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Thread: [Discussion] Creation Attack Rating Ideas

  1. #1

    [Discussion] Creation Attack Rating Ideas

    There have been a few good ideas floating around, regarding how Creation Weapon attack ratings might be improved. From what FC have announced so far, it seems likely that there will be some emphasis on creations - so thinking of ideas for improving the effectiveness of creations as weapons might be a good idea.

    Here's some of the ideas that I've seen floating around. Have we got any more?

    1) 100% Weapon-skill + 20% Nanoskill (e.g. 100% 2HB + 20% TS)

    This idea includes the requirement for strong investment and tweaking to get a decent weapon skill level. Would check against the relevant evade. It allows usage of specials from group weapon perk lines. It also lends itself to more different armour choices.

    You can look at future development in two ways though:

    a) General buffs on items/equip may be developed more for weapon skills

    b) MP specific buffs are more likely to be on nanoskills.

    If we're lobbying as a profession for more skills-budget - then we're more likely to get nanoskills. But historically, weapon-skill buffs seem to have been a bit more common on general items.

    2) Present Attack Skills - but check against Nano Resist (without AAD)

    This idea sets the present 80%TS + 20% Weapon-skill against Nano Resist instead of against one of the evades. The benefits here, are:

    a) that Nano Resist values should always be set around a value that allows us to land nanoskill based attacks - since the rest of our tool-set is built around this.

    b) that MP specific buffs are more likely to be on nanoskills

    This gives some protection against the idea that weapon AR tends to inflate more than nanoskills. AR tends to be tied to AAD/Evades increases. Nano AR tends to be tied to NR icnreases.

    3) 51% Weaponskill + 69% TS

    This idea gives enough weapon-skill to allow usage of perk specials - but allows emphasis on Nanoskills. Counter-part to number 1.

    a) Allows usage of group weapon perk specials

    b) Leans more toward nanoskills allowing MPs to twink more toward core casting skills

    Down-sides here may be, that if the historical emphasis on inflating weapon-skills continues, then MPs may be more susceptible to AR slippage

    4) Swap all TS checks with MC check.

    Helps, since we generally have higher MC than TS - and also fits with the idea of the creations being material creations

    5) Attack skills 100% nanoskill (MC, or 50/50 MC/TS) + 25% weapon skill + AAO

    Suggested due to the difficulties that may be encountered with getting suitable item buffs from armours etc, if Creation Weapons were to become the weapons of choice for the MP.

    6) Attack Skills 100% MC Vs Nano Resist (set in percentage to give appropriate AR).

    This was in conjunction with other ideas suggested in Waylayer's post - and may not stand entirely well on its own as a result.


    Taking an example skill balance of 2000 TS and 1600 Weapon-skill, these differing ideas give attack ratings of:

    80%/20% Vs NR.... AR = 1920
    100%/20% Vs Evade... AR = 2000
    60%/60% Vs Evade... AR = 2160
    100% TS/25% WS = 2400 AR

    Clearly, there's not a huge difference between the different ideas in terms of AR - but the difference between smallest and largest is significant (240 AR = ~10%+).

    The most directly effective is probably the idea of changing to an NR Def Check - though this also has the lowest overall AR, so using general weapon perks will tend to be a weakness.

    A lot also depends upon how you believe skills budgets will inflate in future.

    Any other ideas that have been floated that I've missed?

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Nov 16th, 2010 at 22:12:46.

  2. #2
    Swap all TS checks with MC check. It fits "realistically" (our creations are temp. material constructs, right?) and we (usually) have MC skill as the highest of them all, so this is also self-explanatory.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  3. #3
    What happens when we are forced into creation itemdom is that the only armor we can realistically where is CS. Everything else suddenly becomes useless (CSS, CC, Ofab). So from that PoV, I recommend 100% TS + 20% whatever the weapon happens to be (which will still be major suckage to max IP in an otherwise worthless line.

    The second problem is weapon specials will have no support when trying to have a high nanoskills AR (i.e. Combined Scouts is the only choice, Combined Officers sucks major balls, even if DtN becomes a reality because 210 evades will help you a ****load more than 1400 nanopool every time because of capping mechanics), so if we want our weapon to be anything more than Q /afk we need a necessary AR boost to make up for the complete lack of special support on our armour (we'll be lucky to cap flingshot recycle). Which is why even 120% sounds trifling - unless of course specials also check against NR with creations.

    So combine 1 with 2 and you get my preferred option provided weapon specials also check NR, if we're forced to use creation items (bye bye diversity, hello WoWification).

    eta: Although having raging enfs as the equivalent of fixers vs us isnt something I'd look forward to.
    Last edited by Chrys; Nov 11th, 2010 at 15:28:17.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  4. #4
    Lets merge 1,2 and 4: 100% MC + 20% Weapon vs NR. It will make hits a bit more reliable. Ofc rage enfs and NR peroed toons will be nemesis for us, but they are already, not? And it will make us win against current evaders prof.

    The big problem about NR check is PvM. Some of those pvm things have high NR. Nothing thats a NT mate cant solve.

    And we can lose some diversity as well. I dunno if we will really lose it cause atm we have only 3 setups: Zset/Red staff, Tigress/CotX and 1hb/Creations/Xan of Abbandonment. And maybe it doesnt kill all of those weird weap dder pvm setups.

    P.s.: Most of our diversity is well hide in HUDs choices.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    And we can lose some diversity as well. I dunno if we will really lose it cause atm we have only 3 setups: Zset/Red staff, Tigress/CotX and 1hb/Creations/Xan of Abbandonment. And maybe it doesnt kill all of those weird weap dder pvm setups.
    Yeah but what I'm saying is making creation weapons viables wipes out not just weapon choice but armor choice completely as a "choice". So basically it's CS all the way. Not that that's terrible, some profs all wear CC or CSS, but still, it's a rung down from the days when Ofab/CSS/CS gave you interesting dilemmas. Mixed AR weapons were never popular pre-SL times (unless they had ridiculous specials like the Oneida) and there was a reason for it.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  6. #6
    Updated OP to here.

    X

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Is there something more about creation AR that I should be capturing from that pistol, that isn't already captured in the OP vios?

    X

  9. #9
    Actually, I was thinking of making a similar post. AMEP sets the precedent for a pet class to get a weapon that checks 125% against 100% (and it's got a special, starts 1/1 and does good damage to boot).

    That in mind, I'd more concretely propose the following, which is a refinement of my suggestion in a different thread:

    Creation bow, checks 51% Bow 74% MC against 100% dodge, .5/.5 (so easy to go full def and stay 1/1), bow special attack, DOT proc similar to Asp of Titaniush (basically for PvM). Then add in high damage creation special arrows of some sort.

    Basically, it's a weapon designed to land procs, creation special arrows and Ranger perks against low dodge opponents PvP, while offering reasonable PvM DD.

  10. #10
    Justin, do you think that idea is covered by options 3 and 4? Or would you like me to add the specific amounts you suggest as a separate line-item?

    X

  11. #11
    Not the amounts necessarily, but the idea of 51% weapon skill the rest nanoskill I think is worth looking at, as it unlocks weapon line perk actions but also (as long as the total attack is far enough over the defense check) let us get a high enough AR through our core (nanoskill) toolset to actually land them some of the time. So basically, rather than 60% 60%, 51% x%.

  12. #12
    The problem with the 50% rule is that anything can disable you, while a 100%+25% is a boost that only one side can disable. Only traders have -weapon skills and there has been always boost to them in terms of items or nanos while nanoskills never had that much love and there are much more things that disable nanoskills (mobs, perks, classes)

  13. #13
    vios, I've included 100% WS and 20% Nanoskill already... do you feel that has covered it? Or did you specifically want the 100%/25% included too?

    X

  14. #14
    Man I'd forgotten about AMEP, and engies have light blue pistol AND EP AND TS buffs AND 90% checks AND 2 attack pets. We otoh, are Fine™ rotting at 80+20% (at best) or dark blue ranged and no ranged buffs at worst
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    vios, I've included 100% WS and 20% Nanoskill already... do you feel that has covered it? Or did you specifically want the 100%/25% included too?

    X
    I was just commenting Justinsane idea, although I like it and it gives us better overall AR it has some vulnerabilities that put them almost in the same line of nanoskills based weapons. You can't feel more naked that being NSDed by a mob while wearing a shield of ZSET. It is like that king's tale and the garments invisible to dumbs.

  16. #16
    Here's an idea: If we go ahead and go with whatever idea floats the community boat, but instead of just having it check NR, we have the attack check NR like how perks are planning on checking NR: Without the AAD behind it to back it up.

    That solves a lot of problems with hitting things with regular hits in pvp right there, still plays to our strengths in nanoskills, especially if we go with a 100% TS or MC check (IIRC X is correct in his assumption that MC is going to wind up maxing higher than TS, especially with Trance) gives us a shot of having procs go off of various stripes, etc.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    Here's an idea: If we go ahead and go with whatever idea floats the community boat, but instead of just having it check NR, we have the attack check NR like how perks are planning on checking NR: Without the AAD behind it to back it up.
    But everything that will check NR in future will check w/o AAD, not?
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  18. #18
    Perk wise, yes, but I don't know if that works for weapons or not. I should go ask, shouldn't I? I'll see if I can get an answer on that.

  19. #19
    LoL Yeah yeah, U should >.< And ask too when we will get our doc =**
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #20

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