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Thread: Shade nano changes discussion

  1. #21
    The procs system is being redone completely for all professions. We currently have 2 procs, the APF and the SL procs. Before these changes we more or less had it like this: APF proc for support, and the SL procs as a utility to choose how you will fight what you are fighting. All procs will cast 100% of the time provided the shade lands a regular hit.

    The new proc system so far looks like this: Basic Nanite Depravation (the lower version of Nanite Depravation) has been upgraded to replace nanite depravation completely. It gives the shade no extra benefit than it previously did, except now we don't even need the NR debuff (since we lose SHD). It helps others by debuffing all the evades. It uses the same amount of NC thankfully.

    Nanite Depravation has been changed to our nanodrain proc, uses 1 more NCU, and is just under double the power. It's considerably much stronger for the sacrifice, and was previously named Chthonic Dissipation. It has a detaunt attached to it.

    SHD has been changed from our HP leech nano to a new proc (that cannot be used with the nanodrain proc from before as it is in the same nanoline). This proc heals for 200 points of HP while dealing 400 points of damage to the target (unsure if reflects, absorbs, etc mess with this in any way). This is done per successful hit and costs 55 NCU to hold in your NCU (whereas SHD took less when the healing portion was in your NCU, I'm fairly certain that with a full NCU SHD would still cast the healing component in your NCU). Evaders would become harder to fight, as you have no SHD to cast, you would be dependant on regular hits to land to heal for a smaller amount over a longer bit of time, and you have to be in range so that the CCer professions can neglect you that much while you are under the effects of CC. What was once "enough" has been changed to not enough.

    Depravation of Celerity SL proc has been upgraded to debuff 150 more inits per init, but the -init effect has a very short 3 second duration on target from the current state of 10 seconds.

    In summary: it's almost completely nerfs. Almost every nano takes more NCU to hold, some nanolines are split so that we need to cast more nanos and therefore use more NCU. Our agility has been cut down by 50 points, our AAD by 45, we lose 45 add damage, our AR by up to 13-14, our evades have been increased substantially (140 for the ranged evades, 200 for clsc), our healing is now based on being in range of the fighting target and landing regular hits (provided you aren't capable of using TR on the target AND are landing regulars). The incentive in this document for not going NR setup would be the evade buff, since most of our toolset has been just rearranged into separate/different nanolines. If shades found that NR was more useful than chance procs, then they may still stay NR since they have lost the healing they would have had would they have been NR0, and the 100% proc rate might not even matter to them.

    Stun procs I couldn't care less about. As it is, the new "nano recharge stun" seems very situationally powerful for alot of different targets, and is much easier to cast than Stupefication was. All breeds will be able to cast their top nanos provided that the spirits do not change, without much if any swapping. The Sharp Objects buff doesn't yet put us in range of Tears of Oedipus provided that our spirits do not change. Init buffs are not for endgame.

    The quick math of it is, cutting out the useless buffs, I'm saving NCU (not casting MA/dimach buff, the inits buffs, multi wield buffs, or the SO buffs) by about 14 points, but that's because of killing what I don't think I'd find of effect anyway. My impression on this document is that shades are going to lose harder to evaders (and yes, the rebalance effort is for team pvp, but the shade I feel is left out because we're keeping our 1 second perks and haven't much to offer a team to begin with that someone else couldn't replace with stronger effects) so as a solo profession, it's all around a nerf with the exception to evades and our new nemesis nano (the nano lockout). The procs system, with planned changes to procs globally, will change alot of encounters I think, so it can be seen as a boon to the profession (and a boon to every other profession as well ;p). Until items rebalance comes around, it's really hard to say but at the moment all we can go on are these documents.

    I didn't mention the peculiar Healing or Improved Healing nanos in the document because on the summary page into today's FwM there was no mention, and for now I'm assuming they aren't going to be implemented or discussed until other things come to mind.
    Last edited by Waahash; Nov 26th, 2010 at 23:26:45.

  2. #22
    So... What's the point of nerfing the agility buffs? I don't really get it at all. Generally, this sort of treatment that has the potential to create "caterwauled" twinks has been shunned before.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
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    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    So... What's the point of nerfing the agility buffs? I don't really get it at all. Generally, this sort of treatment that has the potential to create "caterwauled" twinks has been shunned before.
    Sense was added; so it makes sense to me.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  4. #24
    WTS Lava Capsules pst
    Hellrule 220/30/70 - Your future Crat Dictator
    Secretly Clan

  5. #25
    shades need to have fast moving speed while concealed - we're shadows after all
    220/30 Lordlawrence
    200/2x Pampero
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiuchus View Post

    The Heal proc is a bit leftfield... I guess it's a change from the usual debuff/DD procs but even so, not so sure it fits.

    Stun proc removal was inevitable.

    heal proc fits in better than SHD does

    and the stun proc isnt really all that useful anyways

  7. #27
    I dont like the loss of SHD, simply because of its range, when rooted etc.

    Rest looks nice
    RK
    Roxburry 220/30/70 Cratz0r
    Roxbury 220/25/70 Shadez0r
    Bolrn 220/27/70 Mpz0r
    Arrow83 220/27/70 Solz0r

  8. #28
    personally I liked the proc changes, the ncu cost increases over all may become a bit of an issue but I shouldn't think it would be enough to prevent using essential nanos.

    Procs going to 100% is great, no more hoping on a lucky proc fire, every hit will give the effect, resulting in 400 hp every 3 seconds in fights where your hitting, combined that with means' statement that he's looking to make regulars a lot more reliable means this could be a great change.

    Combined with the second line also being 100% meaning you can both heal/drain nano as well as lower oppenents evades/initiatives.

    The low durations are made up by the fact that every normal hit that lands will reapply it

    Also sirens call isn't the nemesis nano, its just a new nano for shades.

    The nemesis nano is the shades caress, which gives you a 100% proc on the target you cast to heal you.

    If their ranged every hit you do to them for 10 seconds will heal upto 750 if their melee its upto 1500.

    Granted 10 seconds is a short time and I personally would have thought the numbers would have been reversed (as ranged users are harder to hit as a melee user than melee is) you can still look to getting nearly 6k healing during that time if you land the hits.

    It will really all come down to how the items are changed, how the evades mechanics are changed and how viable all the different supported stats are (parry + risposte could become fairly deadly as could triple wielding MA attack using sharp object throwing.)
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 27th, 2010 at 13:27:12.

  9. #29
    Is it just me, or is the new SHD less healing compared to the current one when spammed ? Assuming 40 hits a minute + fast attack.

    Having to choose between init debuff or evade close debuff is a little tough. Same with heal proc or nano drain proc (both do dd). Swapping procs on the fly will probably become common place. Having the different proc types at the same stacking level is a very nice touch from FC... means not having to cancel one to cast the other). Small round of applause for that.

    Less agility more sense is NM hate... why won't you think of the nanomage shade ?

    Sharp objects.... I only consider this worth it if SO was added to spirits are shades could use Tears when decked out in mostly CC. If not, please don't bother.

    MA... I'm liking this. Add MA to the foot spirit and I'll like it even more. A rehash of the MA template (high min damage, low crit) would put the icing on the cake. Even better if deceits get "ma combined" added to them.

    As much as I want to use Silence, it will mean easy kills against anyone with a nano based defense and/or anyone with a nano based offensive defense (read roots / drains). Perkable advies would suffer as well... stun perk would stop them using Coon or DoF (for enough time to kill them) and Silence would stop them healing.

    With respect to fights against solds / enfs, nothing in the nano docs compensates for the loss of defense from the changes to the SP perks.

    With respect to fights against targets shades can't perk... no real change since the damage proc is pretty low.

  10. #30
    heal proc (just the normal not the nemesis one) is 133 hps compared to 90 hps of SHD, if all your attacks land and such (more if you triple wield)

    I think the +400 damage isn't bad considering, many people would kill to get that + damage specially with it stacking with outside damage buffs.

    Theres still issues certainly but these changes definitely make me want to dust my shade off more.
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 27th, 2010 at 18:36:24.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_road View Post
    Is it just me, or is the new SHD less healing compared to the current one when spammed ? Assuming 40 hits a minute + fast attack.

    Having to choose between init debuff or evade close debuff is a little tough. Same with heal proc or nano drain proc (both do dd). Swapping procs on the fly will probably become common place. Having the different proc types at the same stacking level is a very nice touch from FC... means not having to cancel one to cast the other). Small round of applause for that.

    Less agility more sense is NM hate... why won't you think of the nanomage shade ?

    Sharp objects.... I only consider this worth it if SO was added to spirits are shades could use Tears when decked out in mostly CC. If not, please don't bother.

    MA... I'm liking this. Add MA to the foot spirit and I'll like it even more. A rehash of the MA template (high min damage, low crit) would put the icing on the cake. Even better if deceits get "ma combined" added to them.

    As much as I want to use Silence, it will mean easy kills against anyone with a nano based defense and/or anyone with a nano based offensive defense (read roots / drains). Perkable advies would suffer as well... stun perk would stop them using Coon or DoF (for enough time to kill them) and Silence would stop them healing.

    With respect to fights against solds / enfs, nothing in the nano docs compensates for the loss of defense from the changes to the SP perks.

    With respect to fights against targets shades can't perk... no real change since the damage proc is pretty low.
    I think pvm healing did go down a bit, but with more control (IE init debuff as soon as you start combat) I think it evens out a bit. Also heal effeciency should increase the healing rate.

    The evade debuff proc should land the second you use Sneak Attack in pvp, which means a guaranteed -200 debuff. I think that is far better than hoping you can land the debuff on profs that may dodge the majority of your attacks.

    I don't see how any non-evader can have a chance against a shade with the current changes. Solds and enfs both have reduced survival, will be slower than the shade, and a shade gained substantial healing and a huge evade boost for pvp.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    I think pvm healing did go down a bit, but with more control (IE init debuff as soon as you start combat) I think it evens out a bit. Also heal effeciency should increase the healing rate.

    The evade debuff proc should land the second you use Sneak Attack in pvp, which means a guaranteed -200 debuff. I think that is far better than hoping you can land the debuff on profs that may dodge the majority of your attacks.

    I don't see how any non-evader can have a chance against a shade with the current changes. Solds and enfs both have reduced survival, will be slower than the shade, and a shade gained substantial healing and a huge evade boost for pvp.


    I see a perfect way for a soldier/enf to deal with a shade in pvp its "A/S/D/W + space " something around the lines "wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwOwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwOwwwwwwwwwwww wO"
    "Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit, because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure. "

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    personally I liked the proc changes, the ncu cost increases over all may become a bit of an issue but I shouldn't think it would be enough to prevent using essential nanos.
    Of course not ;p I wouldn't go fight someone unbuffed, but if we have to live with it, do we have to like it? The concealment buff's NCU useage, IMO, is ridiculously high for what it does compared to the Agent one (which is only slightly better) and we're still not going to have as much as them. NCU useage shouldn't have gone up as much as it has, and with the agility/sense line going into it's own separate line, the inits buff moving into its own line, etc etc, it's going to wreck a lower level shade's NCU even harder as its more essential then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Procs going to 100% is great, no more hoping on a lucky proc fire, every hit will give the effect, resulting in 400 hp every 3 seconds in fights where your hitting, combined that with means' statement that he's looking to make regulars a lot more reliable means this could be a great change.
    Against the fights were we can already perk someone, it's actually more powerful and I don't disagree on that subject (though I think that it would become too powerful in some cases). It hurts us in fights versus evaders however, because you can't land the regulars - and that's what I was looking forward to in the nano document, more tools to overcome an evader over time (provided we survive ofc). If regulars land more often, then evaders have been nerfed somewhat and perks are just icing on the cake, shades would be top **** at that point and it's approaching the realm of OP. I guess we will have to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Combined with the second line also being 100% meaning you can both heal/drain nano as well as lower oppenents evades/initiatives.

    The low durations are made up by the fact that every normal hit that lands will reapply it
    Again, healing is tied to the enemies evades and landing Nanite Depravation now doesn't keep a fixer from running around crazily, doesn't mean you'll land regulars on an MA more, and doesn't mean a crat isn't going to nuke your face off while you stand there trying to proc your heals - it's really going to come down to what you said about regulars being more reliable.

    It also makes us more of an alpha profession if people are going to land regulars - you're going to kill the **** out of it before it can retaliate and do some harm to you. I'm okay with that, but for people like Rox who duel more often it might not sit well.

    However I didn't think about your second point there so thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Also sirens call isn't the nemesis nano, its just a new nano for shades.

    The nemesis nano is the shades caress, which gives you a 100% proc on the target you cast to heal you.

    If their ranged every hit you do to them for 10 seconds will heal upto 750 if their melee its upto 1500.

    Granted 10 seconds is a short time and I personally would have thought the numbers would have been reversed (as ranged users are harder to hit as a melee user than melee is) you can still look to getting nearly 6k healing during that time if you land the hits.
    On the nano summary change page, there was 0 mention of this healing nano proc that was in the documents. I honestly don't think the document would contain that if they didn't plan on using it, but for now the silence on that entire (also, massively useful) nanoline is what is prompting me to assume it's not going to be used for now or is currently being reworked number-wise.

    As for the nano recharge nano, that I am affectionately already calling the "**** you" nano, it would likely make doc fights so stupidly easy that I'm not sure I would like it. As for other fights, I'm already anticipating how I would time things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    It will really all come down to how the items are changed, how the evades mechanics are changed and how viable all the different supported stats are (parry + risposte could become fairly deadly as could triple wielding MA attack using sharp object throwing.)
    Too right.

  14. #34

    It is fully bad idea

    I tried to explain that how bad is losing shd but can not get much support.
    1)I can heal up with shd if i am fighting with fixer or some high evade dude .But now i will miss and cannot heal up.
    2)Shd is kind a hot which helpes alot for me to recover faster .But now i need to hit something to heal up .not to mention sometimes i do not wana hit bcs of high dmage shiled and stuff like that.
    3)WE did not get any root problem help so far so rooted and bye bye era is coming.crappy heal dleta .Can not hit to heal up.

  15. #35
    First, how the piss did I miss this thread? I've been hawking the forums here.

    Secondly, I miss SHD already for the evaders fights. The suggested proc changes makes us even worse of a menace versus anything that isn't an evader and doesn't yet reach the realm of OP so far (IMO). Before these nano changes, we could have the APF proc, nanodrain proc, and our SHD. Now we have to choose between the SHD or nanodraining (the SP perks are being reduced in duration so half of their current nanodraining will take effect, though you can refresh them fairly quick).

    I will concede this though. The nanodrain proc, got HUGELY boosted (almost doubled), so a SA or a random hit here or there is going to screw over a fixer from rooting sooner or later, and an MA from healing (combined with no more SA + AS, they choose which one they want) after a while.
    Last edited by Waahash; Nov 27th, 2010 at 21:22:36.

  16. #36
    I would point out fixers aint gonna be chain rooting anyone, 20 second cooldowns on them combined with fairly easy removal in the current view means that its not going be such a pain as it was.

    That said it will probably be the best method of dealing with shades, as once they get into attack range theres going to be a lot of clamouring to get our, specially if regulars are more reliable and shades start triple wielding (8 hits in 10 seconds will be nasty, specially with the two heal procs)

    As for the nemesis nano not being in the summary, well its just a summary, if it was going to comment on every nano and every change it wouldn't be a summary.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by iolanda View Post
    I see a perfect way for a soldier/enf to deal with a shade in pvp its "A/S/D/W + space " something around the lines "wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwOwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwOwwwwwwwwwwww wO"
    Because those post-balancing enfo and soldier CC tools and massive runspeed make it so easy to kite a shade.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    As for the nemesis nano not being in the summary, well its just a summary, if it was going to comment on every nano and every change it wouldn't be a summary.
    Fairly massive change to be left out, wouldn't you agree?

  19. #39
    maybe, but theres been bigger changes in other documents that were missed out.

    And tbh changing your anti keeper nano into an anti-anyone nano isn't so big.

    I don't recall them ever commenting on the removal of the fixer blindside nemesis nano to replace it with an already existing one.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    heal proc (just the normal not the nemesis one) is 133 hps compared to 90 hps of SHD, if all your attacks land and such (more if you triple wield)
    SHD is 900hp/4.57s if spammed... 197 hp/s. Even at 5s recharge with lag, thats 180 hp/s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Also heal effeciency should increase the healing rate.
    does it ? pretty sure the existing LE health drain proc is always the same heal amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    I don't see how any non-evader can have a chance against a shade with the current changes. Solds and enfs both have reduced survival, will be slower than the shade, and a shade gained substantial healing and a huge evade boost for pvp.
    i agree with the first sentence.

    the change to SHD is a drop in healing even before factoring in the impact of damage/reflect shields.

    the increase in evades is nice. does this mean that the typo in the Acrobat perk docs is not a typo ? however, the duration nerf to the SP debuffs means the net change is still a long way negative.

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