "real" weapons like creations but is a bit low at 220.

    A nano that gives AR might be hard to get, and a nano targeted at weapons how would it work?

  11. #491
    It falls in the refused sugest to make a nano which buffs AR based on our nanoskills(prolly TS), scaling from X% to Y%
    I'm not sure that this was what was said. I think Justin said that he'd argued for it. If it hasn't been implemented in this document it could still be in a future document.

    That's the point of a feedback thread like this isn't it? That we give our feedback and suggestions for improvement.

    I for one have supported the idea of such a buff... though there have been some serious discussions about how much the %age should be. And I still have hopes that such a buff might yet be implemented.... or at the very least one that buffs 1HB/2HB/Bow/Pistol.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  12. #492
    Code:
    Effect         Attack Rating        +X%Time&Space Alterations
    Devs will prolly never give it to us, and I dunno if is possible to implement.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  13. #493
    We got much better nukes, 3 lines even. Tho its crap even NTs got insane wep love but FC refuse to improve ours.

    We should make it clear to FC: current weps are:
    Heavly Useless in pvp because: way too low AR and also too slow. If they give us flowers with same modifiers wouldnt nerf us.
    Not very good for pvm: modifiers are cool, 2hb best for pvm coz nano-dmg, ND. But not as a Weapon.

    Even if we waste ip on init, weps will stay damn slow. Anybody can calc how much dmg they will do? On full def (that most of us use go on i guess) it will stay 2/2 or even slower. 4 sec / hit if u raise init, means 15 hit / min, top 1,8k dmg / hit, less than 30k/min dmg. FC realy think thats the dmg we deserve for the IP cost? And coz high nuke cost they will eat our nano. We cant keep up spamming nukes for 1-2h on raids.

    Mind blow, with 55% cost (as NM only) it will cost 1100 nano. With 250 ND u need 8 secs to keep up the nano. 4-8k dmg +% nano dmg, 7k average dmg every 10 secs (coz u debuff or slack also) means 7*6=42k dmg /min. So that means 70k self dmg /min top. + perks, those maybe other 15k/min Starfall,TuF at least counted. Still, imo pretty low. Thats the dmg we should have? Tell me if im wrong, but seems our dmg wont be more than an average 90k/min and even if we push it a bit more, we cant keep up the nanocost too much. And this means we will be NTs, base hits (like NTs now) and spamming nukes.

    In pvp even less dmg from weps, and ppl may resist nukes.

    FC made high cost on nukes, those are just extra dmg not base of our dmg. Weps are also not base of our dmg. WTB pet that do 140k/min dmg. At least 2k/sec dmg.. will be nerfed coz pvp.. damn wtb some balance. Ideas good, but numbers are craps. Wtb balance......

  14. #494
    @Tuty Metafly already did the calcs. To resume: half of Beast Weaps DD, with Creation Bow doing the lowest .

    Btw, Kintaii said the numbers (like nacost) can be easely changed, but who knows.

    Also, I think that the worst problem in current doc is how our Debuffs got implemented/nerfed.

    I WANNA BE A DEBUFFER. Not a punny NT with pets...
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  15. #495

    Funcom employee

    First off: Moved around some of the stuff in the intro posts and added in a few new answers where I could - Anything in the big blue font is new as of today (all the old answers are still there, just removed the formatting). Not a whole lot, but figured I'd chime in where I could. =)

    Secondly: if you guys have been paying attention to all of the documents we've released so far... debuffing is being hit with the nerf bat pretty much universally across the board. You guys have had some *insane* debuffs in the past... in this design you still can debuff, and you can debuff in ways and for things that no other profession can. Are you going to be as omg amazing as you were at it? No. But neither is any *other* profession either.

    Again, durations on cooldowns can be changed, time exists can be changed, nano costs can be changed, so on and so forth - If we see that anything is under-performing during the Testlive period then we will change it, and we have stated on many, many (*many*) occasions before that we are dedicated to keeping up with this sort of maintenance into the future. *However*, the global diminishing of debuffing is something that we, as a design team, *have* to do for our game - We are already making monsters that have as much stats and damage and trickery in them as we can, and players have been capable of *literally shutting them completely down for the entirety of the encounter* due to just how insane their debuffs are. We've watched people do raids and checked the stats on mobs being attacked - Do you have any idea how many *thousands* of points into the negative some stuff can get? We just can't make good content without there being some risk or threat there, and with the number of debuffs that are prevalent in the current game and their overwhelming sheer *power*... it's something we gotta do to make sure we can keep providing good content for the game in the future.

    (and no, for all of you out there who wanna chime in with 'well just make teh bosses smartur/bettar', it just doesn't work that way - there comes a point where you can make all the nifty tricks and tactics and jumping puzzles you want, but if someone can debuff the mob to where it never attacks in the first place? there's a problem there. :P)

    Third: I do wanna say, also, that what Xtrem said a bit earlier was mostly correct - Under our design direction for MPs, if an MP wants weapon damage, then they should consider going with a non-creation weapon. If an MP wants better buffs/nuking damage, then they should definitely go with a creation weapon setup. Again, not saying that we're on the money yet for the numbers, but there's a reason we're going to put all of this on Testlive for a nice while before shipping it to live.

    Fourth: i really want a taco right about now (sorry i had nothing else witty or snappy or inspiring to end this post with - i apologize )
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    *However*, the global diminishing of debuffing is something that we, as a design team, *have* to do for our game - We are already making monsters that have as much stats and damage and trickery in them as we can, and players have been capable of *literally shutting them completely down for the entirety of the encounter* due to just how insane their debuffs are. We've watched people do raids and checked the stats on mobs being attacked - Do you have any idea how many *thousands* of points into the negative some stuff can get? We just can't make good content without there being some risk or threat there, and with the number of debuffs that are prevalent in the current game and their overwhelming sheer *power*... it's something we gotta do to make sure we can keep providing good content for the game in the future.
    Why nerf every debuff when there's a specific one that's decimating your boss encounters? If you don't know which ones those are, ask any TL7 player.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Many things
    First off: Finally

    Second: Except NSD no other MP debuffs could be as critical as you say here. I doubt there is any problem with having at least a small permanent debuff and a bigger more "controlled" one. There i the problem of team desirability that is now below cero and there will be no reasons to get an MP in the future.

    Third: This is the most important to me, we can't have weapon damage if we can't hit the target, we should have weapon support much more if we have to concentrate into nanoskills. If you don't want us to concentrate on broken special's mechanics we need regular hits or give AS back as DD dealer...

  18. #498
    with this setup:
    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=89187

    i got 2450 mc/ts.....
    the big pet should be no problem at all...

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    First off: Moved around some of the stuff in the intro posts and added in a few new answers where I could - Anything in the big blue font is new as of today (all the old answers are still there, just removed the formatting). Not a whole lot, but figured I'd chime in where I could. =)

    Secondly: if you guys have been paying attention to all of the documents we've released so far... debuffing is being hit with the nerf bat pretty much universally across the board. You guys have had some *insane* debuffs in the past... in this design you still can debuff, and you can debuff in ways and for things that no other profession can. Are you going to be as omg amazing as you were at it? No. But neither is any *other* profession either.

    Again, durations on cooldowns can be changed, time exists can be changed, nano costs can be changed, so on and so forth - If we see that anything is under-performing during the Testlive period then we will change it, and we have stated on many, many (*many*) occasions before that we are dedicated to keeping up with this sort of maintenance into the future. *However*, the global diminishing of debuffing is something that we, as a design team, *have* to do for our game - We are already making monsters that have as much stats and damage and trickery in them as we can, and players have been capable of *literally shutting them completely down for the entirety of the encounter* due to just how insane their debuffs are. We've watched people do raids and checked the stats on mobs being attacked - Do you have any idea how many *thousands* of points into the negative some stuff can get? We just can't make good content without there being some risk or threat there, and with the number of debuffs that are prevalent in the current game and their overwhelming sheer *power*... it's something we gotta do to make sure we can keep providing good content for the game in the future.

    (and no, for all of you out there who wanna chime in with 'well just make teh bosses smartur/bettar', it just doesn't work that way - there comes a point where you can make all the nifty tricks and tactics and jumping puzzles you want, but if someone can debuff the mob to where it never attacks in the first place? there's a problem there. :P)

    Third: I do wanna say, also, that what Xtrem said a bit earlier was mostly correct - Under our design direction for MPs, if an MP wants weapon damage, then they should consider going with a non-creation weapon. If an MP wants better buffs/nuking damage, then they should definitely go with a creation weapon setup. Again, not saying that we're on the money yet for the numbers, but there's a reason we're going to put all of this on Testlive for a nice while before shipping it to live.

    Fourth: i really want a taco right about now (sorry i had nothing else witty or snappy or inspiring to end this post with - i apologize )
    General consensus, even from other professions, is that we fall pretty low on the pvm and pvp food chain with our current debuff power. Nerfing all debuffs to 1/4 power merely based on what they were is shortsighted imo. The power of the profession and the method of it's playstyle need to be thought of too. We're losing uniqueness among professions by turning debuff professions into alpha professions. We already have lots of those in the game.

    NSD, in it's current form doesn't make or break any encounter for paid players at least. Nice to have doing inf keys, but not necessary. Making it 7s every 21 is as good as making the boss immune (like a lot of today's bosses) to it if we can't predict when the mob is gonna nuke. "Stuff" being way in the negative? You mean something other than nanoskills? We're being penalized for other peoples debuffs now? NSD is an on/off switch for mobs debuffing/nuking. It's irrelevant if it puts the mobs nanoskills in the negative, unlike having it's inits or AR in the negative.

    With NSD in pvp, I think you outright forgot about nano doctorate perks. Those perks will make NSD pointless to even use, as essentially they give a 42s immunity to NSD. They can also block it outright if they pop the perk ahead of time now that immunities are getting "fixed" with those perks. We also now have to rely on alphas to kill, which just seems like a lack of creativity and kills my motivation to play as an MP. My shade will do it better, so why bother with my MP. Shade will even get an unremovable NSD... Nice.

    Heal efficiency debuff will mean nothing to doctors. They have ICH on a shorter recharge. Nano damage debuff is only about a 25%-30% debuff to NTs and up only 1/3 of the time... And they'll still have the ability to cap our HP with a 30% debuff on.

    As others have suggested with the straight damage debuff, I think you should give us a lower one that we can keep up all the time, and then we'll have big one that we can only keep up 1/3 of the time.

    The numbers on the 2hb creation staff require 1000 2hb to cast the staff. My current 2hb MP doesn't even break 1k 2hb in a completely endgame setup with Xan Alpha Control symbs in. And in fact 100% weapon + 25% TS is a nice ~800 point or so nerf to my current AR. 100% weapon and 25% TS is not the way to go. Why not 51% weapon and 49% TS? Or 100% weapon and 75% TS?
    Last edited by Mountaingoat; Apr 6th, 2011 at 00:49:08.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    Heal efficiency debuff will mean nothing to doctors. They have ICH on a shorter recharge.
    Interesting question actually. With ICH changing from a 100k heal to a 100% heal, will the heal eff debuffs affect it?


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