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Thread: Shade nano changes discussion

  1. #1

    Shade nano changes discussion

    Please look into the attached document and comment


    • Stun procs removed
    • SHD merged into damage proc
    • Procs have 100% chance of landing -> more damage/healing/nanodrains from procs
    • Can run two different procs at the same time (damage/heal or nanodrain + inits or evade debuff)
    • Changed nemesis nano: basically it gives you a 10 second long offensive proc against the one you casted it on. 1500 heal/hit it target is mellee, 750 if target is ranged <- I do not like this, shades are killers, not healers
    • Agi bufs give half agi that they give now, but the second half is not gone, it is converted to sense
    • Modifiers from buffs been rearranged to proper nanolines (AAO moved to AR buffs, AAD to evade buffs, etc).
    • New nano: Siren's Whisper, puts target into 6 second nano recharge. Hello doctors
    • New SO buff

    Kintaii Edit: Balance Discussion Thread located here
    Last edited by Graftmage; Nov 26th, 2010 at 16:32:52.
    220 Shade | 220 NT | 220 Crat | 220 Fixer | 220 Agent | 165 Adv

  2. #2
    I like the new icons

    Looks alright.. I like the added defence and the -evades proc
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
    Proud Board Member of Dark Front Cookies >> Bacon, remember that!

  3. #3
    From an "outside" point of view... Inits buff is target ... intended ?
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  4. #4
    First glance it looks pretty good. Reading these spreadsheets with light pink/grey background and white text on a low res monitor though...

    So did I get this right - Sneaking health drain goes in favour of proc heals?

    And also, are all the procs guaranteed on hit? Or do I read the "AddOffProc Depravation of Celertity 100%" (for example) wrong?

    What can I say, I really struggle reading these. Someone get us a Shade Nano Doc for dummies recap!

    EDIT: Kintaii to the rescue
    Last edited by brbcoffee; Nov 26th, 2010 at 17:15:44.
    Vixi - Opifex Shade - 220 / 30 / 70 e
    Teborix - Solitus Soldier - 150 / 20 / 42 e
    Sylex - Opifex Fixer - 150 / 19 / 40 e

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Not sure how this turns out with good end game NCUs or how that compares to other professions at endgame (getting there...), but quick look through adding up, I get shade self buffs to close in on 700 NCU. Just seems a bit much to me.
    Vixi - Opifex Shade - 220 / 30 / 70 e
    Teborix - Solitus Soldier - 150 / 20 / 42 e
    Sylex - Opifex Fixer - 150 / 19 / 40 e

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by brbcoffee View Post
    So did I get this right - Sneaking health drain goes in favour of proc heals?

    Quote Originally Posted by brbcoffee View Post
    And also, are all the procs guaranteed on hit?
    220 Shade | 220 NT | 220 Crat | 220 Fixer | 220 Agent | 165 Adv

  8. #8
    Sneak losing it's agi buff is quite the nerf to lowbie TL2/3 shades trying to twink or keep gear out of OE Mugger helps but that's harder to self cast. I wonder if a little scaling adjustment could help there.

    Just to check I'm reading this right: the MA buff line now also includes the Dimach line, rather than simply being switched from one to the other?

    Forcing Nanorecharge with Siren's Whisper is evil

    The Heal proc is a bit leftfield... I guess it's a change from the usual debuff/DD procs but even so, not so sure it fits.

    Stun proc removal was inevitable.

    The new icons and new names, whilst a bit cheesy, are generally a nice touch.

    (If I continue playing I'm looking at taking my shade endgame so I'm interested in these changes.)

    Ophiuchus : 220/30/80 HAHA etc
    :: 220/30/80 Melee 4lyfe
    Khurkh :: 220/30/80 healtankpew
    : 210/26/60 nanostab
    Spidershiva :: 165/23/42 kite? eh?
    : 150/20/42 tankthink
    The Union

  9. #9
    Hrm, looks like shades get an assload of extra healing :P switching procs on the fly looks handy too

  10. #10
    only thing seems odd is that SHD doesnt heal if you are rooted/blinded and NT spams nukes at you in safe distance.
    i dont know what nemesis nano thinks about that.

    at first glance i like the changes.
    Last edited by Otinsainpas; Nov 26th, 2010 at 16:54:00.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gridpain View Post
    From an "outside" point of view... Inits buff is target ... intended ?
    Probably, would fill in the void after they made offensive steamroller ranged init only.
    Vixi - Opifex Shade - 220 / 30 / 70 e
    Teborix - Solitus Soldier - 150 / 20 / 42 e
    Sylex - Opifex Fixer - 150 / 19 / 40 e

  12. #12
    For Siren's Whisper is the 90s cooldown on land or cast? 25% NR check is nice, but sadly won't be able to land this in NR2 Sacrifice I guess!
    Manicmouse AR SMGs - 220/30 Clan Solitus Soldier - General of New Order
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  13. #13
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Gonna quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciekafsky View Post
    And where is all this damage that is required to OD support professions hidden?
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  14. #14
    Post on Kintaii's thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veebliez View Post
    Most of these changes look to be incredible boosts to the viability of Shades. Couple comments here:

    - The new "silence" type nano is great in concept, but I worry that a 6 second duration will be very overpowering. I've not read other profession nano documents in great detail yet, so possible problems from this nano might be avoided already. The idea is great, but please tread cautiously and be conservative in numbers when balancing this nano.

    - Glad to see the removal of stun procs. Allows all other procs to become much more reliable, and much easier to balance. The damage / health + nano hit procs can become converted to a flat rate amount of damage per unit time. Also, the inits can be more easily balanced to be fair versus various professions. Vindication is sweet.

    - Would have preferred sharp objects being tacked onto other buffs, as Shades don't have a ton of extra NCU available after self buffing without exceptional CL twinking. However, the inclusion of these buffs won't be a nerf for Shades, since we can mostly perform fine without sharp objects items. The NCU requirements will be a necessary sacrifice for any Shades looking to do that much more damage.

    - Not super worried about the trade in agility for sense. In fact, this will help a lot of lowbie leveling Shades get spirits and armor like predator on. The ability to grant low level buffs doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective, but it will be nice for Shades to be able to support low level friends in a fashion other than killing mobs.

    - The initiative buff sounds odd in practice and from a roleplay. This one might be rough on NCU requirements as well, but I won't complain about its use towards helping teammates and low level friends. As a self buff, it sounds unnecessary considering a viral compiler solves most of our casting speed needs. Melee initiative isn't that painful for us to take advantage of right now, either.

    - Shades are the one and only profession I believe should have level locks on all of their nanos. The removal of these pre-150 might be a bit much. Low level Shades have the potential of becoming quite powerful if given a few concessions. This would be one of them. We'll see how this pans out with perk changes.

    - I find no problems with the last two points.


    Bottom line: Overall great changes

    Two primary concerns: NCU limits - some Shades might be hard pressed to fully buff before running out of NCU

    The new "silence" nano. It might be overpowered.
    Raise your hand \o if you want to pay lots of attention to Veebz!

  15. #15
    How much AAO or whatever does the nemesis nano give when you cast it, I am not seeing it in the document.

    And holy ****! 707 ncu required to fully buff (minus the SO, parry and multi wield buffs and init buffs)

    FTS NCU requirements needs to be lowered by about 210 points.

    Currently all my buffs take about 400 ncu and I have 800 ncu. I can get a bit more (about 100) if I pop in one more xan memory NCU. But seriously, I will only have 200 (if I get another xan memory ncu) free ncu for outside buffs, that is simply not enough and I dont feel like finding a fixer every time I want to play. Not to mention I haven't included other buffs that we might use.
    Last edited by MachSchau; Nov 26th, 2010 at 18:38:12.

  16. #16
    Silence Nano makes shades PvP gods.

  17. #17
    Keep in mind; none of these numbers are concrete, they can change drastically over the course of the re-balancing.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

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    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  18. #18
    Im curently in mind that we got screwed over badly .
    "Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit, because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure. "

  19. #19
    Looks fine. If speed from concealment is increased then silence gives ample time to destroy most opponents. About 30 seconds dealing with that nano drain proc will also wipe most players nanopool, especially if they have DTN.

    6 seconds where a soldier can't AMS, trader can't drain, doc can't heal, NT can't's pure gold. I have an alternative for silence I will propose seperately based on another games version which might be more balanced.

    Also, to hell with stun procs. They don't work on bosses and a 100% init debuff like that is a million times better. Random stun effects are annoying and 100% stun chance would be too hard to balance.

  20. #20

    Document Impressions?

    Looking over the documents and trying to keep in mind all proposed changes for the rebalance, it looks like shades didn't get much in terms of new, but lost some decent things that were otherwise great to have. To summarize what I'm about to post: alot of nanos have increased NCU useage, which is itself a nerf, and with a few nanos being split into new lines, using 2 nanos where it was once 1 makes the NCU usage jump alot. And most of this post will take an endgame POV and as such I'll only refer the top nanos (the balancing FC has stated is being most focused on if I do remember correctly). Please do not hesitate to correct me where I may be wrong, may have misinterpreted the document, or may have made an error otherwise. I also do not assume things cannot be changed, and is such the purpose of this post, and alot of the assumptions I make, or things I compare to, come from things that may have not been changed yet (if ever).

    Faster than Your Shadow looks like it has been changed to a team runspeed buff, giving the same amount of runspeed to the team as it would have before, except it gives the shade 450 more runspeed than previous while using less NCU on each individual person than before, while the shade's NCU useage increases by 31 points. In the rebalance, having more speed should be useful thing to have unlike today where extra is wasted. Having an extra 450 runspeed for 31 NCU cost is reasonable, but we lose 350 points of runspeed in our evade buff later on. Essentially, 100 runspeed for 31 NCU - removed from the amount of NCU that the evade buff is using extra. This is a problem for me, maybe not for anyone else, but getting an effective 100 runspeed for 31 NCU is a bit out of proportion - your teammates are getting 250 for 25. The duration has been increased thankfully <3

    Shadow in the Night became considerably stronger. From 500 concealment to 800 means that advies will have to work more to pull a shade out of sneak if they find it a viable enough reason to do so. The duration has been increased to be in line with our other buffs, and thankfully so. However the NCU useage, from 40 to 80, is concerning. An agent's Ruse4 gives the same amount of concealment as well as a 30 AAD buff for 59 NCU. We're paying 40 NCU for 300 more concealment over our buffs as of current, which isn't even as in line as an agent's Ruse2 (400 conceal for 30 NCU).

    The sharp objects buffs, while welcome to people trying to use the Pande drops, still keeps us out of using Tears of Oedipus. The NCU useage (38 for the higher tier buff) as well as the actual buff amount will keep me from using it unless the Pande drops have lower reqs or our spirits buff SO as well. This is not on an IP trim, this is on max IP (I did this a few weeks ago and I would have needed 480ish more SO to use a Tear at max IP with full CC etc etc).

    Our evade buff, currently name Improved Prowler has been renamed to Coiled Serpent. It is an all around improvement that falls in line with more defensively geared/played shades by giving us an enormous boost to evades. It cut out our runspeed buff by tacking it onto FTYS at a large NCU cost, and it cuts out 50 agility (roughly 6-7 piercing/AR). The agility buff has been moved to a separate line, which also requires more NCU.

    The iProwler nano has been renamed to Prowler will take 60 NCU to have a 60 point agi/sense buff that used to be incorporated into our evade buff. The killer is that in pvp, you're going to cast this nano because the loss of AR would be about 7-8 points, on top of the 6 you lose from the agility cutback. 13 AR is small, but it's not like we needed to lose any more of it to begin with.

    Backstabber's NCU cost went down thankfully in light of all the NCU costs going up on the rest of the nanos, you gain 10 more sneak attack. You gain 110 more fast attack, meaning you can trim the IP out of fast attack even more (according to many, and coinciding with testing done, maxing fast attack gives no benefit over trimming it, so you'll save IP). The nano loses the 15 AAD modifier that it traditionally had.

    The init buffs do not look like they are for endgame, so I cannot say that I even care that they exist. The nano reqs on them do suggest TL5 shades, and so the NCU useage and the buff are negligible to endgame shades (that are already swinging 1/1 in full def). Maybe we'll get asked for them by TL5ers.

    Duplex Wall is now the top multi wield buff we have, replacing Triple Wall. At endgame it looks to be useless until parry/riposte are changed. The nano requirements are not at endgame shade levels so until parry/riposte get changed, there is no purpose in casting this nano for endgame. For whatever reason, the NCU useage did go up yet again.

    Triple Wall (soon to be called Scream of the Wraith) was moved to the MA buffing line, not a line I personally use. It gives 110 more MA over Kiss of the Vampire in its current iteration (kiss of the vampire is getting boosted as well). The dimach buff is increased in 10 points total over the current maximum buff. It uses 5 more points of NCU.

    Laceration of Tchu (formerly Improved Puncture of the Tarasque) uses 2 less NCU, has no add damage modifiers, comes with 30 more piercing skill (which is offset by the buffs being taken off of Triple Wall/Scream) and takes away multi melee which at endgame is more than accessible so I'm sure nobody misses those MM buffs ;p

    continued in next post

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