Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Can you name something that is, in general, as "nerfest" as we are, please? Maybe I missed something.
    I told you, that's not a game I am gunna play. There is no point in sticking my finger in everyone's face advocating how crappy MP's are. Too many already here do that sorta thing, and I have since gotten sick of reading about it.

    I can't say for certain who's the 'nerfest' because I am no developer, and therefor cannot offer anyone statistical proof that MP's are on the bottom of the ladder, nor the top. What I can say is that my experience differs from all the sheer volume of whining I do see here on the forums saying these things. I have yet to see anyone bring any shred of proof nor figures that say anyone is. Ergo, anyone who does is most likely full of it in my eyes.

    I actually asked our lovely game director this question, as to which prof would in fact be what you guys call 'the nerfest' and I got an interesting and ironic reply.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  2. #722
    I sometimes miss Sil. We got many shinies.

    He had the bad habit of creating lots of endgame empty halls but this one does the same anyway...

  3. #723
    Bubba, the proof you're looking for is easy to find. Ask lain or never or any mp pvper. Or go watch mp pvp videos. Just because you ignore the facts at hand doesn't mean we're wrong. It means you're in denial. There is no proof for mps not being the worst prof, and plenty to show we are. Welcome to anarchy online. Mps have been the worst prof in the game, both pvp and pve, for a decade. I've been along for the entire ride, my mp has a born date of dec 2001.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    If that actually happened, I would assume its because the MP in question had no idea WTF he/she was doing. I'd say it would fall way more on who's actually playing them.
    Unless you have grafts up your a dead man walking v any breed of shade

    This is bow obviously.
    Still here

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Unless you have grafts up your a dead man walking v any breed of shade

    This is bow obviously.
    Depends on who has the drop on who. If the MP in question sees the shade coming, and has enough room to navigate, or use his/her environment to their advantage - can kite if necessary - then you'd most likely see a much different battle.

    Same thing said in reverse. Shades = gank. Yes its easy to gank a MP with a shade, but like I said, it comes down to who has the drop on who. Years of borealis gank videos are proof of this. By the reverse, its harder for even a bow MP to gank, mostly because its hard to miss a big green freaking monkey coming at you. Methodology takes precedence.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Bubba, the proof you're looking for is easy to find. Ask lain or never or any mp pvper. Or go watch mp pvp videos. Just because you ignore the facts at hand doesn't mean we're wrong. It means you're in denial. There is no proof for mps not being the worst prof, and plenty to show we are. Welcome to anarchy online. Mps have been the worst prof in the game, both pvp and pve, for a decade. I've been along for the entire ride, my mp has a born date of dec 2001.
    LOLWUT

    man, to say MP's are the worst PVP prof you really need to assess the situation from an unbiased perspective.

    Try speaking truth before saying something that will incriminate your whole post.

    I can very easily name at LEAST 3 MP's who are capable of busting **** up in PVP on RK2.

    Bolrn, petmania, flynicist, and, if you get him annoyed enough to fight hard, chrisax

    The most effective MP's use a shield, are harder than to kill than a OSB'd keeper in a team with a crat and can debuff the crap out of any prof who is remotely dependent on nano functions in battle.

    Now, last time I checked, doctors were useful in PVP. Show me a doctor who can survive being called while 3000 point BM debuffed and I'll show you one or more less SB's in the opposing raidforce.

    In other words, MP's are awesome at using up and debilitating key defensive members of an opposing group. Same with MA. Ya, we have limitations, but, you have to have a balanced force in order to achieve success.

    So, no, you're wrong here. MP's are not the "worst" prof, in fact, they have very good utility.

    Maybe you want to duel? well, check out shield MP'd duel scores and tell me what you think about that.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    MP's are a LOT better than all the whiners admit.
    True story, just like that one I have in my sig.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  8. #728
    Been following this thread for quite a while now, and must say I'm rather amused by it all. Seems not much has changed.....


    First off, there's a lot of hyperbole in this thread. "ZOMG MP's are teh nerfest and have always been!" Well, while my forum join date isn't 2001 (though my game join date predates my forum join date quite a bit), I've been around long enough to know that isn't true. While it's true we've generally been toward the middle or bottom of PvP, there's been more than one occasion when we've been at or near the top (shortly after SL release and when Tigress/SS was first released both come to mind). But that leads me to my next point.....

    PvP is an accident.


    The fact is that much about PvP came into play unintentionally. The devs have publicly stated before that they don't "balance for PvP." You can look at pretty much any mechanic and figure that one out. AS, which works perfectly fine for PvM, broke PvP to the point where everyone used it. (Why would even melee profs use AS if it weren't broken?) Pets, which again work fine for PvM have major issues in PvP (mostly pathing and susceptibility to everything.)

    The problem for us is that most of the "good" PvP profs have parts of their toolset that gave them a huge boost in PvP, while ours remained decent for mass PvP but for the most part gave us no love in small PvP situations (duals, 2v2, etc).

    Even for MP's, our PvP love was mostly accidental. Tigress was a pretty clear PvP boost to our toolset, and so was SS...but not in the way it was intended. No dev would have ever considered us casting SS on ourselves. The DoT was clearly designed to avoid that situation....yet we found ourselves doing it anyway, and doing better for it.


    PvP also has always been "flavor of the month." While MP toolset hasn't changed all that much over the years, it's even affected us. For a while, pistol MP's were one of the better choices out there (Villagebike was who I modeled a lot of my choices after, if any of you olbies recall that name). Then came bow lub, and everyone switched to Tigress/SS and told everyone else to /qq. Then it was SoZ, or you didn't know how to PvP. It'll be something else soon, and most everyone flocking to it will have completely forgotten about the last PvP flavor of the month.

    While some profs have consistently done well in PvP (soldies, advies, MA's) most profs rise and fall depending on the latest patch release (NT's, Traders, yes even MP's). That's just a given. Somebody must "be the nerfest" at any given time.

    If you play an MP because you want to excel at PvP, you've made some poor life choices. Historically, MP's have not been top dogs in PvP (I'd argue we're not bottom either, but that's really neither here nor there). If you want to excel at PvP, go play a prof who's entire toolset is going to guarantee you excel, or go roll a flavor-of-the-month toon. You'd probably be far happier, and we all wouldn't have to listen to you whine.

    I'm fairly content with MP's being middle of the pack in PvP. We're designed as a support profession, and it looks like FC is trying to put us back into that role. That's a tough row to hoe, no one likes having stuff taken away from them.

    Back on the original topic, the changes I find interesting. I'm a bit concerned about some of our tools being taken away (CoC was quite useful in PvP, for example), but as I said above, no one likes to have their toys taken away from them. Doesn't mean you need to act like a 6 year old about it.

    Perhaps you need to go back and take a look at the original design for MP's:

    Meta Physicist

    The MetaPhysicists get their strength from the "other side". They can manifest their emotions in the material world and eventually control multiple materialized entities and use them in combat. The uniqueness of a MetaPhysicist lies in manipulating the underlying fabric of the world where nanotechnology operates, adjusting the nanotechnology skills of friends and foes alike. Their weapon skills are poor but they can use their powers to damage their opponents directly.
    We're not supposed to be a weapons prof (oops, Tigress). We're supposed to be a pet prof (when was the last time we got a new pet?), buff totem, and some nanodamage.

    I don't see this re-write as completely putting us back towards that, but I think there are some huge steps in the right direction here. I still do have some concerns, but honestly until we see how everything else shakes out, all this whining and moaning is just pissing in the wind. (Especially from a PvP perspective, as how powerful your toolset is depends directly on how powerful everyone else is).


    Finally, this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm...2t5to1_400.jpg

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Share it with us.
    The first thing he actually said is that no matter what his response was, most players (particularly PVP'rs) would probably call him a liar. I'm inclined to agree. My prediction is that every troll on this board with any sort of invested interest will call out not only myself but him as a liar anyway, regardless of what I said.

    I did not sign a non-disclosure agreement about it, but I have seen where talking about this sort of thing can produce a rawness between the staff and players, and since Means did something very nice for me last week, I'd rather let the developer staff shed some light on their own behalf.

    Truly, I laughed when he told us. We were all in the AO teamspeak server when we all talked about it.

    Edit: Welcome back Ebag.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    LOLWUT


    Now, last time I checked, doctors were useful in PVP. Show me a doctor who can survive being called while 3000 point BM debuffed and I'll show you one or more less SB's in the opposing raidforce.
    Cool, so as an mp I need a raid force behind me to kill a doc, awesome

    Shield mp's need one thing to do ok and thats a non moving target which happens in duels normally.

    Open pvp is kind of a joke apart from being hard to kill for most and just being a debuff tool, well debuff tool if BS is not included as everyone has a near instant ENSD remover there.
    Still here

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Shield mp's need one thing to do ok and thats a non moving target which happens in duels normally.
    If that is your only tactic, no wonder you have problems.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    If that is your only tactic, no wonder you have problems.
    Where did i mention my tactic???
    Last edited by Cryfreman; Jul 19th, 2011 at 16:55:58.
    Still here

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    The first thing he actually said is that no matter what his response was, most players (particularly PVP'rs) would probably call him a liar. I'm inclined to agree. My prediction is that every troll on this board with any sort of invested interest will call out not only myself but him as a liar anyway, regardless of what I said.

    I did not sign a non-disclosure agreement about it, but I have seen where talking about this sort of thing can produce a rawness between the staff and players, and since Means did something very nice for me last week, I'd rather let the developer staff shed some light on their own behalf.

    Truly, I laughed when he told us. We were all in the AO teamspeak server when we all talked about it.
    Ha! Ha! I can imagine.

    TBH, I didn't expect much of your answer anyways.

    P.S.
    And hai iBag. You are, as usual, wrong.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Where did i mention my tactic???
    Did you, or did you not state or imply that a shield MP needs only a target that is standing still?

    I have no idea if you are a SoZ user or not, but if that is the only requirement you have for needing to kill your opponents in PVP, then I suspect its more then likely the cause of having so much to complain about. After all, it must be terribly inconvenient to actually have a moving target. /sarcasm off.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  15. #735
    We are going to be checking in here frequently. Please, keep it civil people. This is a thread with a purpose and I, personally, don't want to lock it (But I will if I have to).
    Guardian Haquihana
    Forums Team
    Community Relations Department
    Advisors Of Rubi-ka
    Forum Social Guidelines

  16. #736
    so, where did I mention MY tactics??

    Or are you bending words just so you can argue and question other people's pvp 'skills', because we all know that using a shield takes alot of that

    I gone through being shield, hot swapping and god knows how many weapons, hiding behind a shield, with rrfe to make me feel like there is nothing wrong with my prof was to boring and killing power to slow for fast paced open pvp.

    Good for duels and making you feel great I suppose.
    Still here

  17. #737
    I have done very little bending of people's words in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    IF that is your only tactic, no wonder you have problems.
    Relevant portion highlighted. So if its not your tactic, why all the fuss?
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  18. #738
    While I do like the idea we are getting buffed in healing and nanoregen and nuke damage, it does not solve the problem. We brought that to the table already and its predominately overlooked. As the level of the game goes up, so does everyone else. The amount of overlook we'll get I feel statistically wont change.

    Therefore, we still need something. I have submitted ideas, and I have always liked the ones regarding AOE debuffs. Debuffs are by far and large, useful in almost any situation. Now all we need are ones commensurate with what our role implies.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Jul 19th, 2011 at 18:40:10.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    P.S.
    And hai iBag. You are, as usual, wrong.
    To quote yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    TBH, I didn't expect much of your answer anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haquihana View Post
    We are going to be checking in here frequently. Please, keep it civil people. This is a thread with a purpose and I, personally, don't want to lock it (But I will if I have to).
    All I gotta say is, good luck.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    Welcome back Ebag .

    Any thoughts on the "how do we get into PvM teams at TL7" question?
    Sure, double tigress with triple AS ofc.

    In seriousness, unless it's "sexy" (AS, FA, 100% reflects, million HP points, etc) we'll never be in high demand. The slot that we have traditionally filled (and I'd like to see us continue filling) is not a specific slot, but one to backfill and/or round out a team. Jack of all trades, master of none.

    To do that, we'd need to significantly boost certain parts of our toolset, mostly buffs, debuffs, and mezz/heal pet performance. I don't think the buffs as listed go far enough, but as I said before without seeing the big picture it's impossible to say because it's entirely relative, but you have nothing to compare it to.

    FC seems to be going the route of shrinking our toolset. I understand that some of that is happening anyway (debuffs, roots, snares, calms, stuns, etc have all be far too powerful for far too long), but I'd rather see them reduced rather than removed completely (EG: Curse of Chronos). Our problem hasn't been that we haven't had access to the tools, just that those tools were sadly out of date.

    If the concern is that we would be too powerful through debuffs, it'd be fairly simple to set it up so we had to pick and choose a handful of debuffs to run at any given time.

    Of course, MP's have always been a particular thorn in FC's side because of that very reason. Any time we got a bump to a line we were "stealing" someone else's toolset. So reducing the amount of tools we have available certainly does simplify things a lot, and that seems to be the direction they're going, a simpler and easier to learn game.

  20. #740
    @Knuckle: I notice the only mp in your sig is level 110. In short: the grass is always greener. And yes, there are a few people on both servers who play mp very well, but put them against an equally geared and skilled opponent from any other prof and they're going to lose.

    @Ebag: the point I was making about us being the worst is completely valid. Klod is right, you are wrong in this case. Every example you broughtt up merely caught us up to every other prof. Which means we were caught up and mediocre until the next patch, when everyone except us would get new toys, effectively nerfing us from middle of the pack back down to the bottom. Some people might remember a time when crat and traders were at the bottom with us.

    We haven't been the worst prof, but we've always been in the bottom bracket or brought up to the middle bracket, seemingly as an afterthought. And for what its worth, if fc is balancing for pve...they're not doing too good of a job, considering not one of us can come up with a good reason for an MP to be brought along in a tl7 team.

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