Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Third: I do wanna say, also, that what Xtrem said a bit earlier was mostly correct - Under our design direction for MPs, if an MP wants weapon damage, then they should consider going with a non-creation weapon. If an MP wants better buffs/nuking damage, then they should definitely go with a creation weapon setup. Again, not saying that we're on the money yet for the numbers, but there's a reason we're going to put all of this on Testlive for a nice while before shipping it to live.
    Does this mean that we will get some non-creation support after balancing? It's well and good to say "use a non-creation weapon" but we barely had any weapon support for years, and certainly not keeping pace with AR and evades of other profs. The only reason we didn't complain (much) in this department is that we had settled on being AS profs already, but that is being nerfed. When we look at the creation weapons as players, we expect this is the new "direction" FC wants us to go. It sorts out our AR problem but with the speed at which it fires (imagine trying to get a shot off while UBT'd) and our craptastic inits, this is just a useless SL-style bow. If they are still telling us to continue a schizophrenic neither-here-nor-there approach to weapons then we are just not going to cut it without some broken mechanic like AS to tide us over. The impression X has been giving us all along is that we should place our eggs in the creation weapon basket, but the stats of the new bow look pretty much like the generic staves that hardly anyone ever found a use for since 2003, even in PVM.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabslock View Post
    with this setup:
    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=89187

    i got 2450 mc/ts.....
    the big pet should be no problem at all...
    You almost reach the requirements to cast the pet with an absolute endgame defensive nanoskill nuker setup. Wow! MPs must have uber nanoskills. I am sure you can reach 2700 mc/ts easily too.
    You know how hard is it to get on a weapon for weapon classes? They must have to reequip it frequently.

  3. #503
    Kintaii,

    Damage Debuffs

    The Damage Debuffs really aren't as powerful as you guys seem to think. This is why MPs are not sought after team-mates for these buffs in actual play. Even in solo play, the Damage Debuffs don't make MPs the best soloers. I'm sure that you've seen the breakdowns that show the effects of init debuffs, reflect AC, AAO debuffs and evade buffs on massively reducing the actual contribution of the damage debuffs.

    The damage debuffs just aren't as powerful as they look - particularly in a boss raid environment, which is where they should primarily be of use.

    Normal Weapon AR

    As others have said, if normal weaponry is to provide a higher damage alternative, then the MP AR needs help. AS is being heavily nerfed for the MP, for normal use as a guaranteed damage source irrespective of AR.... so normal hits have to be important. Without more AR support, the normal weapon MP won't stand a chance.

    Nano Shutdown

    I could perhaps get on board with the NSD changes, if the immunities are being removed from bosses and all mobs are going to be changed, so that they use nanos much more - such as short term weaponry buffs for weaponry mobs, short term defensive buffs like reflect shields and evade buffs, more debuffs on players, more crowd control and not just nukes. This should all be alongside normal weapon hits from mobs - and not just on 'special casting mobs'.

    The basic premise should be, that the MP's NSD should be preventing around two important nano casts in its duration on most mobs.

    In PvP, you'll obviously need to look at the removers. It shouldn't be possible to remove NSD any more, when it's so restricted (and still subject to def check of course)

    Arrows

    When you go through the items, please make sure that Special Arrows can be used with creations and improve them considerably. It would be a good idea to allow MPs to 'create' bundles of those special arrows with Creation Nanos. They'd be the same as the ones available to everyone else... but the MP would be able to summon them - and they perhaps wouldn't be NoDrop, so that MPs could give them to others.

    NanoDmg/Heal Eff Mod Debuffs

    Heal efficiency debuff will mean nothing to doctors. They have ICH on a shorter recharge. Nano damage debuff is only about a 25%-30% debuff to NTs and up only 1/3 of the time... And they'll still have the ability to cap our HP with a 30% debuff on.
    But to be fair... without the MP NanoDamage/HealMod debuff, those professions would be much, much stronger.

    Our debuff may or may not get them into overall negative values on their %age Mods... but it massively reduces their available %age mods.

    Chrys on X

    The impression X has been giving us all along is that we should place our eggs in the creation weapon basket,
    Meh... removing my original response to this, in order to preserve sanity in this thread. I strongly disagree with this statement though.


    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:26:16. Reason: Typo
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  4. #504
    Nope. Docs have 40-50% heal eff. So that means 70% heal at least.

    People resist nsd a lot and it has too long cast time to use it well in pvp. ensd effect only docs, nts, advs as i noticed. They have perks to remove it, and 10 sec recharge makes u impossible to use it again. Atm we have to focus a lot on how/when to lend nsd in pvp.

    So if we can keep up nsd 1/3 of time, would be cool to remove the anti nsd perks. Or, if ppl use them, remove immun also.

    Kintaii: I understand you want to make us to choose between creation and non-creation weps. Thats good idea.

    But problems with this: creation weps are totally useless as weps. But, if i choose to go with non-creation wep: 0 buff support, crap symb support (only bow), IP are darkblue also cant raise it enough (10-15 points/sl lvl top), atm perk lines are locked.

    So EVEN if i choose non-creation wep, its just a little better. Faster weps for pvm yes, but for pvp, only Tigress useful coz AS (atm) i dont even care about base dmg of tigress, its slow (dont have inits) and cant even hit the target. So i just focus on AS. This is the way it should work for non-creation weps?

  5. #505

    Funcom employee

    Why are you guys spending so much energy, time, and focus on complaining about items as they currently stand in-game when we've said we're going to be changing items during the itemization portion of the rebalancing on many, many, many occasions?
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Why are you guys spending so much energy, time, and focus on complaining about items as they currently stand in-game when we've said we're going to be changing items during the itemization portion of the rebalancing on many, many, many occasions?
    Because forum is serious bizness ! mkay ?
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  7. #507
    I'm slightly confused where you are reading complaints about items, unless you mean the Creation Weapons?

    There are general complaints:

    1. Equipping stuff that boosts weapon performance rather than stuff that boosts nano skills will make casting the top pet tough. For weapon focused MPs, that means either swapping several items to get the pet out each time, or additional nano-skill support - which could come in perks, research, itemization, or further nano changes.

    2. Our AR with any non-creation weapon is terrible no matter what we do (and with creation 2hb weapons as well). We can make huge sacrifices in evades and nanoskills to get our Pistol skill as high as we can for instance, and our AR will still top out at around 2200 (this wasn't my calc, but the math looked right). For non-creation weapons to be a reasonable alternative to the creation weapon as cyberdeck approach, we need more AR. The most popular implementation appears to be a percentage AAO buff that scales with a nano skill, for instance an AAO buff equally 25% of MC. But a lot of other things could work (perks, different nano ideas, itemization, research, perk changes).

    Traditional weapon MPs need AR high enough to land regulars more than once in a blue moon - and whether we get it through itemization changes or via another method isn't really the issue.

  8. #508

    Funcom employee

    Edit: No, this is the right thread. ><

    The itemization thing comes in in that your armour, your symbiants, your general equipment *may carry more support for these non-creation weapons in the future*. Worries about AR at the moment are a bit moot because your calculations are still coming off of perks, research, and itemization which haven't been done yet. I can understand AR being a concern for people who don't want to go with non-creation setups, but it's a concern we're also well aware of.

    Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you may not have to make some choices and sacrifices - You may not be able to cast the absolutely end-game top pet if you gear up for using a specific weapon choice. You may have to make do with the second best pet. This is a *choice* - The decision is entirely up to the player as to how they want to gear up and equip their character. Part of the central focus of this process has been ensuring that people start having to make choices when it comes to their setup and playstyle - That people won't be able to do everything all at once at endgame just because they decide to swap out some gear. Do we want to get rid of gear swapping where we can as well? Definitely - We want people to feel viable and powerful without feeling like they have to switch entire armour sets. But we also want people to feel like they need to make a decision as to how they want to play their characters, to pick a playstyle and roll with it - And to be powerful and competitive while they're at it, of course, but to pick *something* and stick to it.

    Gear swapping will be diminished in the future, and we'll make sure that people get access to the tools they need - By the same token I'm also not going to sit here and tell you that EVERY play style under the sun will be supported, mind you. I'm sorry for those of you who are wanting to make that new piercing/ranged-energy MP but it just may not work out for you. :P Doesn't mean you're not welcome to *try*, but just don't come to me crying when you go splat in the Battlestation. ;P Otherwise, for what we define as the variable choices for a profession (and naturally going with a non-creation weapon should be a choice for MPs, even though you *will* be losing out in pet/nuke/buff power), we'll ensure that those choices are supported through the profession's itemization and other related changes.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    You almost reach the requirements to cast the pet with an absolute endgame defensive nanoskill nuker setup. Wow! MPs must have uber nanoskills. I am sure you can reach 2700 mc/ts easily too.
    You know how hard is it to get on a weapon for weapon classes? They must have to reequip it frequently.
    He doesn't even have perks inputted, and he didn't say whether it's with comp mochs and odin's or not.

    This setup http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=163811 gives me 2730'ish MC/TS. I can remove lots of nanoskill gear and still easily be higher than 2500 MC/TS. That is my normal config. Throw in swaps like a hud3 nano, beast helm (+30 MC/TS no ai req), phulaks, and some other nanoskill huds and I can boost it way higher. And the existing perk doc's will give us up to 160 more.

  10. #510
    So long as we have adequate (meaning markedly better than we've got now) support for Pistol (our only decent weapon skill IP wise), Bow, 1hb and 2hb I think most MPs will be happy with the range of weapon options .

  11. #511
    indeed. And also I totally agree on being able to cast ONLY the second best pet if I am using a non-creation weapon, if it works enough good, but make it be because of the lack of nanoskills, don't put a req on casting like "has to wear a creation weapon".
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  12. #512
    @Kintaii Our DD debuff arent OP! Atm I use it to try solo anything that hits between 1.5k and 4k. Below 1.5k its a kinda useless, while above 4k we dead anyway. Also... MPs are the best soloist till tl5; in tl7 we almost the crapiest soloist.

    I agree NSD are OP, assuming it will land on all boses. But 7s is so few in pvm.

    Quick question: No news on Creation weaps speed?
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  13. #513
    Kintaii,

    I'm reading generally positive noises from you there, both on suitability of some (potentially) out-dated armours/symbs etc... and also on non-creation weapon AR. That's good news.

    In defence of those of us here in the MP forum, it's tough to give feedback that takes future perk and itemisation changes into account... without really having much in the way of information on what those changes will involve. People are always going to tell you what they feel based on what's in front of them, to an extent.

    It always helps when you drop by and chuck us a bit more info though.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  14. #514

    Funcom employee

    For the record: Just spoke with Genele, next version of the doc will have 1hB/2hB/Bow buffs in your toolset. If you're a pistol user, though, you're gonna need to go find an Engineer or a Soldier or something like that if you want to get buffed. :P There's other stuff in there as well, but figured I'd go ahead and share that one since it's kinda been the hot topic as of late.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    For the record: Just spoke with Genele, next version of the doc will have 1hB/2hB/Bow buffs in your toolset. If you're a pistol user, though, you're gonna need to go find an Engineer or a Soldier or something like that if you want to get buffed. :P There's other stuff in there as well, but figured I'd go ahead and share that one since it's kinda been the hot topic as of late.
    OMG!!! When we will get our hands on new doc? And... maybe we are cying about things that already changed. Give us everything!
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    You almost reach the requirements to cast the pet with an absolute endgame defensive nanoskill nuker setup. Wow! MPs must have uber nanoskills. I am sure you can reach 2700 mc/ts easily too.
    You know how hard is it to get on a weapon for weapon classes? They must have to reequip it frequently.


    i think ENDGAME pet should mean ENDGAME setup, if the pet hits hard enough though.

    I can swap hud 3 and equipp Tigress, or either swap it to get new pet...with 1 item....
    So it shouldnt be hard for other 220 mp's, who havnt got endgame equip. They maybe just have to specialize a bit more.

    My perks: Nano Champion Maxed out, and Nano Doctorate at 7, so there is even some space in that Perkline too.

    BTW for me it would be enough to make that Bow skill green. I mean, if there are MP only Bows implemented, why dont give em skill support instead of buffs. Shouldnt be that hard.

    greets from rk1
    Tabslock
    Last edited by Tabslock; Apr 6th, 2011 at 22:49:46.

  17. #517
    Hehe

    Kintaii: Yes, we cry about things we know about, we saw, we noticed. We cant complain about future/undone/not ingame stuffs. But now im happy You know what was the probs before (well, right now) and you guys aware of it. But i must ask you to check the mp base skills too please. All dark blue wep skills i mean mainly.

    Just dont nerf non-creation wep users too much I wanna use top pets with Neleb's rod

    But realy: nsd will be totally nerfed if its only 7 secs long and ppl can remove it. Not to mention if we cant refresh it coz immun... If nsd will stay only 7 secs, at least it shouldnt be removeable.
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Apr 6th, 2011 at 23:07:47.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    For the record: Just spoke with Genele, next version of the doc will have 1hB/2hB/Bow buffs in your toolset.
    Now, just to change that silly melee and ranged inits reqs on creation weapons into nanoc init reqs, add some creation arrows and...
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  19. #519
    and... Klod will end his trolling madness?!

    P.s.: Just noticed we already have 26pages here.

    P.s.s.: Creation Weaps news???
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #520
    Anarchy Online was successfully removed from your computer.

    Time to move on for me. I guess I wont get my money for already payed time but there is not reasoning here and a waste of time. The most stupid thing I read was that a pet class should trade it for weapons instead of trading the nukes for weapons that is nonsense coming from a developer.

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