Enfs and Attack rating

[Gatester]

Did shades get some emergency defense that's not on a 10 min timer when I wasn't looking?

Yeah, its called run away when you fail and maybe not attacking an enforcer when DOF is down? Then come back in 25 seconds because your toolset will be up again, the enforcers will not. Sure the enforcer might fear you, but if your going to complain about a 3 minute locked nano then please try not to argue about the lack of your 10 minute evade buff.

Also, low health and dieing to enforcers because you are "squishy" is your own choice.

[Notcrattey]

Yeah, its called run away

While stunned and feared, sure. An enf who has good timing can get a good amount of time of me not hitting him/her. or the ability to do anything for that matter, except rush to FM stims And I wasn't talking about CiB, I was talking about the ****ty absorb, THAT is an emergency defense.

Also 3 mins=/= 10 mins :S

Also, low health and dieing to enforcers because you are "squishy" is your own choice.

I have 16k HP.

[Moonbolt]

u realy should learn to move away from the enf or stun him once u see MR pop cause theres no way an enf can alpha 16k health with out MR.
u should L2P as i have said earlier.
Notcrattey ur just a big whiner that doesnt know how to play ur profession it seems.
its ok tho... after the balance u wont see any enfs playing in pvp so gg i guess all u guys whinings have gotten what u wanted.

[-Klod-]

u realy should learn to move away from the enf...

How do you move away from enf (which can have up to 5k run speed) once after-fear effect kicks in and stun right after that, combined with a lucky brawl stun as well?

[Moonbolt]

wow im so sick and tired of the danm ohh enfs have so high runspeed ****.... EVERYONE IS CAPPEd AT 2500 RUNSPEED... anything above that doesnt matter.
second of all shades stuns more then enfs do..... a good shade will pop out of stealth with a stun already about to happen on the enf...
but i guess i gotta teach u guys how to play ur professions and how runspeed mechanics work aswell... stop whining ffs.

[Cryfreman]

Cool, can you teach me as a Bow mp user how to beat an Enfo? Thanks in advance.

[Moonbolt]

i have said several times in different posts that bow MP vs enf is a 100% win for the enf ... i dont try to hide that fact .. i have aswell said that bow MPs / sheild MPs needs some kind of middel way between the def from sheild and the offence of bow.

bow MP is the easiest kill an enf can get and u can at most anoy the crap out of us with a dominate.

the responce about moving away from the enf when popping MR was as a tip to a shade tho.

[Notcrattey]

Notcrattey ur just a big whiner that doesnt know how to play ur profession it seems.

It has to be other people right? Maybe it's YOU who should learn to play your profession.

[Gatester]

Nerf perma-fear There are obviously no better targets than shades to use fear on. Besides, you could always perma-stun that enforcer like they do, our shades can do those things too right?

A big hint though, it is very hard for an enforcer to try to use Mongo Rage if you blind him.

[-Klod-]

wow im so sick and tired of the danm ohh enfs have so high runspeed ****.... EVERYONE IS CAPPEd AT 2500 RUNSPEED...

I'm capped at 1,9k, self buffed.

anything above that doesnt matter.

Once you get snared, it does.

[Moonbolt]

self buffed yes. get outside buffs. or even grafts to use for some extra runspeed.
i dont see the fault in melee having a way of staying in range of their target.
i know ur a MP Klod and as i have said.. i feel for MPs in duels vs enfs ur prolly the easiest kill for us.
but theres no reason to nerf the whole profession to oblivion because in our current pvp system we have atm its rock scissor paper based and MP just gets shafted by enfs.
enfs arnt OP... we get shafted by other classes.

[sultryvoltron]

Let's look at a simple analysis of why it's actually a good idea to have more than exactly 2500 RS.

For a good comparison with which I am very familiar, and therefore feel qualified to comment, we'll use Agent vs. Enforcer. Now, I'm not talking about who would win in a fight, but the usefulness of a certain tool: snare perks.

My agent has 2500 RS with GSF (Neutral >.<).

Your typical Enf has what? 3000? 4000? 5000? I've seen some 5ks thrown around here, but I'll go with a nice 4000 RS which is dead in the middle.

Tranquilizer used with Assassin 10 trained debuffs 1200 RS.
Soften Up debuffs 600 RS.

That's a grand total of 1800 RS debuffed. Worth noting, Tranq checks 100% AS vs 80% Evade Close. It's not that easy to land on Enfs without an AR setup wearing a scope. Let's suppose it lands though.

4000-1800=2200 RS remaining. The enf is barely slowed down at all.

Assuming Tranq misses (which it does often enough), the Enf is not slowed down at all.

So yes, you may be soft-capped at 2500 RS, but the more you have the less you feel the effect of snares. Given 5k RS with rage procs, I'm assuming, means Enfs are barely slowed down by snares at all. Even top Fixer snares.

[Moonbolt]

i can honestly tell u 2 things... first i never use rage proc in pvp, its just not worth it cause when u get to stand and beat at same guy long enogh for it to fire off ur already drained or NSDd or w/e debuff u wanna chose, and its just not worth the loss of raging blow, so thats 1 runspeed buff u can remove straight away.
the socond thing is that since u mentioned self buffed earleir i got 2080 runspeed self buffed w/o rage. and u can get the exact same runspeed buffs as i can. specially on agent since u have the option to go enf aswell and use rage.
u can also use ur escape artist thing and get even more runspeed so i dont realy see the point.
the whole point of rage when it was introduced into game was to let enforcers catch the kiters.
and the difference between 2200 RS and 2500 RS might be small.. but in a game like AO its everything. it doesnt matter if i got 1 RS less then u or 5k cause what ever happens that 1 runspeed will always make me be slower so that i wont catch u.

[sultryvoltron]

i can honestly tell u 2 things... first i never use rage proc in pvp, its just not worth it cause when u get to stand and beat at same guy long enogh for it to fire off ur already drained or NSDd or w/e debuff u wanna chose, and its just not worth the loss of raging blow, so thats 1 runspeed buff u can remove straight away.
the socond thing is that since u mentioned self buffed earleir i got 2080 runspeed self buffed w/o rage. and u can get the exact same runspeed buffs as i can. specially on agent since u have the option to go enf aswell and use rage.
u can also use ur escape artist thing and get even more runspeed so i dont realy see the point.
the whole point of rage when it was introduced into game was to let enforcers catch the kiters.
and the difference between 2200 RS and 2500 RS might be small.. but in a game like AO its everything. it doesnt matter if i got 1 RS less then u or 5k cause what ever happens that 1 runspeed will always make me be slower so that i wont catch u.

You are so whiny and ignorant it's not worth my time to try and point out all the flaws in this post.

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote.

[Moonbolt]

i understand ur point that snare perks gets less effective the further u are over the cap in runspeed.
the thing is tho if we both are running at capped runspeed. and u slow me down 300 runspeed then u will gain ground on me during the time i run 300 RS slower then u ... after the snare ends both are at 2500 runspeed again so the ground u have gained u dont loose thus u still get a positive effect of ur snare wich i cant dissmiss.

[Hellrule]

enforcers were never meant to be a kiting profession, there tanks. tanks are slow moving things, that hit hard. with the "nerf" this is exactly what you will be so please stop with your non logical whines about how your enforcer can't move like a fixer anymore and will actually have to grab gsf and worry about snares like the rest of the world.

[sultryvoltron]

i understand ur point that snare perks gets less effective the further u are over the cap in runspeed.
the thing is tho if we both are running at capped runspeed. and u slow me down 300 runspeed then u will gain ground on me during the time i run 300 RS slower then u ... after the snare ends both are at 2500 runspeed again so the ground u have gained u dont loose thus u still get a positive effect of ur snare wich i cant dissmiss.

Yeah, I see your point. Crush Bone doesn't snare people. Enfo fear doesn't either.

Also, see what Hellrule wrote.

[Gatester]

Let's look at a simple analysis of why it's actually a good idea to have more than exactly 2500 RS.

For a good comparison with which I am very familiar, and therefore feel qualified to comment, we'll use Agent vs. Enforcer. Now, I'm not talking about who would win in a fight, but the usefulness of a certain tool: snare perks.

My agent has 2500 RS with GSF (Neutral >.<).

Your typical Enf has what? 3000? 4000? 5000? I've seen some 5ks thrown around here, but I'll go with a nice 4000 RS which is dead in the middle.

Tranquilizer used with Assassin 10 trained debuffs 1200 RS.
Soften Up debuffs 600 RS.

That's a grand total of 1800 RS debuffed. Worth noting, Tranq checks 100% AS vs 80% Evade Close. It's not that easy to land on Enfs without an AR setup wearing a scope. Let's suppose it lands though.

4000-1800=2200 RS remaining. The enf is barely slowed down at all.

Assuming Tranq misses (which it does often enough), the Enf is not slowed down at all.

So yes, you may be soft-capped at 2500 RS, but the more you have the less you feel the effect of snares. Given 5k RS with rage procs, I'm assuming, means Enfs are barely slowed down by snares at all. Even top Fixer snares.

3200 with runspeed symbs and gear, 3000 is more common. With GSF+wolf however, you can get about 4000+. For fun, you can also double rage proc and fully OSB and you hit that 5000 mark, but in active PVP it is generally impossible.

GSF does mean that enforcers ignore snares though, which I also found to be a problem when I pvp'd against them on my toons...I do not mind them breaking my roots, but ignoring my snares with an OSB is a pita.

enforcers were never meant to be a kiting profession, there tanks. tanks are slow moving things, that hit hard. with the "nerf" this is exactly what you will be so please stop with your non logical whines about how your enforcer can't move like a fixer anymore and will actually have to grab gsf and worry about snares like the rest of the world.

But, we do not have the tools to mitigate damage as a tank given the current documentation. AMS allows soldiers to be pvp tanks, spec blockers+reflects for engineers, evades for Acrobat professions, reflects and ward for keepers, and DtN+NS for NT.

Enforcers being slow is fine, but if FC wants us to be a tanking profession they must have some plan in the future to slow down the large amounts of damage we take as well.

[sultryvoltron]

3200 with runspeed symbs and gear, 3000 is more common. With GSF+wolf however, you can get about 4000+. For fun, you can also double rage proc and fully OSB and you hit that 5000 mark, but in active PVP it is generally impossible.

GSF does mean that enforcers ignore snares though, which I also found to be a problem when I pvp'd against them on my toons...I do not mind them breaking my roots, but ignoring my snares with an OSB is a pita.



But, we do not have the tools to mitigate damage as a tank given the current documentation. AMS allows soldiers to be pvp tanks, spec blockers+reflects for engineers, evades for Acrobat professions, reflects and ward for keepers, and DtN+NS for NT.

Enforcers being slow is fine, but if FC wants us to be a tanking profession they must have some plan in the future to slow down the large amounts of damage we take as well.

30% cap should instead be a post-formula 50% (rough number) damage reduction for a max of 7500 damage from FA, 6500 from AS. ACs should reduce damage indefinitely. More ACs should ALWAYS mean less damage. Then, Enfs are basically fine.

Also, AC reduction should happen before 50% damage reduction. That's my opinion.

Edit: Add on that Perks should be a % damage hit based on evades, not hit or miss.

[Moonbolt]

enforcers were never meant to be a kiting profession, there tanks. tanks are slow moving things, that hit hard. with the "nerf" this is exactly what you will be so please stop with your non logical whines about how your enforcer can't move like a fixer anymore and will actually have to grab gsf and worry about snares like the rest of the world.

lol are u trying to explain to me what enforcers used to be like and what they were supposed to be... i was around in 2001 when FA ahd a 1 min recharge and no class had massive attack perks etc.
back then HP wasnt a dissadventage in pvp and back then an enf with a support beam did pretty hughe pvp dmg.
the game has changed. specials has become basically the only effective way of dealing dmg for most classes and evry class has access to a 11 sec capping special if they want.
even an enf can use an AS pistol if they want to.
tbh i dont realy care about the runspeed nerf on rage.
thats one of the least of my worries about the enforcer profession in the future.
enforcers however is getting nerfed on every damn front atm and is getting nothing to compensate for it.
slower alpha means no more killing healers.
shorter duration on stuns + longer cast time on stuns and attack perks = stuns are becoming completly useless in pvp from now on so no stun ganking people, another blow vs actually killing something as an enf.
lower dmg on our 1hb perks is just another way of making enforcers unable to kill anything.
8k extra effective health in pvp doestn matter **** when all its gonna do is make specials cap for 3k more.¨
the loss of 15k health in pvm is a big hit to our soloing abilitys.
the loss of 30% effective absorbs is a hughe nerf in our already crappy defensive toolset.
the 30k / 10 min recharge team save absorbs is a joke.
the changes to fears is a hughe nerf for lowbie enfs that use the fear as CC tool when soloing or in a team w/o calmer etc.
the promised way to keep a target in range for enforcers that is goin to be given to use instead of the runspeed boost on rage, well let me express myself like this, i dont have much hope for it after seeing the rest of the enf changes.
the pvp taunt is also just a crappy tool on a 3 min CD that doesnt even guarantee a certain amount of time that the target has to fight u.

so excuse me if i think enforcersis in a dire situation atm.
specially after seeing keepers and MAs and fixers getting boosts to their toolsets in general.