Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #361
    If you gonna separate then as Low-but-long-duration and High-but-low-duration nanos:

    - Low ones: -1.5k DD -0 init debuff; 30~60s duration; no cooldown and impossibility to cast it if the nano is already running (hell I liked this system).
    - High ones: -2.5~3k DD -500~600 init debuff; 10s duration; no cooldown; 10~15s immunity and impossibiliy to cast if the nano is already running.

    Ofc, both shares the same line and both blocks eachother. ^^ Its the best I can think wih DR idea and that I find OK and not so freaking OP.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #362
    Sounds very decent to me tbh
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    If you gonna separate then as Low-but-long-duration and High-but-low-duration nanos:

    - Low ones: -1.5k DD -0 init debuff; 30~60s duration; no cooldown and impossibility to cast it if the nano is already running (hell I liked this system).
    - High ones: -2.5~3k DD -500~600 init debuff; 10s duration; no cooldown; 10~15s immunity and impossibiliy to cast if the nano is already running.

    Ofc, both shares the same line and both blocks eachother. ^^ Its the best I can think wih DR idea and that I find OK and not so freaking OP.
    Sounds OK.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  4. #364
    I dont understand why we cant get % dmg debuff instead of a fixed amount?

    I also like the idea of small-long and short-high debuff:

    Small-long: ~20-25% dmg debuff (which would be 1-1,5k based on mob) 45-60 sec duration, no cooldown (so we can use on riads), moderate nano cost, stacking with every other line (ubt, crat craps etc)

    Short-high: 50% debuff for 10 sec, 2 mins cooldown. So it would be an emergency nano if tank close to reclaim. Nano cost would be 50% of pool (or even more). As i said: Emergency nano! Useful in pvp even, but not spammable. But in pvp, it shouldnt remove too much nano else its useless if we cant do anything after that.

    Yes, pet walking still terrible. I would say healpet and mezz pet should get 2x of caster run speed (and refreshing RS as u may get a gsf, at lower lvl). Other pet profs can survive on their own (without pets) much better coz a; cant perk them, or have inasne init debuff/mezz/few k aad perk b; they have spec block/coccon line

    We will have moderate def (not enough still if we cant combinate with something else) and seems nice healing from pet. But then we mustnt lose our pets! I pay 1b to anybody who tell me a crat who left his cib behind coz run too fast, or an engi who lost his coccon by zoning...

    Its pretty clear FC dont want MPs to use any strong spec attack. They gave AS once, and now taking back. (by forcing us to use other wep to use nanos, whole armor/perk lines) Tell me any other prof who dont have a strong spec attack! Maybe docs, but their perks and whole setup support pistol, and there is an enough good AS pistol (that all crats and most engis use also). Every other prof running with a strong spec attack, just we dont/wont! Its not fair imo. Ofc their perks and armors dont support AS directly, but dont have to give up ANYTHING to use AS! Its pretty common choice! For us, MPs, we always had to choose what to give up!

    And now we get a 3/3 bow.. lol the 1,6/1,6 was way too slow for pvm and damn hard to get near 11 sec AS...

    Also why the hell we get 2/2 and 3/3 weps? Makes no sense, we are capped around 1,2k init ( or so, not sure but not much more) Tell me where is the fair point of it? I never understand this, we are "forced" to use 2hb by armors/perks/research but those never worth to use after tl5. Damn slow, low ar, and for staffs even no spec attack.
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Mar 30th, 2011 at 21:20:02.

  5. #365
    Percentage damage debuff would probably require a slew of coding by Macrosun to make it work, if it's even possible, which is why we have asked for it and never heard word one on it, is my guess. It would involve putting in a new check somewhere in the damage calculations, assuming it's even possible.

    I'd thought of up to -1k on the longer debuff (lower for top RK, but you get the idea) and -2.5k on the anti-boss one.

    The problem with the long debuff, and all our debuffs really, is they're really oriented more towards pvp durations and timeouts instead of pvm. I don't mind the lockouts on the big debuffs, because if I were facing an MP in pvp with potential to permanently shut down every aspect of my character, I'd cry too, but this doesn't really take into account the fact that you basically need to have your brain plugged directly into the FC servers to be able to determine what debuff you're supposed to use in, say, a Beast raid to maximize effectiveness.

    With such short durations, you have to be able to see the future to know when best to use these debuffs, so having a second line for another option is a must.

    A lot of what we're going to look like is going to be riding almost entirely on how our pets look. This could all be moot because the new pet hits like a Mack Truck and outdamages everything else we could possible do and we don't need anything else, or it could be a slightly better performing version of Rihwen currently, and we have to go back to the developers and reassert our concerns. We're not going to be certain of our toolset aside from the healpet until we can look at a sheet and see the AR/AC/AAD/HP numbers for the pets and see what they're going to be.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Agree, and I still have some of my accounts payed for some time, but I don't see any reason to play them.

    And we lost many more things, blockers, AS, resistance...

    JustinSane4 - I read some post from someone that was telling people not to agg FC for the perk and balance documents because we should wait for the nano doc that would be awesome. Well, we got the nanodocument already and it is even worst than eXpected.
    Sorry about that. In hindsight I was overly optimistic at the point I made that post. This document wasn't how I was hoping things would turn out.

  7. #367
    I dont understand why we cant get % dmg debuff instead of a fixed amount?
    Waaaay back when Izgimmer designed the big damage debuffs for SL, his reasoning was that having a large absolute value was better and more powerful, because they could debuff a mob to 0.

    PsiRaven and I were Profs at the time and had running arguments with him about the damage debuffs and how hopeless they were, for all the reasons that we all still know. We begged and begged to have a %age value - and he refused it on principle not on technical grounds. He said, and I'm basically quoting, that he wanted Damage Debuffs to be "the MP's main contribution to teams".

    I think that we can all agree that they didn't quite turn out that way.

    I've had the same arguments with a variety of different developers over the years, both as a Prof and on the test server and in test forums etc etc... and they've always turned it down. I can't recall any of them saying that they really wanted to do it, but that it was a technical problem.

    Ho hum... twas always thus...

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    If you gonna separate then as Low-but-long-duration and High-but-low-duration nanos:

    - Low ones: -1.5k DD -0 init debuff; 30~60s duration; no cooldown and impossibility to cast it if the nano is already running (hell I liked this system).
    - High ones: -2.5~3k DD -500~600 init debuff; 10s duration; no cooldown; 10~15s immunity and impossibiliy to cast if the nano is already running.

    Ofc, both shares the same line and both blocks eachother. ^^ Its the best I can think wih DR idea and that I find OK and not so freaking OP.
    Aint this almost the same we already got but stronger? Why funcom had to change it?
    I don't see any pistol love in this nanodoc, nothing interesting enough and a total disregard for my and others playing style pity I've already lost my time reading it.

  9. #369
    Well, we got the nanodocument already and it is even worst than eXpected.
    Lol... nice touch.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    And then you'd hear a million reasons why prof X shouldn't be able to kill an MP, where prof X is whatever's annoyed any given player recently.
    How is that any different than now? The benefit of placing professions rather than picking specific skill values is that positions should not change while values must change with each new addition to a game.

    Of course there are flaws with any analytical system, but a system where the most can agree might provide the best chances to place a profession where people want it.



    Just a side note, but considering I am consistently happy with the majority of the nano documents save one in particular...I am starting to get sick of my own optimism lol. Someone troll me a bit so I can feel better.
    Last edited by Gatester; Mar 31st, 2011 at 02:47:55.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by sabandija View Post
    Aint this almost the same we already got but stronger? Why funcom had to change it?
    I don't see any pistol love in this nanodoc, nothing interesting enough and a total disregard for my and others playing style pity I've already lost my time reading it.
    I don't see any pistol love either. Which is bad.

    But what I see clearly is a completely nerf in my playstyle. And I'm trying to get it. If you didnt read the nanodoc well, I'll tell you: Our DD debuff got a big nerf in pvm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Just a side note, but considering I am consistently happy with the majority of the nano documents save one in particular...I am starting to get sick of my own optimism lol. Someone troll me a bit so I can feel better.
    You are happy cause now will be more easy to you kill a MP in pvp. /troll mode off :3
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the damage debuffs are too strong, they're basically anti-boss tools, and we were too used too using them as anti-trash mob tools (because of their power or lack thereof).
    Debuff being strong against boss mobs is precisely what will get MPs in teams, maybe you want more help with soloing but AoE mezz pet does that already.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  13. #373
    I kinda disagree with Dancingrage this one... I think they are anti-fixer tools, but won't be very useful in any situation PvM, boss or trash mob. Might make a situationally useful panic button I suppose, but seem inadequate for that as well.

  14. #374
    Why does everyone seem to think FC somehow set out to create all these nano documents based on their specific playstyle in mind? How absurd. I can empathize with players not wanting to abandon their current playstyle, however it may be, but thinking the nanodocs are going to be some end-all please-all solution is just unrealistic.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    I kinda disagree with Dancingrage this one... I think they are anti-fixer tools, but won't be very useful in any situation PvM, boss or trash mob. Might make a situationally useful panic button I suppose, but seem inadequate for that as well.
    Well, with their duration they're really PvP tools in general. Anti-weapon user, anti-nuker, anti-healer, and that's basically why they have the lockouts, because 100% of -2.3k damage would make anyone cry into their soup. That reduces most everyone to 0 damage. 15 bullet FA with 0 damage bullets will still do 0 damage (that should be funny to watch, actually) an AS with 0 as base damage...well, you can multiply by any number you want, result is still 0. It goes on.

    So I can understand the reasoning behind the lockouts, but I don't understand why they have to be in pvm as well, is my problem here, and I've made it known to the developers and thought up the split line idea (which Lainbr really did a good job expanding on)

    I'm not a fan of the basically unchanged gold and blue shields as well. More HP, more max nano, will equate to those shields being ignored still...we need more options in the face of almighty AAD, you know?

    I knew long ago that SoZ was going to get hit with the nerf bat so hard we'd never recognize it....and lo it happened. Thankfully we got a boatload of self evades to make up for it...sorta, but honestly the shields are sort of underwhelming in my book now, even the red shield line.

    Nuke power is somewhat concerning to me, I was expecting, honestly, something in the 2-4k range for our top nuke, not 4-8k. With Focused running that's a sure bet to kill a lot of folks, which is why I'm a bit more calm about the whole thing.

    Getting the healpet healing double was worth it. We can keep our pets standing now. Not all at once, mind you, but I think it's looking good for the attack pet tanking like it was meant to and the healpet healing it, you see where I'm going with this. If by some miracle our perk heals somehow manage to get to heal our pets as well...well then we're doing perfect in the pet healing regard!

    The mezzball is going to be more of a concern than before, because of the AOE attack and the fact that you can, you know, buff it for 160 for comps and mochams and then another 400 points for the top Construct Empowerment. Yidira has few problems mezzing top level content like Pandemonium Subjugator, and while underwhelming in pvp, rescaling and a 220 pet should really be a threat to look out for, to be honest. I'd like to see how they perform on test.

    A lot of what I want to know I can't see yet, which is the stat docs for the pets, really, the tale of that tape will really show us how we're going to do in terms of pvm and pvp. Above all others I really want to look at the stats for the 2.5k requirement pet...I want it to be worth the efffort to cast.

    And yes, I have no idea why we're getting DoT resist.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    Well, with their duration they're really PvP tools in general. Anti-weapon user, anti-nuker, anti-healer, and that's basically why they have the lockouts, because 100% of -2.3k damage would make anyone cry into their soup. That reduces most everyone to 0 damage. 15 bullet FA with 0 damage bullets will still do 0 damage (that should be funny to watch, actually) an AS with 0 as base damage...well, you can multiply by any number you want, result is still 0. It goes on.
    Er which profs other than MPs precisely have less than 2.3k damage per hit these days?
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #377
    why not to implement a countdown lock on our debuffs instead of immunity on the target? This way getting more than one MP in team would be a nice choice
    220/30 Lordlawrence
    200/2x Pampero
    Ever wondered what's like making an OP toon? 30/3 Forum
    25/3 Killergoa

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    You are happy cause now will be more easy to you kill a MP in pvp. /troll mode off :3
    Never! Although when NT's have their nano document and local cooldowns it is likely that the NT profession will replace MP as my favorite. Agent could be close as well depending on what their nanos end up doing.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Er which profs other than MPs precisely have less than 2.3k damage per hit these days?
    All pvper but soldiers (maybe) :3 Thats why I sugest 2.5~3k on short duration DD debuff, to really work as our "old" special blockers.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #380

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