Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #321
    Valour... it's not really so much about comparing to the other professions for the sake of it - or in a 'they got that so we want it too' kind of way. There are several important things going on:

    1) There is a widely held assumption that some of the MP debuffs have these heavy restrictions on casting, with cool-downs and immunities, because these nanos are considered to be extremely powerful... and so need to be tempered in some way to balance this great power.

    But it seems that other debuffs of somewhat similar power do not have the same restrictions - and so then this leads to questions of whether the MP debuffs are being fairly restricted - or whether there is some other reasoning behind the restrictions, which we are not seeing.

    2) Team Contribution has been a very important issue for the MP over the years. There has been little, over the years, to give a team a real reason for picking an MP over another profession. The weaknesses in the MP debuffs in PvM means that this looks to be becoming less of a reason for choosing an MP over another profession - particularly when similar debuffs of more power are available to other professions, who have other clear roles in teams.

    Relative contribution to teams is always going to be about relative balance.

    3) Sometimes it is necessary to understand the interactions with tools of another profession in order to grasp the overall balance. For example, the MP gains to an extent by the Crat Init/Dmg debuffs moving into the Doc line. It also means, that when considering improvements to the MP line, which should stack with the Doc line - then allowances need to be made in both to some degree.

    If it's too powerful to be able to have both debuffing at the same time... but the MP loses too much from having 1/3 up-time on the Dmg/Init debuffs, then we may want to ask for a more 50/50 up-time debuff for both Docs and MPs, so that a good level of debuffing could be managed overall. But if the Doc debuffs are to continue to have immunity/high resistances on key mobs... then perhaps the overall balance picture looks differently... and so the requests made should be modified.

    Sometimes, these discussions can look like sour grapes kinds of posts or like posts that are just based in jealousy or envy... but these discussions can form the basis of an informed discussion to find good solutions that suit the needs of all professions and the balance between players and mobs.

    In order to suggest good alternatives it is essential to understand the complete picture as well as possible.... and sometimes that picture can in fact be quite obscure.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  2. #322
    @Valour; No i think we should compare because this whole documentation about nanos, perks etc etc are about getting back balance in the game, if u dont compare it to any other profession then u get an objective improvement of what it used to be without seeing if that improvement is to big or to small.

    @Justinsane; That sounds reasonably good but i dont see what the -init debuff on the damage debuffs has to offer, its to small to be significant on its own and it wont really add much on the already landed UBT or Crat debuffs. In my opinion id be more than willing to sacrifice the -init for only the damage debuff that has the specs u named but in trade of loosing the init debuff we get -1.5k damage so that we get a big improvement. 95% of the damage debuffs out there in current documentation are ours and its special to us, the others dont debuff as much as we can and its a privilege we have. If we loose it the game looses a technique thats so basic that a 5 year old could think it up.

    What is the most basic way of taking less damage?
    5y/o: By reflecting it?.... No
    5y/o: By making it go to Nano?.... No
    5y/o: By Making sure that ur target doesnt have enough skill to hit the maximum cap of their weapon?...... To long sentence ofcourse not
    5y/o: By making them slower so that they wont hit u as often?.... seriously, what school did u go to, ur brilliant but thats not basic
    5y/o: By making the target hit u with less damage than normally?.... YES

    Its so basic that it cant go lost because u cast an immunity against ur own nano...

    Okay sorry im done ranting, ill shut up about it
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  3. #323
    @All crats so far: First, I do compare MPs with Crats cause: a) You completely nerfed/stole our team desireabiity/debuff getting Malaise. Yes, Malaise wasnt here in the begining. b) Any bump in Crat init debuff can mean a nerf in MP debuff power. c) FC is revamping pvm and maybe the bosses will lost -init immunity.

    @Justinsane: I LOVE U! <3 But I think -1.5k dd and no init debuff would be awesome better.

    @Devs: Actually, my playstyle is Heavy Debuffer. And this MP nanodoc just killed my playstyle and gameplay in general. I can keep 4 mobs full DD debuffed if I focus on it. I cast NSD in any mob with tricks (ever the ones ppl says its useless) I try kill Soldiers with MIMQ :3 (and some times they really die \o/) I use DD debuffs in pvp. I RAGE when theres a Crat in raid and can't cast my DD debuffs, and rage more when I see they not debuffing. I shine in happiness when there are no Crat in raid (In 5/july/2008 I was in a sucessfull 8 Man Beast Raid WITHOUT A CRAT!!! OMG HOW I LOVED IT!!!! ZOMG!)

    Final note: Yes, I hate crats most of time :3 They always are slacking instead of debuff and when I get tired and start debuff myself they rage blame me ^^
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    I've got an idea on the Damage Debuff situation, and would like to see what everyone thinks of it.

    New line of nanos, same nano-line but lower stack order than the DD debuffs in the current doc, PvM only. They would have a 5 second cool-down, 60 second duration, 1 second recharge (identical to the Crat and Doc initiative debuffs). The top nano would debuff damage by 1,000 and initiatives by 250 (roughly equal to the -920 damage and -262 initiatives from the debuffs we have today) and could if necessary carry a large nano-cost.

    The thinking behind this suggestion: The damage de-buffs in this document really look to be vastly better in PvP rather than PvM, with particular utility against professions that use burst and full auto. Players in general have far lower damage per hit than the tougher PvM mobs, so much so that against players the current doc's DD debuffs are virtual regular hit shutdowns, whereas against tough PvM mobs it might be a 30% damage debuff.

    A recurring concern in the nano-doc discussion thread in the MP forum is that the proposed damage debuffs won't actually impact team PvM survivability. If the team can heal the tank enough to survive the 20 second immunity, it could probably heal the tank indefinitely without the debuffs at all. If it doesn't actually effect survivability, it doesn't actually help (and won't get us any team invites). On the other hand, a debuff with a 100% uptime would be useful - doctors and tanks prefer an even flow of incoming damage, and if we could offer a steady damage reduction they might actually invite MPs along for debuffs.

    The other problem that this would solve is that the DD debuffs in the doc are a nerf over those we have right now in PvM in total damage reduction/minute, and I don't think we actually deserved that nerf, or that it improves the game in any way.

    Opinions?
    If you really want a team beneficial nano, couldn't you have a buff that effects a single target as a defensive proc? 50% chance to fire off our current damage debuff, pvm only, and would have the same duration and cooldown on targets. The damage debuff may need to be reduced to around 1600 or something, but could be allow for a meaningful damage mitigation buff that would actually work without depleting our entire nanopool.

    In a sense, anytime you have adds it should be firing if the tank is doing his job, and the cooldown would not make him immune to all damage but cycle through damage immunity against a few of the adds at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Nah. I'll rather take the "5 sec cooldown, 60 seconds duration" version of the proposed "2k-ish dmg debuff, 400ish init debuff, 3k-ish nano cost" nano. Heck, you can even boost the nano cost in that case.

    Thanks.
    That would be really difficult to cast on multiple targets and makes 1 on 1 encounters in pvm a bit too easy would it not?




    On a sidenote, I was thinking of an idea to boost MP desireability which could be extended to the NTs as well. How about a sort of nanopool leaching effect, where the MP or NT could cast a friendly buff on a single target with the effect of taking half of the targets nano cost directly from the MP's or NT's pool instead. It would take place after the targets %nano cost and would pretty much double the targets casting potential.

    I think paired with any heavy casting profession this would make MP's and NT's highly desireably in both PVM and PVP.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    Not only that. They also get teams better, do better damage and level faster even despite players knowing that half of them don't try. I can definately empathise with any crat hatred; just unfortunately no one else hates them enough not to team them.
    I stopped teaming them because their %xp gains did not make up for their xp pistols, crappy pet, lack of using charms, and near afkness over even a 160 toon who at least tries to actively do damage

    Teaming crats sight unseen is usually a bad idea.

  6. #326
    i see your point but from peoples posts here, i only see them comparing debuff power to crats etc - to cut a long story short, all i can muster is basically along the lines of "every other prof is doing xxx much damage/debuffs/ w\e, mp's need to do xxx much also,

    i dont have a paid mp but i do have a froob one and basically is only for pvm, if these nsd times do come in, then theres pretty much no point in rolling an mp as a froob, which means there will be more buff begging for paid people, less froobs coming into the game, less diverse community, and nuking bosses that froobs like me raid, will be unkillable

    talkin in terms of HI and IS - hezak etc (takes 30 of us or so to take these bosses down with NSD landed on them permanently, otherwise raid will whipe and completely makes having level 200 froobs worthless for anything other than buffing totems!)
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
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  7. #327
    Unless Devs are modifying mob nuke damages 7s of NSD is probably gonna kill a solo MP, for example using the 7s and 21s immunity for NSD debuff on mobs this is what will likely occur against say a 261 City Raid Hacker'Uri:
    Paraelemosis casts NSD on Hacker'Uri
    Nanoprogram Successful
    Nanoprogram NSD stops running on Hacker'Uri
    Hacker'Uri casts Viral Heat on Paraelemosis for 6,124 points of damage
    You countered Hacker'Uri's casting of Viral Heat(this is with 2300 NR)
    Hacker'Uri casts Viral Heat on Paraelemosis for 5,924 points of damage
    You might just barely get off a second NSD by that point but you'll probably be at 10%(with heal pet healing) so the next one would probably kill.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    5y/o: By making the target hit u with less damage than normally?.... YES
    One might think so.

    But trader proves its not a very safe way of protecting one selves.
    What was the lockout on one of those damage debuffs?
    Remember you can only debuff one target in a given time-frame.
    Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
    Freshman Jefferey"Bailan2"Ginsberg - Retired
    Shareidah - First Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    it's written in the bible.
    Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
    A Producer's point of view

  9. #329
    Thats why it goes into one debuff opposed as into three different ones which it is currently.

    If ur as mad as to pull 10 mobs then now u have ur mezz pet, i dont see it as particularly usefull to live for 7 seconds longer if u pull 10 mobs manage to debuff them all so that they dont hit u that hard for a short while

    Ull live those 7 seconds but then afterwards ull have taken a possible 5% of the mobs Hp which in most cases wont kill it, and ull die afterwards anyways because ur debuffs have run out. It would only be usefull if ur low hp and want to run away, then again while running away ud need to stand still for a split second to cast the debuff... not really handy to stop while running away.

    I do however see that debuffing damage isnt the best protection, it is however an easy one, and i still see it as a loss if it were to come out like this
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Valour View Post
    i see your point but from peoples posts here, i only see them comparing debuff power to crats etc - to cut a long story short, all i can muster is basically along the lines of "every other prof is doing xxx much damage/debuffs/ w\e, mp's need to do xxx much also,

    i dont have a paid mp but i do have a froob one and basically is only for pvm, if these nsd times do come in, then theres pretty much no point in rolling an mp as a froob, which means there will be more buff begging for paid people, less froobs coming into the game, less diverse community, and nuking bosses that froobs like me raid, will be unkillable

    talkin in terms of HI and IS - hezak etc (takes 30 of us or so to take these bosses down with NSD landed on them permanently, otherwise raid will whipe and completely makes having level 200 froobs worthless for anything other than buffing totems!)
    Or FC could modify pvm.

    Quote Originally Posted by rizma View Post
    Unless Devs are modifying mob nuke damages 7s of NSD is probably gonna kill a solo MP, for example using the 7s and 21s immunity for NSD debuff on mobs this is what will likely occur against say a 261 City Raid Hacker'Uri:
    Paraelemosis casts NSD on Hacker'Uri
    Nanoprogram Successful
    Nanoprogram NSD stops running on Hacker'Uri
    Hacker'Uri casts Viral Heat on Paraelemosis for 6,124 points of damage
    You countered Hacker'Uri's casting of Viral Heat(this is with 2300 NR)
    Hacker'Uri casts Viral Heat on Paraelemosis for 5,924 points of damage
    You might just barely get off a second NSD by that point but you'll probably be at 10%(with heal pet healing) so the next one would probably kill.
    Are you saying MP's cannot do city raids, or in fact any kind of pvm activity against nano using monsters without the use of NSD? Are you also insinuating that team-based activities such as city raids should continue to be soloable?

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    @All crats so far: First, I do compare MPs with Crats cause: a) You completely nerfed/stole our team desireabiity/debuff getting Malaise. Yes, Malaise wasnt here in the begining. b) Any bump in Crat init debuff can mean a nerf in MP debuff power. c) FC is revamping pvm and maybe the bosses will lost -init immunity.
    I always wondered why init debuffing went to crats and not boosted on MPs.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  12. #332
    Just thought about the debuff once more and im sure its already been suggested but ill do it again if it has. Why not make the damage debuff work like the calm/root from mezzpet, by making the debuff run in one particular way in pvp and another way in pvm. Cause im assuming that the problem with the debuff is its powers in pvp.
    Also if they have to do that its more advanced, harder to make it go right and thats possibly the sort of challenge the coders want, seeing all the different approaches on nanos in the passing nano documents.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Or FC could modify pvm.

    Are you saying MP's cannot do city raids, or in fact any kind of pvm activity against nano using monsters without the use of NSD? Are you also insinuating that team-based activities such as city raids should continue to be soloable?
    No but soloing was one of the few fun things we were able to do and nsd was needed for the hardest (but most enjoyable) fight like Nyame, 250 named Horror, mortig or dragon, catacomb boss, Hezak ... (the 2 dd debufs and 2 evade proc were needed too).

    I fear that nothing will change for mp at rebalance ... not needed in team, perkable by any prof with 3K AR or 2K5 nanoskill (this one is new ^^) man that was our biggest problems

    DTP + more heal will not save us against any alpha ... ti's far from the ohsh** buton acrobat/cib or biococoon perklines give.

    I hope our new dd will save us against few pvp encounters at least .

    Trading some def+debuff for heal+dd wasn't the best choice imo but why not .. let's try.

    edit : From a TL7 point of view ofc.
    Last edited by Leduc69; Mar 29th, 2011 at 17:01:24.

    Leduc69 Soli MP 220/30
    Duckz Trox FIX 220/30
    Duczor Opi MA 220/25
    Theducman Nano NT 165/23
    Lazzay Soli CRAT 150/20
    Ducshot Trox TRAD 141


    Chest-kicker since 2007 - http://thespartans.org

  14. #334
    We could say that the numbers we have now reflect an MP perkable by anyone, alphable by anyone, and could potentially ignore our toolset, but that ignores the point of the rebalancing. The rebalancing effects not just these nanos and perk values, but it would supposedly alter the very base numbers of each profession we have grown accustomed to. Expressing our fears is ok but maybe we should start looking at the issues a different way?

    Who should be able to perk MPs?
    Who should be vulnerable to our toolset?
    Who should be able to remove our tools?
    Which professions should we frequently counter offensive nanos from?
    Where should MP's rank among others in damage dealing?
    Where should MP's rank among others in healing/nano regain?

    Perhaps if we only focus on where we should be or should rank, rather than what the numbers should be while every profession is being changed, it would be easier to actually place MP's where they belong in the end.

    So, rather than saying " it is not right that anyone with 3k AR will perk MPs based on this documentation", statements such as "only enforcers, keepers, soldiers, and agents should have the AR to reliably perk MPs" (note no specific defense or offense values were given) may be more effective in a balancing sense. This is something I would like the professionals to set up actually, a series of statements to allow people to argue how they should relate to others rather than arguing about exact values.

  15. #335
    Problem being now is a small DTP/heal to cover between 5 to 10 blockers depending on recharge.

    Run around a corner in bs with blockers up into x amount of people with 5 specials between them and you have a chance to get out of there with little damage to yourself, depending on there perks of course. Now its going to be instant death.

    Something like a shade alpha that all ready pawns us... now we got the shade specials to add into the mix
    Enfo and sneak..

    Just two prof's I can be bothered to mention that all ready headbut the keyboard to kills us now will be doing even more damage.

    Guess I can just stand still and try and kill them with my new uber nukes.... if it didnt mean dying in a few seconds obviously.

    No more kite skills if we need to stand still nuking things to have a chance of killing someone, which is a HUGE problem.
    Still here

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    That would be really difficult to cast on multiple targets and makes 1 on 1 encounters in pvm a bit too easy would it not?
    No, not really. Not like you will be forced to cast the highest debuff only, on ALL the targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    Klod, there has been nothing to suggest the Devs are willing to give us anything anywhere close to that, unfortunately. I'd love it, and personally I think it would be pretty darn balanced given UBT as a precedent, but this is one of those things that Devs make the call on, and I'm trying to come up with something we might be able to actually get.
    I had in mind this as PvM version though. PvP can get halved damage reduction (we all know how well that worked).
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #337
    If I come back I'll miss CoC
    Neverest 220 NM MP PVP setup

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Who should be able to perk MPs?
    Who should be vulnerable to our toolset?
    Who should be able to remove our tools?
    Which professions should we frequently counter offensive nanos from?
    Where should MP's rank among others in damage dealing?
    Where should MP's rank among others in healing/nano regain?

    • Who will able to perk MP's:
      • Everybody else but Docs, some MP's and def setup Agents (they will exist after rebalance?)

    • Who will be vunerable to our toolset:
      • Soldier, Fixers, Docs, Advs and NTs.

    • Which professions we will frequently counter offensive nanos from:
      • Hmmmm.... er......hm..... Soldiers, Fixers and Shades?

    • Where MP's will rank among others in damage dealing:
      • Everywhere (only Engs, pvm Shades and Crats are above us, I think)

    • Where MP's will rank among others in healling/nano regain:
      • S42, some supercrowd situation...



    That in TL7 Viewpoint. Things are not so bad in lower ones.
    ___

    But I guess its not the answers you want. But... I'll answer what I think things should be:


    • Who should be able to perk MPs?
      • High offensive professions in offensive setup - Soldiers, Enfos, Keepers and maybe Shades.

    • Who should be vulnerable to our toolset?
      • Everybody? We should be heavy debuffers, which means we should lay on debuffs to kill and survive.

    • Who should be able to remove our tools?
      • With such durations and immunity system? Nobody

    • Which professions should we frequently counter offensive nanos from?
      • None? Since we should be heavy debuffers, including nano skills debuffs, we should prevent players to land the top deadly nanos.

    • Where should MP's rank among others in damage dealing?
      • We should be above average cause we are a mini-army, but we shouldnt be so damn top cause WE SHOULD BE DEBUFFERS!

    • Where should MP's rank among others in healing/nano regain?
      • We should heal less than Advs and more than MAs. We should be the top nano regainner.


    If you skip all mini-wall of text: MPS SHOULD BE DEBUFFERS!!!
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  19. #339
    I think you guys underestimate the effect the pet damage absorb in combination with better heals and slower perks will have on alphas against MPs.

    Other than that, can't say a lot about PvM damage yet, since the pets are being reworked completely. You're even getting an entirely new one, so impossible to predict it's damage output.

  20. #340
    Technically its actually not a totaly new one, its the old rihwen nano with a new mesh and new stats. Rihwen itself is becoming lvl 215 as a mesh no idea if he keeps the stats he had as a 220 pet tho

    Edit: Btw why cant Mezz pet be 220 like the other two? It would add some extra confusion
    Last edited by Metafly7; Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:49:53.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

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