Sounds like a good change too me, nanomage need hp ofcourse, but we all knew when we started a nanomage that we would have less and that we would hopefully be better with nanos...
Sounds like a good change too me, nanomage need hp ofcourse, but we all knew when we started a nanomage that we would have less and that we would hopefully be better with nanos...
I also think this is a good change.
It logical and fits the breeds much better then before, so just because of that I think it should go in!
Will it unbalance the breed balance for some classes? Sure it will
Does it make Atrox Uber? no I don't think so...
Does nanomage get enough... hum... hard one... personally I think nm need something more then just nanopool... that since hp is so important...
One way to help the nm a bit would be to raise the breedcap on Int/Psy a bit... perhaps 20-30 points or so... that would help nanoskills at higher levels but not so much that it unbalances the game.
Even if nm doesn't get any more boost then more nanopool, it will still make them "better" then before
It will most def help nm in the mid levels where one tends to run out of nano most often...
Last edited by Dhurdahl; Oct 14th, 2002 at 12:52:34.
Dhur the Ninja Pirate NT!
Its all about HP, I`ll take health any day. 1k extra health is great, the nano and nanoskills points wouldnt keep anyone alive for 1 more hit anyway, pvp wise....
So it all boils down to that if you chose a lesser breed, with regard to HP, you accept the extra challenge that is...
Yeah, definately a great change, the most uber (not possible to be an uber NT, but compared to a nanomage) NTs in the game will be Atroxes, time for NTs to scream for a breed change...
President of Ali Baba and the 40 thieves
Garzu 193 Day 1 NT & Garzuperman My Fixer 4 fun since NTs are broken
GA3/4 DESPERATELY NEEDED!!
Another good point made up there. Nanomages could get a 5 to 10 second reduction on the T&S lock.
Okay, I like the idea of making the breeds more differentiated, and support the idea of giving Atroxes more HP. However, Nanomages are still VERY VERY inferior to other breeds at higher levels.
What am i going to do with my green int and psy when i can get WAY better armor using my dark blue STR/STAM with buffs?
Why bother with nanopool when the biggest nano charger I can use (this is with a treatment lab equipped and treatment expertise on, treatment maxed of course) only fills my nanopool up 1/2 way? As a nanomage MP at 142, I simply don't have the treatment to use an adequate nano recharger. As an MP, i have to keep three mochams, two infuses, and odin's missing eye running at all times in order to be able to nuke and cast pets..(plus six expertises). I don't have the NCU to keep a doc treatment buff running either...much less the doc to cast it on me.
TBH, If I had known how much nanomages were useless at higher levels, I wouldn't have played one. At 122 as an MP I could cast all the pets, all the nukes and the buffs...only spells I couldn't cast were some of the higher level creation nanos, which TBH are just for looks, and nothing else. That bieng the reason why a lot of Nanomage MPs quit the game after 130 or so, or start alts and never play their nanomage MPs again, as they have an EXTREMELY hard time using any weapon (all dark blue weapon skills).
As for nanomage HP: To compensate I have three ql200 life implants in as well as maxed body dev and stamina. It helps...some. The ql200 elite I'm wearing seems to make no differience, however. I could probably go in Miir's Uniform Suit and die at about the same rate.
I forgot to mention...my nanopool is only 3800 because I haven't raised it in quite a few levels, due to the fact that chargers don't get anywhere near filling it up.
Hurray, You are saying something contentful! Yes, I could not have put this better myself! The difference will be the same -- i.e. it is always (except for Doc, perhaps) better to have chosen a Solicitus.Originally posted by Paxton
Hahaha, you seem the more polite fellah so I'll explain the purpose.
The upcoming changes give atrox more hp and nanomage more nanopool. We all know this. With the exception of maybe MPs, no atrox plays a nano-dependent profession. What does this mean if indeed nanopool does absolutely nothing? The difference between a nanomage and solitus (the primary casting breeds) will be the same.
Your comment only makes sense if the existing situation is balanced, which it is not. Which is why FC is doing a fix. However, it is a poor one.
The pt. of having different Breeds is to offer a set of trade-offs, not to have a sucker choice.
Its a *fact* that no group will reject you on the basis of being a nanomage instead of a solitus. That means that regardless of changes, you will enjoy teaming at the same level as before. Furthermore, if you are smart enough to keep aggro off of yourself, you will notice nothing but an advantage over solitus.
HP is important for soloing, and there is no doubt solitus are better at titlelevel 5. Soloing at this level, however, is hands down worse xp than teaming, so if the soloing gimpness makes you think it will affect powergaming, it won't.
To sum it up: for the aforementioned reasons, the nanomage complaints are trivial to the several gimped professions, exploits, and bugs. This breed issue has always been a matter of specialization and preference, so I can guarantee you won't see more nanomage changes until the "big" balance issues are solved.
Yes, no surprises here. Now, snce you have spelled out your position, let me explain in better detail why this is not the issue.
1) Lvling in AO is not a challenging or tricky endeavor. For killing vets, in the high end game, no one, not even an NM, has to worry about dying -- the health disadvantage simply does not show up. You are covered not only by your teammates, but by overwhelming superiority. Since the problem does not show up, no one is going to reject NMs, as such.
2) But, you could rightly ask, does it ever show up? Well, in any situation where health actually is central, yes, it does. Any hard encounter, or in PvP, can reveal the problem.
3) Now, it is fine that NMs have less health -- that is one way they are different, and weaker. The question is, what is proper compensation for this? That is why this is a question of game balance.
4) So, the issues you raise about teaming, etc, dont get at the heart of the issue, which is, what would be a fair compensation to NMs for having less health. Unless having more health never matters (in which case there is no balancing issue), your pts. simply do not address this question.
5) You do have another argument. You raise a triage pt -- other issues are more pressing, this is trivial. This is an interesting claim -- might even be true. Fixing engineers for example.
6) However, note that this could still be a bad solution to the Breed balancing issue. So, as far as this issue is concerned, you would still not be discussing it, just dismissing it...
7) But to respond to this idea: I think a lot of professional issues are concealed breed issues. For example, many of the complaints on the NT forum stem from the fact that most NTs are nanomages, and hence are more fragile etc.
Regimental Beastie
Easy math:
whiners = bad players
Rhetoric is useful because... before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct. Aristotle, 1355a20-27
show me a solitus NT that can self cast Kel's w/o any pillows
Rebbeca Omni Tek President
RHD Black Watch Regiment
"Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards."
-Aldous Huxley
This is a really nice response. However, this is only the case in team missions, which you are right, are not challenging in any way, so neither more health nor more nano pool matters.Originally posted by Vydas
Well, specifically at what point does this happen? Before or after everyone stops dying in missions because they are fighting the same thing over and over? It would seem to me that at that point, increased HPs are not such a big deal, either.
As I understand it, this is a step towards highlighting the differences in breeds. I don't recall seeing it's the only thing that will be done in this area, either.
And, it's not at all clear to me how further distinguishing them is imbalancing.
However, for any hard situation, where surviving is an issue, then it does matter (e.g. boss fights, PvP).
In both the easy and the dangerous situation, once I have sufficient nano pool, I can keep casting. More does not help that much, unless you can convert nano to health (like docs).
However, more health means staying alive that much longer, gaining more from CH, etc.
You make another good pt. This might not be the only fix. If that is true, Hurray!! That is essentially what I am arguing for, that this in and of itself, is not sufficient for NMs. It certainly is some improvement -- no one is denying that.
But the main worry NMs have, I think, is that, FC will regard this as having addressed the issue, where only one breed is really getting fixed here...
Last edited by Routeen; Oct 14th, 2002 at 18:42:07.
Regimental Beastie
Easy math:
whiners = bad players
Rhetoric is useful because... before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct. Aristotle, 1355a20-27
Dont forget about Last Word -- we can do that one too... *cough*Originally posted by Rebbeca
show me a solitus NT that can self cast Kel's w/o any pillows
Regimental Beastie
Easy math:
whiners = bad players
Rhetoric is useful because... before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct. Aristotle, 1355a20-27
yes but Kel's is actually useful
Rebbeca Omni Tek President
RHD Black Watch Regiment
"Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards."
-Aldous Huxley
Well, I'd say 142 is not really a basis for judging what's useless at higher levels. *shrug*Originally posted by Warsprite
As a nanomage MP at 142, I simply don't have the treatment to use an adequate nano recharger. TBH, If I had known how much nanomages were useless at higher levels, I wouldn't have played one.
Nano has the high int/psy. The only reason why you don't feel the real benifit is because Funcom screwed over the imp layouts. You can't imp int/psy without sacrificing your nano skills. So the breed strength is 99% of the time unfullfilled. There is nothing wrong with the nano breed.
One thing they did is put them nano regeneration clusters in the game. I just checked and they'll conflict with a few clusters I currently use. But, might be worth the tradeoff. As I stubbornly (and stupidly) use a melee weapon, I'm kinda screwed on the Bright cluster. But, the others, ought to be worth sacrificing for:
--
http://v020u46eff.maximumasp.com/AOD...sp?AOID=166258
Shining conflicts with Runspeed. I can deal with that for 55 nano every 10 secs.
Also conflicts with:
Parry, Pistol, Ranged Init, Riposte, and Sharp Objects.
--
http://v020u46eff.maximumasp.com/AOD...sp?AOID=166254
Bright conflicts with Brawl. Guess I'm keeping the Brawl.
Also conflicts with:
Chemical AC, Phys. Init, and Swimming.
--
http://v020u46eff.maximumasp.com/AOD...sp?AOID=166250
Faded conflicts with DuckExp only. I can deal with the loss of 42 Duck.
They stuck them new clusters in spots that won't screw over the Nuker too badly. Drop all three in for 55+33+22 = 120 nano every 10 seconds. That and an HE might go further towards sustaining the larger Nanomage nanopool.
Last edited by Bionitrous; Oct 14th, 2002 at 22:52:08.
I see.Originally posted by Paxton
To sum it up: for the aforementioned reasons, the nanomage complaints are trivial to the several gimped professions, exploits, and bugs. This breed issue has always been a matter of specialization and preference, so I can guarantee you won't see more nanomage changes until the "big" balance issues are solved.
Great, finally Atrox gets something positive.
700+ hp is ok i guess.
Still imbalanced because of other issues with the base skills compared to the other races, but i hope that will be fixed in the future so Atrox can get even more balanced...as we should.
Now, most of you are positive to this NM/Atrox boost. Most of you recognize the need to balance the breeds.
Then, some of you are *****ing.
Get it through your heads.
ATROX = Master of HP
NM = Master of Nano
You are just pissed off because you choose the wrong breed.
Want to have more HP? Reroll an ATROX.
Want to have more Nano? Rereoll an NM.
Also, some of you wanted better HE to deal with your larger nano pool...ok i agree with that.
But.
As an enforcer, i have lots of HP. I want the effectivness of mongo raised...lets increase it the same % as an eventual increase in HE.
Example...we double HE and mongo effect.
Current - Mongo crush
2314 more HP
230 healing a tick*10
Improved - Mongo Crush
4628 more HP
460 healing a tick*10
NM want a way to fill up their new Nano Pool.
I want a way to fill up my new HP.
After all, enforcer is the original Meatshield...master of HP.
So, you increase the HE by X%...i want the same for mongo as well.
Fair? The math is fair...same %.
I know its fine with you Letah...you are a doc.
But believe me, its fine with me too...after all i can get the same HE you get...mongo is selfonly.
But thx for liking my idea, its a good one i think too.
It really balances enforcers and we need balance.
Also remove the idiotical nano lock on challenger...and finally enforcers will be balanced.
/Anikitos wakes up from the dream...jumping up and down with joy...then realizes its just a dream yet.
Hello,
Atrox should have the advantage of more HP, but 700-1000 is alot compared to Solitus, how about ½ hp pr BD, say increase 1 hp everytime u spent 2 points BD?
Zabretooth
Deity Antoxixian Level 220 Armor Troxpower!!!
Vanguard Zabretooth Level 220
Techno-Wizard Shirax Level 200
Tranquility
My point of view...
Hello there AnikitosOriginally posted by Anikitos
Get it through your heads.
ATROX = Master of HP
NM = Master of Nano Bots
You are right the Nano Mage was built to interact with nano bots and cant iven leave rubi-ka, a very fragile body and enhanced path ways enable the Homo Nano to comunicate better with Nano Bots then any other breed.
On the other hand the Atrox was built for close combat, a strong and healthy body allows the Atrox to take more pain compered to other breeds with the downside of very low capacity for nano bots and lack of inteligence.
My idea to balance the breeds iven further would be:
Homo Nano was created for dealing with nano bots thatway this breed shouldnt simply fumble nano programs:
0% fumble rate
Solitus and Opifex fumble rates should stay the same:
3% fumble rate
Atrox due to the lack of inteligence should fumble the most:
5% fumble rate
In my opinion this would help to difference nano-casting proffesions and wouldnt imbalance the game like extra HE / NCU / NanoDelta for one specific breed. It would be a trade off between Hp's (which are the most important thing in the current game enviroment) and the reliability of nano casting (which every nano using proffesion should consider).
I know I could explain my idea better in my language, but this will have to do.
As for your improved Mongo idea you should understand that the Nano Poll is the main source of offence / defence for the Homo - Nano and 1 np isnt by far so important as 1 hp.
Last edited by hhj; Oct 15th, 2002 at 12:20:15.
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