Will FC change any pvp level ranges?

[Gridpain]

As long as the fix doesn't guarantee activity, which it can't, then no, not even if the alternative is no NW.

That's completly stupid...

Like if you said painkillers were completly unusefull because they wont cure the sick...

[Obtena]

People are suggesting a fix that won't guarantee to address the problem they have identified. THAT'S stupid.

[Wrangeline]

People are suggesting a fix that won't guarantee to address the problem they have identified. THAT'S stupid.

Only if the odds of "failing completely" is very high and that the result of that failure is a situation that is way worse than the situation we currently have.

So I got to ask, what is so much worse than "no NW", that you are 100% unwilling to risk something that you aren't 100% sure will be a huge success? To me, "no NW" is pretty much the worst situation there is apart from AO being shut down forever. So what in your mind is worse than no NW?

Also, if we follow your logic here then FC should never patch AO again for any reason what so ever because there's never any guarantee that things will be better than they were before. No matter what FC is patching.

I'd just like to point out that I have never been as speechless in my life as I was the 3 minutes after I read your last 2 posts. My brain couldn't even handle the lack of reason behind them. I'm asking you more leading questions in this post out of extreme curiosity. I just need to know what the logic is behind your last 2 posts. Can you please provide some detailed insight into your reasoning here?

O.O

[Obtena]

So I got to ask, what is so much worse than "no NW", that you are 100% unwilling to risk something that you aren't 100% sure will be a huge success? To me, "no NW" is pretty much the worst situation there is apart from AO being shut down forever. So what in your mind is worse than no NW?

The part that is worse is it's effect on people that have embraced this ladder leveling strategy. Any change, effective or not, will be done at their expense.

[Soosis]

The part that is worse is it's effect on people that have embraced this ladder leveling strategy. Any change, effective or not, will be done at their expense.

fairly sure thats less than the other side tho. but ofc, you do it, so you defend it to the end.

People are suggesting a fix that won't guarantee to address the problem they have identified. THAT'S stupid.

yeah. I mean, cmon. People with cancer who try kemo and it aint guaranteed? pfft, how stupid is That!?


On a side note, Ive seen these TL7s in TL5 wars and I have a 170 solja and leveled to that fully knowing the lvl problem. I really never saw them THAT big of a problem, but I still understand where many are coming from. Logically its a bit odd that it can escalate like it does now.

Making something less annoying and more fun, even if its not GUARANTEED to be a 100% success, is still better than nothing (except for obtena who just hunts for easy greenies apparently).

[Obtena]

fairly sure thats less than the other side tho. but ofc, you do it, so you defend it to the end.

The part you ignore is that they don't deserve to be punished because the majority making poor choice of twink level. In contrast, it's easy to see that those that did ignore the level laddering rules deserve everything that's thrown at them.

[Wrangeline]

The part you ignore is that they don't deserve to be punished because the majority making poor choice of twink level. In contrast, it's easy to see that those that did ignore the level laddering rules deserve everything that's thrown at them.

No one's being punished. Things change in AO all the time and there's always someone standing to lose or gain something every time. What matters is what is healthy for the game in the long term.

As for people supposedly ignoring leveling rules and "deserving whatever they get", can you please stop that condescending crap for once? It doesn't even make any sense.

People used to make 174 twinks. Then people made 219 twink killers. Then people made 170-172 twinks and people made 217 twink killers. Then people made twinks below 170 and we got 214 twink killers. Then 210 and 207 twink killers and so on. What we got are twink killers of ALL level ranges. There are no obviously great level range to be any more for avoiding twink killers. The only thing that matters now is what power-difference is reasonable between a twink and a twink-killer. Given the demonstrably crappy tl5 NW we got now, that difference is not exactly promoting NW-wars at mid levels. And this is a problem. The power-difference isn't the only root of this problem but it is a big factor.

The ones that have tl7 twink killers are typically the ones that have tl5 twinks as well. If you think the right to (theoretically) be able to ruin all tl5 NW with twink killers is MORE important than NW running at all, then I will just give up on debating this with you all together. What do you think is a bigger "punishment" for a PvP'er that happens to have a tl7 twink killer; Not being able to kill green and gray players any more or not being able to do any NW in general because it's not active? Having some NW going on is better than no NW. So if you really cared SO much about those that have tl7 twinks then you would try and make NW run MORE, rather than making sure it stays dead.

Also, if you think it's ok to say that people with tl5 twinks deserves whatever they get thrown at them, then I can say that people with 207 or 214 twink killers deserve to get "punished" because they should have known that something would have to change if they ruined NW completely by being so incredibly lame and egotistical. But I wont say that. Because I'm not a douche.

[Obtena]

So making a 207 twink irrelevant through laddering changes wouldn't be a form of punishment for someone simply following the guidelines? Please elaborate because I would beg to differ. FC has never implemented a change in NW that made a twink unable to respond to the change; people could always level up or stay the same level with their twinks to respond. Changing the guideline to remove TL7 presence at TL5 NW does not allow a 207 twink to respond to the change. They become instantly obsolete.

What is healthy for the game then? I don't think removing significant strategies from NW is healthy for the game. I don't think FC hardcoding mechanics rendering TL7 twinks useless is healthy for the game. All to accommodate people that don't want to follow the single guideline that FC put in place .... to help everyone avoid situations EXACTLY like this one.

Those 207, 214 twinks are not the cause for ruining TL5 NW (yeah, crazy I know right? Follow me here). Those 165+ TL5 twinks are the catalyst for TL7 twinks existing. Ironically, players showed restraint before the change by rolling up to 149 so they couldn't be ganked by TL7's, so why have they decided that all the sudden, they can ignore that Tl7 now? Whatever it is, it's an excuse and it's always a bad one.

Honestly, it's the same arguments already made somewhere in page 1-12. Whatever your position, it's unreasonable to make a change that spits in the face of people that have abided by this guideline to appease a group that simply don't want to acknowledge the mechanics of the game dictate how the game works.

[Armus]

149 twinks were made obsolete by the second range adjustment, 74 bs twinks by the bs range change and the same thing for 174's. The reflect dmg nerf rendered twinked engi/adv and enfs obsolete and soldier max reflect twinks will be made obsolete as well in the revalancing.

Tons of items, nanos, classes and toons of different ranges have had to accept game changing adjustments before and will again and the changes were made for the better of the game as opposed the interests of groups. Those groups were often considerably larger than the twink killer group you somehow think should be excempt from change.

We've tried the current system for a few years now and the result is evident for all and it's nearly dead tl5 nw. Time for change now before the more ppl quit because if inactivity.

[Obtena]

Yes, but all those examples could be leveled to the next appropriate PVP point ... you can't de-level a 207 or 214. Re-balancing game changes don't affect level.

[Venachar]

Let's chill out, people, and fight over towers instead of each other. I've read through and I appreciate your opinions are to each other what oil is to water, but nevertheless I expect you to conduct yourselves professionally. It's the Balance forum - we're improving the future of the game. So let's find improvements for the game and stop finding problems with each other.

Best Regards,

[RedWatr]

Yes, but all those examples could be leveled to the next appropriate PVP point ... you can't de-level a 207 or 214. Re-balancing game changes don't affect level.

I would imagine they would just level them up. most of the better twink killers alr have endgame gear and ai levels, and also research, it's not a stretch for them to level to the next stop...220.

I honestly cannot imagine a fair fix to this, we're all probably just wasting our time arguing over it.

[Pomidor]

There is no possibility to fix stuff in NW now due to changes made with expansions.

Some of you may remember pre-SL times, on arenas and in NW, where you could fight (only if teamed ealier with this lvl!) 1 vs 200. That time players could fight normally 150 vs 200. I remember very well there was few twinks, very skilled players who were able to compete with those 200 (not top geared, but oh well) and there was plenty of duels I had, where I was able to fight lvl 15 vs lvl 45 and win (arena duels). SL supplied chars with PERKS that open on certain lvl, and this change made everything wrong - Its not about LVLS u chose, but tool you get.

Perfect example flows from overall PVP situation right now: You don't see lvl 60 BS running or 100, yet its much cheaper, faster (to build a toon) and has much activities to make it live, but there is none ppl to figh. Why? Because good perks (I win buttons) open from 130-150 and in some cases, at 170. If, before SL, there were big diversity in professions on mid/low lvl, PERKS killed most choise. I remember Doc/Sold/Enf/Agent/Fixer/MP/Crat/ NT were on paar (if well played, well twinked) in ARENA times (lvl 15 to 80) but just after SL relase, new weapons and perks made many totally useless.

So, like I said, there is no FIX for that. Two options come to my mind, but both are impossible to make:

1st) Moving some perks at higher lvl range (like DoF or uber DD perks to lvl 210+)
[This would cause some twink killers less deadly]
2nd) Tighten PVP lvl range above lvl 100 to 15% (which is very bad move in todays population)
[This would remove twinkkillers... and build new ones, lower lvl, but less accurate]

[Notcrattey]

yeah. I mean, cmon. People with cancer who try kemo and it aint guaranteed? pfft, how stupid is That!?

Except this isn't a life threating complication that kills thousands every year; be a bit more careful with your comparisons.

[Gridpain]

Yes, but all those examples could be leveled to the next appropriate PVP point ... you can't de-level a 207 or 214. Re-balancing game changes don't affect level.

You couldn't delevel 149 or 74 either ....

so ... with your advanced math degree, I think you can conclude that 207 can just find a next "appropriate" level ... liek ..220

[Obtena]

That ignores the fact that people roll twinks for a reason and it is usually different than the reason someone rolls a 220 toon. The old level changes didn't have that impact.

[Gridpain]

Hardly the point but yes, you could level to 220. That ignores the fact that people roll twinks for a reason and it is usually different than the reason someone rolls a 220 toon.

A former 74 could indeed level to 75, high TL3... T4 or more, yes

Not my fault if "the next appropriate PVP point" of your 207+ TL5 twink is 220...

[Obtena]

Not suggesting it is your fault and there is no need to victimize yourself for sympathy here. No one is attacking you. The only problem with your comparison is that the old change expanded the ranges while allowing for twinks to go up to the next level range or a few levels within their own range. That's OK because those twinks stayed useful in their level range, or could continue to be with an adjustment. That was their purpose.

Whatever is suggested as a fix for this problem is going to have the opposite effect; reduction of PVP level ranges resulting in twinks leveling, not because it's advantageous or useful for them, but because their purpose is removed. The motivation between people wanting this change and FC's reasoning behind the old changes are completely different.

[Gridpain]

Not suggesting it is and there is no need to victimize yourself for sympathy here. No one is attacking you.

Of course ! I m 164 !

[Tanana]

That's OK because those twinks stayed useful in their level range, or could continue to be with an adjustment.

As has been suggested whats to stop the 207 twinks leveling up to 220. There is just as much need for PvP to occur at 220 and this is exactly the option that those players would have, so they wouldn't be 'punished'.

Why are you hanging onto TL7 twinks? Their only purpose in NW is to stop NW happening.