Not really. Why MPs shouldn't have similar abilities?Originally Posted by Bonghigs
With regards to MP, you're comparing apples to oranges and it makes your post a bit silly
BTW, still waiting on answer about pets. Will they be usable on any playfield, or just SL?
Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress
MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds
The tank morph CANNOT TANK in a strong team.
If an enforcer spams the 10000 taunt today, then he would lose aggro to almost EVERY profession and be unable to tank because that is not enough taunt for enforcers. They lack damage and their healing aggro is very minor. Adventurers will be taunting less often, have no healing agg, and their damage will be too low to maintain aggro over any damage dealing profession.
No one would replace a soldier, keeper, or enforcer tank with an adventurer tank because a 18000 to 23000 max health tank with weak static reflects and pathetic ability to control aggro is not a desireable alternative.
Let me break this down further:
Choosing a tank:
Adventurer or Enforcer = Enforcer
Adventurer or Soldier = Soldier
Adventurer or MA = MA
Adventurer or Shade = Shade
Adventurer or Keeper = Keeper
Adventurer or Agent = ?
Choosing a healer:
Adventurer or Doctor = Doctor
Adventurer or MA = Adventurer
Adventurer or Agent = ?
Adventurer or MP = ?
Choosing a damage dealer:
Adventurer or Shade = Shade
Adventurer or MA = MA
Adventurer or Engineer = Engineer
Adventurer or Crat = Crat
Adventurer or NT = NT
Adventurer or Soldier = Soldier
Adventurer or Trader = Trader (far more team DD before any ignorant comments)
Adventurer or Keeper = Adventurer
Adventurer or Fixer = Adventurer
Adventurer or Agent = ?
Choosing a support prof/mezzer:
Adventurer or Crat = Crat
Adventurer or Trader = Trader
Adventurer or NT = NT
Adventurer or Keeper = Keeper
Adventurer or Engineer = Engineer
Adventurer or MP = ?
Adventurer or Shade = Shade
Adventurer or Agent = ?
Very few cases does it even seem viable to replace any other profession with an adventurer. If you cannot comprehend what an adventurer is based on this documentation, it is not a "do anything" profession, it is a supplement any role profession. If you need slightly better healing, they can help, if you need another support mezzer, they can help, if you need some more DD now, they step up, if something goes FUBAR with the tank then they might be able to pull the aggro long enough to straigten things out.
As far as the massive crying from the agent(s), this is not what you really want is it? To never be better than anyone else for 9 years has been THE position of agents. The adventurers in this document are like a tl5 version of every tl7 except in the area of damage, which is the state of agents for so long. The only difference is that adventurers will have slightly better tools and adaptability, but they are not viable substitutes for another profession. Agents need a way to combine toolsets or have unique ways of using other profession toolsets, not to be a pathetic knockoff of everyone better than they are.
I would not mind MP's to be a profession with a little bit of everything at the same time.
No playfield restrictions mentioned in the spreadsheet, and I'm assuming none are intended; would be silly to try to make them more useful otherwise. But I don't have an official answer on that.
Very nice post.Particularly in agreement about this second paragraph.
Advisor of Lumen Orien
My complaint is that advs can practically eliminate the need for other professions now. They may be second best relative to other professions who specialize, but honestly in the vacuum of that profession being around as a comparison you're new abilities ARE objectively quite powerful. I was always under the impression that the reason different professions exist is to spread out abilities, each bringing something unique to form a successful team. These new changes allow advs to fulfill every critical role. It's killing team diversity.We've had calms for a loooong time... yes they were non-aggro'd mobs only but this really isn't that big a deal. We're hardly tied for the best calmers in game because we can only do it if we aren't in a morph (which has countless other detriments) and with a 15s timer between morph switches it's not exactly practical to swap around all the time. As to taunts, if they're going to give us a tank morph (not new, just making lizard not-completely-useless) then it would make sense that we get taunts too.
I really don't see what the complaint is here... we're not good enough at any of these to out and out replace other professions... we're simply a mostly-viable option when none of those primary professions can be found. What, -exactly-, is your complaint here?
With regards to MP, you're comparing apples to oranges and it makes your post a bit silly
I'll never understand how people can compare professions side-by-side while leaving out half the toolkits and expect it to be a cogent argument
You can use another profession's best attribute extremely well or even identically while always having another important role you can switch to very quickly. And that second part is what has the potential to make you more valuable than the original profession, especially for things like calming and reflects. Is this not the same balance issue agents face? Ie why fp has an extremely drastic nanoskill and/or -init debuff attached, the availability of nanos to fp are restricted, and why tp has a 30 minute cooldown?
The only justifiable role imo that advs should have drastically been boosted in is healing (and at expense, sorta like in the docs), or more specifically team healing. There are currently several tanks that can tank to differing degrees (albeit only one with meaningful taunts instead of damage...) but only one meaningful team healer. The other roles that an adv will now be able to do are already crowded enough.
And whats apples to oranges about comparing a jack of all trades (adv) to a jack of all trades (mp)? It's overall profession design philosophy we're talking about, not an itemized list of tools.
wow,
Broadly happy with doc. Bit taken aback at the breadth of changes.
My 1st question is with all this flexibility, what is my symb/perk/armour setup going to be?
Isn't the equipment needs of a healing setup going to be different to a dps setup to a tanking setup etc? Do I have to start carrying around different sets of armour that can be hotswapped as fast as i can shift morph...?! This isnt even to mention perks, where i may want difference perks according to roles etc.
Other than that niggle, good stuff!
'Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.'
Fhinn, TL7 Neutral Gunslinger // Countinn, TL5 Neutral Trader
Sleekitt TL5 Clan Fixer
Shattered Dreams, of ye olde RK2 Recruitment thread
Why'd they change the single heals' names? I liked the old ones better.. they sounded more advy'ish.
Meleny - Solitus Adventurer Tomb raider wanna-be.
Meriah - Solitus Shade Stilettos on feet AND hands!
Valligan - Solitus NT Five fingers of mass destruction!
Nathex - Solitus Agent Covert buffage, or debuffage.
And an entire army of lowbie gimps!
Hey Mel!Why'd they change the single heals' names? I liked the old ones better.. they sounded more advy'ish.
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Citymusic08 - 220/30/70 - Fixed!!!
Alts
Citytank Enfo 220/21 2hb love please!
Drtrey Doc 220/17
Citycrat Crat 202/20
Treyeb04 Enfo 60/6 2hb here too lol
Dealornodeal Trader 25/3 Subway Trader
Saxobul3 Agent 150/18
Citykeeper Keeper 200/19 BS/S7 Twink
Good opinions based on current game mechanics and no actual testing. It was enlightening, truly.
Just to give you a heads up, FC is probably ignoring most of what you say because they are not dumb enough to believe you. Second best is such an unbelieviably horrible term to use because it has no quantitative support to it. I could say MP's are the 2nd best 2hb and 1hb users, but do you honestly think that makes MP's anywhere near as effective as enforcers using those weapons? NT's are the best nukers, crats are 2nd best, but we are talking about a 200,000 DPM difference in nuking capabilities here.
You need to just stop with this obviously ignorant ranting about how tl5 level specializations somehow allows adventurers to replace core professions in a team. It's like saying "we do not need a 220 doctor, this 170 doctor is plenty for our pande raid."
Adventurers were hardly ever teamed or desired as it is, and ONLY when their ability to immobilize themselves using tree form was advantageous. How can you say adventurers with less can be desired more in the future? The only instance that makes adventurers desireable based on this documentation is Collector, and unfortunately adventurers were already desired there because of the tree form rooting, so they gained nothing.
Last edited by Gatester; Feb 19th, 2011 at 21:43:01.
If I could enlighten you I would have performed a miracle similar to Jesus walking on water. No one is that gifted this day and age. If you think a tl5 enforcer can outtank my 220 using single taunts, then by all means believe this to your heart's content.
Good post, nice to see someone making sense, rather than the usual NERF cries by people who don't seem to have a clue about anything..
Sultry, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now and it's getting increasingly harder for anyone to take you seriously
Colawren - Gimpest stripped adventurer on RK1.
Reroll Enthusiast.
The alts: Colawrenn, Iriotz, Empea
Proud member of Forsaken and Unity of the Rose.
I was trying hard to make sense too.
Gatester's list was pretty good, though. heheh.
You can't argue it both ways. Choose one.
Advisor of Lumen Orien
I won't argue for nerf or not.
It's not the core of the problem here : if i read well & know the game enough (said to not over-estimate myself), the goal was to stabilize advies -than anyone reasonnable could consider as too gifted in all areas for balancing goodness- without ruining the essence of this particular profession.
Out of all considerations, and even if i'm waiting for real testings (especially perk side), i admit i'm definitely liking the way things are presented here : each morph will be equally available to advies (tank, heal, reet, leet, wolf, kittie, or no morph) & all these transformations will now have a sense, a specialization -with weaknesses and strong points.
This is reinforcing the ability of shapeshifting that advies (along with agents) are supposed to have (/mode manimal on), removing old ones very fewly used (e.g. : tree) & MOST OF ALL without keeping this senseless heal/as/coon/evade/resist combination that made the prof unreachable for too long.
In short, again, as for trader drains, this is a great rework wich needed to be *endly* done.
No way, even with the imporved procs I don't think people would pick shade over advy for support purposes.
yeah don´t think so too, but this one seems to be the only error in the whole list more or less.
besides that Gatester and Red have my fully support on most of their posts
I use second best as a result of "quantitative support", ie numbers. Healing numbers, reflect numbers, taunting numbers, etc. Being second best at a stat like 2hb is completely different than being second best at an entire paradigm like taunting/tanking. Which is where my beef lies. The adv changes devalue and steal from other professions. In the case of healing it's much needed. For calming, taunting, and self reflects it's completely uncalled for.
I'd just like to throw out there too that though advs taunts are less than an enfs, their damage is way higher. They also have things like Backstab and Full Auto that when combined with taunts will provide huge agg spikes which will go a long way to closing the gap between enf and adv taunting abilities.
I managed to get through the document and want to talk about a few more things in this post:
Calms: I'm a bit dual minded on this one (well the way my mind jumps around, it's more like triple or quadruple minded
At one side I quite agree with Shirayuki that mezzes are OP and are a thing for the magic classes. Calms are a pretty strong tool (I'd consider it about my most important defence as NT in pvm). It gives advy's a bit too much functions, making them too popular.
At the other side, the cooldowns are somewhat long, the AoE mezz only works in an area 15m around advy and they only last 2 min. And you miss out on some morph-specific buffs. Maybe it's enough restrictions.
BUT: It's barely enough to make crat a better calmer in most situations. Especially at low levels it's unacceptable how good advy does: very low reqs (128 BM / 108 SI), 2 minutes duration (muddled psyche from crats with 584PM/SI req only lasts 1 min). I really don't get it.
I also don't get what all the different versions of the advy AoE mezz are for: isn't the only difference the init debuffs which have no use in pvm...?
Anyway, I really don't think advy should be better calmer then NT/trader and the AoE factor really screws that up.
At yet another side: good calms might actually make me want to play advy. I really like calms
Stacking order/buffs on others
I noticed advy buffs really have a lot of conflicts with other buffs now, which kinda worries me: it might get complicated with things overwriting unwanted things (e.g. gsf overwriting morph or the other way around. I went through the doc again, and it seems less worse then I initially thought though. I do believe Ruse should stack with morphs though.
I've also been thinking: shouldn't there be an (other) version of tank morph and/or healing morph? Doesn't really seem fair non-advies lose pit lizard buff and it would be awesome to get both those morphs castable on others too
Note: isn't the crit chance at low levels a bit high for cat morphs? (9% for lvl 1-24)
Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!
i don´t think that an advs damage in Tank-Morph will really be higher than Enfs damage.
And Backstab erm yeah sure, because when you tank the monster is fighting against someone else showing you it´s back
So i think the gap will be pretty high and no "real" raid can have an adv as tank, this may work for small 2-4 people teams maybe...
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