Will FC change any pvp level ranges?

[Armus]

Depends how you define success doesn't it? Again, you don't seem to comprehend or want to acknowledge that there are other reasons that TL5 NW is inactive and that this big nerf you are proposing could be completely ineffectual in making people come and fight you in TL5 NW. You want to get all philosophical on me? If a game isn't played, how do you win it? If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a noise?

No thanks. Let's stick to something real, like the mechanics of the game.

Haha. Just answer the question.

[Obtena]

Tell me what you define as success in NW and we might have something else to talk about. Like I said, depends how you define it. Of course at this point you aren't even interested in talking about the topic, just arguing with me about philosophy, but that's fine. You see how this works out for other threads right?

[Armus]

It has absolutely nothing to do with philosophy. But a whole lot to do with common sense. You can neither win or lose, or be unsuccessful or successful at a game that is never played.

[Obtena]

Sorry, I must have missed what your definition of success for NW is again. Can you repeat it?

You wanted to steer the discussion in this direction, so pony up big guy. You know what I'm already going to say right? You opened this Pandora's box. Going to hide behind some notion you aren't successful at NW because you aren't actually playing TL5 NW due to the existence of 207 twinks? Can you explain how you can or can't be successful when there were periods where you weren't actually playing TL5 NW before 207 twinks existed as well? You don't see a paradox forming there that emphasizes my point about 'other' factors that cause inactive NW? That's OK, we have covered that already but if you want a second round, come on and bring it. I'm ready.

[Armus]

Sorry, I must have missed what your definition of success for NW is again. Can you repeat it?

You wanted to steer the discussion in this direction, so pony up big guy. You know what I'm already going to say right? You opened this Pandora's box. Going to hide behind some notion you aren't successful at NW because you aren't actually playing TL5 NW due to the existence of 207 twinks?

Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go and say something like that. First let me prove to you that we are indeed very succesful:

In: "Stret East Bank
Area: Southern Lower River Bank
Type: III
Level: 117

In: "Eastern Fouls Plains
Area: Old Plains
Type: VII
Level: 255

In: "Broken Shores
Area: The Notum Plains
Type: II
Level: 81

In: "Wailing Wastes
Area: North of Yuttos
Type: I
Level: 22

In: "Central Artery Valley
Area: Fisher Village Approach
Type: IV
Level: 164

In: "Milky Way
Area: The Barren Hills
Type: IV
Level: 150

In: "Avalon
Area: Draught
Type: II
Level: 80

In: "Belial Forest
Area: Muddy Pools
Type: III
Level: 114

In: "Greater Omni Forest
Area: Dragonback Ridge
Type: I
Level: 22

In: "Broken Shores
Area: Central Desert north
Type: II
Level: 80

In: "Belial Forest
Area: Southwest Belial Mining District
Type: IV
Level: 165

In: "Perpetual Wastelands
Area: Lower Plateu Zone
Type: III
Level: 100

In: "Athen Shire
Area: Academy Ore
Type: I
Level: 22

There you go. The fields my org controls atm. We're also constantly the top agressors on clan side and on the server. So perhaps you could stop insinuating that my org isn't succesful? Let's drop that now okay?

Can you explain how you can or can't be successful when there were periods where you weren't actually playing TL5 NW before 207 twinks existed as well?

It's not black and white. There are degrees of everything. It's never been remotely as bad as it is now. We've explained that to you many times now why.

You don't see a paradox forming there that emphasizes my point about 'other' factors that cause inactive NW? That's OK, we have covered that already but if you want a second round, come on and bring it. I'm ready.

All you are ready for is to keep blabbering. You keep defending the "rights" of 207 twinks to the death and how noone should ever have to face changing ranges while they have been changed twice already. And in the same breath you are telling everyone that in order to do tl5 nw you need to play tl4's and tl7's. That's just laughable, stupid and nonsensical to the extreme.

ps. Ofcourse there are other factors such as low population in general and others. Never claimed otherwise. But I've been in literally hundreds of tl5 battles over the years and I've seen first hand what a group of low tl7's with 220 pockets do to both sides. It always ends with ppl saying **** this lame ****. Gonna do something else. So I KNOW what I'm talking about.

[Wrangeline]

I'm unable to sleep atm so I read this entire thread just out of pure boredom. 2 overall things came to mind.

1. Obtena, you are very condescending (in the offensive sense).

2. I see no justification for this condescension. At least what other people are saying here is based on tangible logic. The fact that you dismiss what they are saying with glib answers like "I guess you don't know math" and such is simply you purposefully missing the point. Of course they can do the math, they are just trying to look beyond the math.

What makes a game fun is not based solely in arithmetic. Nothing is perfect simply because "it is what it is". Everything is up for debate. I have seen people bring up good points as to why the current range is hindering fun and I have heard little or nothing tangible from you about why the current range is perfect or even good the way it is.

The simple fact that you are championing a system that demonstrably promotes people using 2-3 chars instead of 1 char each, is giving me a lot more questions than answers. So let me ask one question, just so I can get some insight into why you are so adamant about this.

Question:

If you could choose between doing PvP on one character (let's say a tl5 for a tl5 field), or dual log a tl7 with the tl5 and having a tl4 logged off near field as a reserve, which option would you choose? Which one do you think is best for the game as a whole? You can say that this is not the specific scenario you are championing but don't forget that this is the result of the system you are championing.

I just get a bit confused when you are dead against a practical-based (as opposed to purely math-based) and non-linear PVP-range system, that is based on levels and powers that are anything but linear and math-based. If the power of characters was a smooth curve or line on a piece of graph paper then I could at least see the logic behind having a smooth curve or line to represent the PvP-ranges. But what we got is a smooth level-range curve that is following a very jagged level/power-ratio curve.

You guys can argue back and forth all day long as to exactly what level ranges would be best, but blindly saying that the current system is fine because "you can just do the math and adjust accordingly", while blindly overlooking all the small important details surrounding that issue, is not very productive.

At this point I think it actually would help if everyone stopped trying to focus on what system you think would work... and instead try to be honest with yourself about what kind of NW-PvP YOU think is fun. How do you wish NW battles to be? What do you want to do in such battles?

My view on this point is very simple. I enjoy battles where nothing lame happens. Being alphaed by a red player falls into the category of lame and alphaing a gray player falls into that category as well. I don't want to buff up, go to rally, talk tactics with my friends and then get instakilled by some 214 twink. I wouldn't want that to happen no matter how many 220's I could use to kill that 214. The point is quite simply.. I would have 900% more fun if I could show up on my tl5, buff up on my tl5, PvP on my tl5 alongside other tl5's and then rejoice or emo-rage on my tl5 depending on how the fight went.

I never join any MMO thinking or hoping that I will end up having the kind of lame-PvP that we have atm in AO. Not because I suck at math, but because I know what is and isn't fun for me.

[Obtena]

I'm not debating if it's not fun. That's a personal opinion. The 'fun' most people seeking in this thread is at the expense of the people that follow the guidelines that already think it's fun to follow those rules and win NW, otherwise they wouldn't have rolled those 207 twinks in the first place. If you want the kind of 'fun' I believe people are after PVPing at TL5 without TL7 interference, there are other outlets for people to do so without making changes to this aspect of the game and ruining someone else's fun and hard work.

Again, here comes the assumption that everyone thinks this isn't fun. It's simply not true.

Since you are being rather logical, I will give you an honest answer to some of your questions:

1. I honestly think that the strategy introduced at Tl5 with the enhanced ladder leveling is good for the game. I think while it's not ideal, people are quick to forget just how crap the older ways really were. It IS an improvement to having 149 twinks. Recall that the old way not only made people cap at 149, it made any twink past 120 in the same situation with 165+ twinks now. The new scheme is WAY better now that it has made another 40 levels an 'interesting' place to make twinks in.

2. The power curve is a red herring, because everyone KNOWS it exists. The shape is irrelevant. I'm not arguing that the ladder leveling makes sense in those TL6-7 ranges because it doesn't. I'm arguing that everyone that does NW knows it doesn't make sense and has no excuse to ignore it when making twinks.

3. I too enjoy battles where nothing lame happens, but the fact is that lame stuff happens at ALL TL's. As long as level laddering exists, then one of those lame things you can count on is getting alphaed by a twink at the top of your range for any TL, not just TL5. If we didn't subject ourselves to lame things in NW, none of us would be doing ANY NW.

4. The expectation that TL5 NW should be some 'exclusive' TL5-only activity is a fantasy. If you want that, go PVP in BS because that's it's purpose ... narrow level ranges that exist solely for PVP. NW isn't about exclusive level ranges and 'nice' PVP fights. It's about a war, conflict and winning at all costs with the best strategy. That's the part that makes 207 twink killers COMPLETELY reasonable ... level laddering is a completely intended strategy. I really can't believe that people are still not onboard with that concept.

[Obtena]

Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber you go and say something like that. First let me prove to you that we are indeed very succesful:

You asked how you could be successful if you can't play the NW game, but you listed all the sites you have, proving your successful. There was Tl5 sites in there. So, you just showed you can be successful at TL5, even though you claim you haven't had a good TL5 tower war for 3 years. There you go ... answered your own question. Thanks for that.

[Wrangeline]

Again, here comes the assumption that everyone thinks this isn't fun. It's simply not true. It's no more lame to be alphaed at 165 by a 207 twink than it is to be alphaed at any other level by a twink higher than you. The effect is the same, there is no difference.

This is why you end up having a lot of looping and repeating discussions with people in so many threads. You add one more slightly wrong thing to each post that people have to comment on and also add in some faulty logic for good measurement. Here's an example of what I mean by that:

1. I never made an assumption that everyone thinks the current system isn't fun. I haven't made any assumptions about what other people think is fun or not. I only commented on what I personally think is fun and what is not and I asked you and whoever else was reading my post to be honest with yourselves about what you think is fun. This whole "here comes the assumption that everyone thinks this isn't fun"-thing is entirely rooted in your mind and not in reality. If you want to have productive discussions with people then you need to stop doing that.

2. There is a difference between tl7 vs tl5 and for example a high tl4 vs a low tl 4. just because you say there's no difference, doesn't make it true. I can only assume that you base your logic on the fact that a higher level twink will "always" win over a lower level twink. Such black and white simplistic view on a situation doesn't work for me though. If you present a point of view that purposefully neglects to take into account important factors, then your point of view isn't going to be worth much. Just as a random example (of several), the difference between tl7 vs tl5 and high tl4 vs low tl4 is that in shadowlevels you gain a kind of advantage that you just don't get at tl4 for example. A 207 or 214 twink can take down a whole team of tl5's solo, because of the extra power that shadowlevels give. A high tl4 wont have such an easy time with a team of low tl4's because the difference in power isn't as great there as it is between a tl5 and a tl7. There is an obvious difference, but because you simply chose to take the simplistic view on the situation, you bypass these things and thus get people responding negatively to you once again. And the cycle continues.

But I'm not going to contribute more to this cycle. I've said my piece and now I'm going to bed!

[Obtena]

Well, if people aren't assuming everyone thinks it's not fun, why should their selfish points of view be considered in higher moral standing than my own and not challenged to the very core? I'm being condescending? I will take that label from you if I can show just how selfish some people are being.

As for point 2, that difference isn't really relevant if you buy into the whole concept of laddering leveling that anyone who participates in NW must do. Yes, a 207 can take down a team of TL5's. That's why the twink killing, ladder leveling strategy is most interesting and complex at TL5 than any other TL. Battles at TL5 are the MOST complex you can organize in AO which makes them unpopular, but for those that do and pull it off, it's very rewarding. People responding negatively to that don't want to deal with the complexity and try to make it appear unmanageable for players when the reality is that it's a completely player-made issue and completely manageable with the right planning.

[Gunfytr]

You asked how you could be successful if you can't play the NW game, but you listed all the sites you have, proving your successful. There was Tl5 sites in there. So, you just showed you can be successful at TL5, even though you claim you haven't had a good TL5 tower war for 3 years. There you go ... answered your own question. Thanks for that.

His point is that no one will attack his towers. They are successful, but in being successful, have killed the little part of the game he enjoys. With the current state of Omni, I wouldnt go out and hit towers on any of my toons. Its not worth the wasted 2 hrs, nor is it worth a tower flag.

[Armus]

You asked how you could be successful if you can't play the NW game, but you listed all the sites you have, proving your successful. There was Tl5 sites in there. So, you just showed you can be successful at TL5, even though you claim you haven't had a good TL5 tower war for 3 years. There you go ... answered your own question. Thanks for that.

I told you several times by now that what I want is action. not just sitting on 12 fields.

It's the action we want. And we're not getting it.

My org can and will make any level twinks needed and we already have them.
But the community WON'T. I'm not so egotistical that I will tell them that they are wrong.

The end result is no action for me with my twinks at every level. We can either stop there and accept the game we want as being dead 8tl5 nw) or we can ask for change.

[Armus]

Well, if people aren't assuming everyone thinks it's not fun, why should their selfish points of view be considered in higher moral standing than my own and not challenged to the very core? I'm being condescending? I will take that label from you if I can show just how selfish some people are being.

As for point 2, that difference isn't really relevant if you buy into the whole concept of laddering leveling that anyone who participates in NW must do. Yes, a 207 can take down a team of TL5's. That's why the twink killing, ladder leveling strategy is most interesting and complex at TL5 than any other TL. Battles at TL5 are the MOST complex you can organize in AO which makes them unpopular, but for those that do and pull it off, it's very rewarding. People responding negatively to that don't want to deal with the complexity and try to make it appear unmanageable for players when the reality is that it's a completely player-made issue and completely manageable with the right planning.

Great. You admit that tl5 NW is unpopular and complex and that the reason why it is so is THE LADDERING.

Logically that should mean that to anyone who wants tl5 NW to live again, the laddering needs to get fixed or at least adjusted, right? Or are you saying that your own idea of fun, 130-220 involvement to take out a tl5 ct is more important than the will of everyone else?

So important that you will rather see tl5 NW continue indefinitely in it's dead state (which we all know it will continue to be) rather than accepting changes.

[Tanana]

Ob..

I find it hillarious that you haven't even given a thought to the people your debating this issue with. These are some of the best and most active players in PvP on RK1 and the people that own almost all NW sites TL4+.

Seems strange that you've taken the stance of being 'successful' against players that are clearly very successful and have more to lose if 'Twink Killers' are removed from the game. After all, even though both sides have TL7 twink killers it stands to reason that the ones on Omni side arn't being too successful atm (since <news flash> Omni don't have many, if any, TL5 towers atm).

Just as a side note, are you by chance the 212 MA on RK2 with the same name?

[Pomidor]

have read this topic from start... Back to point: Changing pvp ranges is not possible without changeing game mechanics. Currently PVP is based on 25% of player lvl, so laddering will be always in fasion, since "low-to-top" range gives certain adventages, scaled even more when SL levels go into count. This mechanics, since bgining wasnt bad or good - it just required workaround, thats all. Thats why we had (RK2) twinks weird lvl 32, lvl 52, 70 - at some point players decided to still have adventage over those 25/45/60, but they avoided ones at lvl 60/90.

As for NW itself, being dead, from one side its low playerbase, and second are changes: if you look at PVP in AO atm its mostly /duel or BS - no lose, no time needed for rezz or getting buffs. Such change imho had huge impact on NW, because on tower wars players can actually die and waste time, and after all, gain is to weak - its better to go to S10 to farm, then do NW, right?

[Obtena]

Great. You admit that tl5 NW is unpopular and complex and that the reason why it is so is THE LADDERING.

Logically that should mean that to anyone who wants tl5 NW to live again, the laddering needs to get fixed or at least adjusted, right? Or are you saying that your own idea of fun, 130-220 involvement to take out a tl5 ct is more important than the will of everyone else?

So important that you will rather see tl5 NW continue indefinitely in it's dead state (which we all know it will continue to be) rather than accepting changes.

Change is up to the players. If they don't want to accept the consequences of level laddering at Tl5, then that's their decision. If they can't deal with the complexity of NW at TL5, I don't see why it's an FC priority to fix it.

[Obtena]

My org can and will make any level twinks needed and we already have them.
But the community WON'T. I'm not so egotistical that I will tell them that they are wrong.

Then you win NW and are successful. Congratz.

I mean, you want action? Getting rid of 207 twinks doesn't ensure that. Like you said, the real NW people like yourselves WILL make any level twinks needed to win. That includes 207's. The fact that the community won't make any level twink needed isn't going to be fixed by changing ladder leveling rules at TL5.

[Wrangeline]

I don't see why it's an FC priority to fix it.

Not even when the alternative is no NW?

Just for the record, while I do enjoy tl5 vs tl5 more than tl4-7 vs tl4-7, I can live with tl4-7 vs tl4-7 as long as NW is active. If AO's population makes a huge leap with the new engine and such (which I actually doubt at this point), and NW becomes active again, then I can live with the current system. Basically, what I'm saying is that general activity is obviously more important to me than what system is in place. As long as we get a constant source of action.

But if the current system is in any way more disruptive to activity than some other system, then it's always worth discussing the merits of a different system.

[Gridpain]

Just for the record, while I do enjoy tl5 vs tl5 more than tl4-7 vs tl4-7, I can live with tl4-7 vs tl4-7 as long as NW is active.

But But ... My TL4 is not in range of the lowest TL5

I fail ...



(I fail with my TL5 too, specialy when I rush a CT to alpha it on creation while forgeting to bring Shield disablers )

[Obtena]

Not even when the alternative is no NW?

As long as the fix doesn't guarantee activity, which it can't, then no, not even if the alternative is no NW.