More health for the Atrox, and more nano pool for the Nanomage

[Bionitrous]

Opifex - Most flexible

As witnessed by having the largest number of green abilities and the lowest net cost to max all abilities.

As I recall, they get about a quarter million extra IP based on maxing their abilities compared to the other breeds.

That offers .... flexibility.

They aren't a 'bad' choice for any profession. And are pretty damn good choices for a couple professions.

[ZanEridath]

I applaud Funcom's attempts to better balance the races.

Nice benefit for Atroxes.

I agree with comments that nanopool for the most part isn't that valuable due to the pratical limits around the recharge rate of the nanopool.

There are a number of suggestions around how to better balance out the nanomage. They all sound like decent changes that would balance nanomage, but I've a concern that some of them would be difficult for Funcom to implement (meaning they won't happen).

Things that seem to be easier:
-raise the nanomage Int and Psy limits
-change it so that nanomage currently gets 2.5 extra max health per skill rank as opposed to 2.
-create nanomage only nano recharge kits (in addition to the extra nano pool) that can be bought in shops so that nanomages can have stacks of 1000 (which they regularly buy). [Not particularly helpful to any nanomages that don't continuously cast nanos in battle.]

Definately the Nano resist, Nano Init, Fumble reduction, Nano cost reduction and other ideas seem like they'd be balancing (and even preferred in many cases). I'm just not sure how easy they'd be to implement in the current codebase and thus how likely they'd be to make it into a patch.


Regards,
ZanEridath

[Toxinator]

Well i think that any change is a welcome change but Nanomages already have more then enough nanopool, i mean at lvl 137 i have over 4000 nano i dont think i will need much more personally. But i think that nanomages need more HP mostly at higher lvls because even with 190 HP implants i only have appx 2300 hp (odins plays a role since i am a MP) and that is not enough since i am taken out in a few hits. (armor is a full suit ql 200 elite with a ql 200 Albrecht tank

Some people say well you have a heal pet but in missions MPs get yelled at if ppl die and get pissed since they didnt have a heal pet on them. But that is another thing all together.

Simply i think that these boosts should b changed or at least give the Nano a bit more HP pliz =)

-=Lord Tritoch=-
137 MP
Advisor - Hand of Chronos

[Peisinoe]

I'm not sure how people can discuss breeds while dragging profs in to it. *shrug*

If nano could actually implant int/psy, or if there were actual buffs other then the self only odin's eye, then I don't think there'd be any real problem with the nano breed. If you want hps, then don't play one. It is their strength they were suppose to have that isn't there...simply because Funcom has concentrated everything on brute force. This game centers around str/stam/agi much more so then int/psy. Kind of sad.

The breed itself needs no more fixing. Current game mechanics do.

[Toxinator]

The only reason prof was brought into it is because with a nano MP you lose an additional 250 health with odins it was not intentional to bring breed in. But profession plays a large part in breed in my opinion, i mean you dont see many nano enf, why? because enf arent meant to b nanos since they are supposed to have a lot of HP and be a "tank".

And i get dont be a nano if you are gonna complain about HP, but i mean its hard being a nano since you have no hp essentially, and a lot of the professions that excel in nano skills would do well as nano but suffer for it with a lack of HP.

All i am saying is give us (us being nanos) a little more HP. I for one do not need the extra nano pool I need more HP. And sure i think that atrox and the other breeds should have more but when nanos have a small fraction, i think thats kinda unfair.

Mabye i am wrong and mabye people disagree with me, but hey whatever.

-=Lord Tritoch=-
137 (nano) MP
Advisor - Hand of Chronos

[_____________Federot]

Everyone stop thinking with your profession and start thinking with your breed.

A larger HE because you have more Nano Pool?
A larger Mongo because you have more HP?

Both are selfish toward your profession and not related to the balancing of the breeds.

Nanomages can cast things sooner that other breeds, however at the higher levels that advantage disappears, and adding more nanopool DOES NOT make up for anything. Rather than giving them 2hp/4np...give them 2.5hp/3.5np (giving them more hp AND more np in a balanced way)

Atroxes should have reasonably more hp than other breeds, as their "mind" stats are horrible as the trade off. However I think that 4hp/2np is skewed and it should be 3.5hp/2.5np (giving them more hp AND more np in a balanced way)

I think this would be a much better way to level the "breed playingfield".

-Yense

[Peisinoe]

What if int/psy had more buffs?

What if int/psy were implanted in the same locations as stam/agi/str?

Don't you think then you might see some more benifits from being a nano?

You'll never get more hp. Or you'd be a souped up solitus. Try thinking of ways for Funcom to build on your strengths. Not give you new ones.

[____________Psiraven]

Its a step in the right direction, though still inadequate.

[_______________Sjoko]

I'm prolly stepping on a lot of toes here, but you gotta ask.

Can someone please tell me what is so bad with the nano breed ?

I mean compare Nano towards Atrox:
Nanomage
Strength 464
Agility 464
Stamina 448
Intelligence 512
Sense 480
Psychic 512
Average base abillity "score": 480
Total baseabillities score: 2880
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point: 2


Atrox
Strength 512
Agility 480
Stamina 512
Intelligence 400
Sense 400
Psychic 400
Average base abillity "score": 450.68
Total baseabillity score: 2704
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 2
HP gained pr. body dev point: 3


Solitus:
Strength 472
Agility 480
Stamina 480
Intelligence 480
Sense 480
Psychic 480
Average base abillity "score": 478.67
Total baseabillity score: 2872
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point: 3


Opifex:
Strength 464
Agility 544
Stamina 480
Intelligence 464
Sense 512
Psychic 448
Average base abillity "score": 485.33
Total baseabillity score: 2912
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point:3

Based upon that I can't really see why Nano breed is that much worse off than the other breeds. In fact from this little overview it seems like atrox so much worse off that you start to wonder why you even pick that breed.

Yeah I know that this is a little more variable that it seems from this overview.

Just an example, take a level 200 MA (just so we have the same profession to compare with):
Solitus
Nano: 2787 (nanopool skill 659)
Hp: 4387 (body. dev 659)
Sum: 7174 nano & hp

Opifex
Nano: 2572 (nanopool skill 654)
HP: 4192 (body. dev 659)
Sum: 6764 nano & hp

Nanobreed
Nano: 3010 (nanopool 665)
HP: 3512 (body. dev 651)
Sum: 6522 nano & hp

Atrox
Nano: 1692 (nanopool 642)
HP: 4426 (body dev. 667)
Sum: 6118 nano & hp

Again the class that comes worse off is Atrox. Nanobreed is just about on par with opi and solitus is the one with most hp+nano.

I didn't even say anything about van horn vest (until now) or the shades. If we count them into the equation on the first overview, the average will go up to 493.33 IF (big IF there, I know it's rare) the vest gives +20 to int.

And the reason why I mention those two items is that those two are nanobreed ONLY, the other breeds don't have items like that or items that are nowhere close. I AM aware that they are hard to get and rare, but heh a rather small guild I am in managed to get 2 and so can you if you really want to.

I bet half of you won't even read what I have to say, I don't care, half of you aren't interested in facts or numbers.

Anyway from these numbers I can't really see what's wrong with the nanobreed. So tell me what's the big problem.

I can tell you that the biggest problem for Atroxes is that they aren't balanced if you think about hp v.s. skilldrawback vs nanopoints. Atroxes have the lowest average base abillity score which is on average 30 points less than the other professions and for measly 19hp and 1100 less nano, that is for the MA profession. The differences might be more or less on other professions.

I used skillemu to come to these numbers, it might not be a 100% correct, however it shows us an estimate.

I'm guessing this will be an unpopular post, I don't mean to spit in the faces of those who have a nanobreed character, but rather ask what's the big problem with the breed in itself, what limits do you have as a nanomage ?

[_______________Vydas]

I don't want to argue at all, as I'm actually finding this very educational. I'm wondering what the different IP expenditures would be for your 4 MAs, in order to get to those scores you've listed. Does one breed have a distinct advantage or disadvantage in terms of IPs spent? At least in my mind, that can be a whole different facet of this discussion.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Vydas
I don't want to argue at all, as I'm actually finding this very educational. I'm wondering what the different IP expenditures would be for your 4 MAs, in order to get to those scores you've listed. Does one breed have a distinct advantage or disadvantage in terms of IPs spent? At least in my mind, that can be a whole different facet of this discussion.

Good point:
Skill emu reports that as level 200 you should have 8.235.500 ips without any expenditures. So I'm just setting what they all end at, when I max base abillities and nanopool + bodydev.

Solitus: 6.430.656 = 1804844 ips spent
Opi: 6.549.313 = 1686187 ips spent
Nano: 6.466.288 = 1769212 ips spent
Atrox: 6.592.843 = 1642657 ips spent

So op and atrox has the cheapest abillities, while nano have the second cheapest and solitus are worse off. Not a too surprising result, well I thought maybe opi would be worse off. That wasn't the case.

These are examples for the MA that I had an example with on my earlier post.

[_______________Vydas]

Thanks - I am not good at the math stuff . And, yes, I had meant for that MA in your previous post.

[aiwass777]

Originally posted by Sjoko
IAnd the reason why I mention those two items is that those two are nanobreed ONLY, the other breeds don't have items like that or items that are nowhere close. I AM aware that they are hard to get and rare, but heh a rather small guild I am in managed to get 2 and so can you if you really want to.

To even mention these items in a way that hints at the possibility that they may somehow balance the breed is pure ignorance. There should be a disclaimer in character gereration that states 'Do not play this breed unless you are a twink or a Metaphysicist'.

Game balance should not be achieved by spending weeks and months camping an over-camped high level mob just to be able to equip armor at the same quality as everyone else. It should be easy and inexpensive to obtain, without any quests, camping, or other stupid means.

~Hoopspro

[GoldenEagle]

finelly ill be a happy atrox fixer

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Hoops


To even mention these items in a way that hints at the possibility that they may somehow balance the breed is pure ignorance. There should be a disclaimer in character gereration that states 'Do not play this breed unless you are a twink or a Metaphysicist'.

Game balance should not be achieved by spending weeks and months camping an over-camped high level mob just to be able to equip armor at the same quality as everyone else. It should be easy and inexpensive to obtain, without any quests, camping, or other stupid means.

~Hoopspro

Is that your best ?

I mean come on. I'm being ignorant for asking what's so wrong, you're being ignorant if you leave those things out of the equation totally. As I see it those items aren't there to balance the breed out, but rather to empower them.

If you read my post correctly, it's not all about those items either. If you noticed, I only mentioned those items, said they weren't impossible to get. I didn't hint at anything, if there's something I hint about that is that atroxes should get something to balance them out.

The way I see it nanomages are balanced out already, unless someone comes up with a good reply to why the nanomage breed needs balancing.

[Blackwing]

this discussion is spanning more threads then any i have seen so far.

critics seem to miss seperating profession issues from breed issues.

*shrug*

[Routeen]

Originally posted by Sjoko
I'm prolly stepping on a lot of toes here, but you gotta ask.


I'm guessing this will be an unpopular post, I don't mean to spit in the faces of those who have a nanobreed character, but rather ask what's the big problem with the breed in itself, what limits do you have as a nanomage ?

It is simple, it is just the health. Comparing Atrox to Nano is the wrong way to go, since Atrox is also way gimped. Compare nano to Soli.

Until Title 5, the stat differences do not show up, really. But the health differences have been there all along. So for the first 150 lvls, you are getting much less health, with little to no compensation.

Even after they show up, w/o some extremely rare gear, the difference btwn Nano and Soli is like 9 pts. in nanoskills, and trivially more pool.

So, the problem NMs have always had, is they are strictly worse than Soli for almost every profession.

So, the issue in the post is, what compensation should NMs get for taking the health hit?

Getting pool, for most professions, simply does not seem like enough, given the relative values of health and pool.

[Peisinoe]

Originally posted by Hoops
'Do not play this breed unless you are a twink or a Metaphysicist'.

Well, I don't think you're thinking very clearly if you make statements like this. Trader/MP are the LAST profs you'd ever want to be nano with. *shrug* Think real hard and figure out why for yourself.

Like Black/Sj, I agree. It isn't a breed issue. It is a game mechanic issue in my eyes. As long as int/psy are piss poor in buffs/imps/eq, nano will be lacking. The breed itself needs nothing more. Just directions for them to excell in.

And profs shouldn't be in this thread. Stop trying to narrow every prof down to breed x is best for prof y. Go play eq and be a wood elf druid if that is what you wish.

[OysteinR]

Well, I'm gonna create a nanomage char on test this weekend.
A nanomage doctor.
Docs got stamina buffs, HP buffs (2 of them stackable even), HOTs and heals. But you are always running out of nano.
This is a profession where the increased nanopool would be a plus.

I also wanna test the new tradeskills that use pharmatech.

[__________THEDEACON!]

Originally posted by Anikitos
You are just pissed off because you choose the wrong breed.
. I want the effectivness of mongo raised...lets increase it the

I picked a caster profession. I don't like to think that I rolled the "wrong" breed for casters. I want to look at my breed and say "yeah, I did alright".

Metaphysicists are like religious scientists that use their minds to create physical manifestations, nanobuffs, etc. So why is it that such an intelligent profession is best played by a hulking ape-like dummy (please don't take offense atroxes :P)

Think about it. If anyone rolls anything but an atrox for MP from here on out, they've gimped themselves. Worried about the low int? cast odin's eye. You lose 250 hp, but you've already gained over 700 over a solitus (who probably doesnt cast odin's after lvl 160) so you're nearly on equal playing field with a solitus int wise, but you've still got nearly 500 hp advantage.

I repeat for the last time, this is stupid. Hp is what keeps us alive in this game and there is NOTHING more precious than hp. If I had been informed how much more hp an atrox was going to get in this patch, I WOULD HAVE PICKED ATROX.

The only fair solution then is to allow us to change our breed to atrox. I bet 90% of nanomages would jump at that opportunity. More nanopool for mages.....WHY? I have 6000 np already and can only recharge 1258 in between fights. What good does more nanopool give me? Oh yeah, I have a -24% nanocost spell and a -15% cpu upgrade. Yeah, I really need more np.

I've practically spammed each board with my one, truly good, suggestion: nanoskill bonuses for nanomages. No, it does NOT make us overpowered. If having +50 more nanoskills at lvl 200 than a solitus makes us overpowered, then so does an atrox having +700 more hp than a solitus and gobs more hp than a nanomage!

funcom is making a gigantic mistake here. If this is the way they plan on implementing the breed changes, I'd rather them do nothing for now and rethink the entire idea. All this does is further imbalance the breeds and makes nanomage even less desirable to play. As it is, I can get by and even excel at pvm and especially pvp, but after the next patch, there will be so many atrox rerolls it isn't funny.

If this is how FC wants to implement it, let me change to atrox. Give all of us that option.