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Thread: Crat debuffs

  1. #1

    Crat debuffs

    Make it so the red tape nanos can not be stacked with one another and Malaise overrides any red tape nano. There, I fixed PvM so its now more difficult. Discuss and flame, go!

  2. #2
    I think the plan is to combine all the red tapes into 1 uber buff, sorry
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

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  3. #3
    Oh yes please I'd like my Crat to turn into an XP-Totem again! Just remove all debuffs and while you're at it remove those pets, too.

    Honestly... since FC tends to introduce resistances against not resistable nanos (LMN anyone?) I would not be surprised when soon all bosses are immune to Malaise, which defeats the purpose of the nano, but well..

    @Omut afaik they talked about "Collapsing Red Tape Lines into one" which could also mean that they just won't stack anymore and otherwise stay the same. I see no more ubar debuffs introduced in the future.. but the last rebalancing info is from Nov 2009 so... who knows..
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Marijke View Post
    @Omut afaik they talked about "Collapsing Red Tape Lines into one" which could also mean that they just won't stack anymore and otherwise stay the same. I see no more ubar debuffs introduced in the future.. but the last rebalancing info is from Nov 2009 so... who knows..
    Maybe, but i think the understanding is that it was making a single nano instead of 4.
    Might still be 4 nanos that get run mind you, just 1 cast though.

    ps dont make me slap you, theres a B on the end of my name, its there for a reason!
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead." - because Wales just isnt a country

    Chernobyl, providing the freshest bottled water since 1986, for that healthy green glow.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Omutb View Post
    Maybe, but i think the understanding is that it was making a single nano instead of 4.
    Indeed, thats been one of crat's wishlist thingies for quite some time afair, so my guess its that.

    @ topic itself: since mods are being lolworthy, ill rephrase by posting an opinion-counter-suggestion:
    Please make all red tapes have a lower defcheck and a special effect on enforcers and NT's (and maybe those pesky fixers) such as -3k nano init and -600 RS.
    Would balance the difference between these professions a bit...
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
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    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  6. #6
    Well, if all the red tape nanos get collapsed in to one nano (thus making a new nano) aimed at say tl5 and tl6 characters that wont be a problem as long as it cant be stacked with malaise.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    as long as it cant be stacked with malaise.
    Why? It currently stacks with malaise, so whats the problem? especially as your talking about PvM.

    I fail to see how having less init debuff than UBT and no heals makes PvM easy.
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead." - because Wales just isnt a country

    Chernobyl, providing the freshest bottled water since 1986, for that healthy green glow.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    Well, if all the red tape nanos get collapsed in to one nano (thus making a new nano) aimed at say tl5 and tl6 characters that wont be a problem as long as it cant be stacked with malaise.
    I dont really think disallowing stacking with malaise would be a good idea...
    The combined red tapes plus the level locked malaise for certain tl arent really all that much different from UBT, and its still more than one single cast.

    Lets not nerf pre-tl7 crats even more, they already are in the black hole of uselessness.
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
    Reality is a momentary dream but a dream is a reality for an eternity.


    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
    Deadalus "Yumeno" Proxy - 220/30/70 Former stunwhore
    One "Namichan" Piece - 220/30/68 Drainwhore
    Aj Ar "Spawara" Triplenab - 220/24/45 Nuke-Welder
    IOmnomnomjoor "Emohatetellz" - 2/0/0 TL5 killer in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  9. #9
    Actually, valid points, so instead I will introduce a new one.

    Leave things how they are now but make it so the mob, mainly boss mobs, init is at a set high value so that the mob isn't so slow a doc is useless save for a heal or two. For example:

    The boss mob has 6k init, the weapon it uses is mathematically figured so that at certain tiers when it gets init debuffed, the mob does slow down, but not to the point where a doc is virtually unneeded and isn't considered a backup plan if the crat dies, LDs, or afks.

    Also, I would like to see MP damage debuffs not overriding crat debuffs. Pretty much, I would like to see all support professions being used, and not the typical "enf, doc, sol crat +2 dd" teams. So like, if you loaded your team with a bunch of support professions that give a decent debuff to mobs, then yes PvM will be a lot easier and it should be that way because you are using multiple toolsets to pwn something. Right now its too generic and easy no matter what tricks the mob has.
    Last edited by MachSchau; Jul 9th, 2010 at 22:31:53.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau
    Actually, valid points, so instead I will introduce a new one.

    Leave things how they are now but make it so the mob, mainly boss mobs, init is at a set high value so that the mob isn't so slow a doc is useless save for a heal or two.
    It will only change "enfo/doc/sold/crat+2dd" to "enfo/2doc/sold/crat+dd".

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by drops View Post
    It will only change "enfo/doc/sold/crat+2dd" to "enfo/2doc/sold/crat+dd".
    Huh? I didn't get past the first two words since you couldn't get past the first two sentences.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    Huh? I didn't get past the first two words since you couldn't get past the first two sentences.
    Hes saying your idea is daft, you just want to change 1 team make up for another that you arent intending.

    If you reduce the effectiveness of init debuffs, you will end up requiring more docs to gain the same effect.
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead." - because Wales just isnt a country

    Chernobyl, providing the freshest bottled water since 1986, for that healthy green glow.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Omutb View Post
    I think the plan is to combine all the red tapes into 1 uber buff, sorry
    And then add resistance to that nanoline for bosses probably


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    And then add resistance to that nanoline for bosses probably
    Yeah, just make every boss mob crat proof.

  15. #15
    Lets remove enfs from the game, with their high HP and great taunting ability it makes PVM too easy.

    :P
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Omutb View Post
    Hes saying your idea is daft, you just want to change 1 team make up for another that you arent intending.

    If you reduce the effectiveness of init debuffs, you will end up requiring more docs to gain the same effect.
    Ok, then I guess my idea is complete suck then. Lets leave crats the way they are, mobs the way they are and not change a damn thing and leave things in easy mode. Lets have people who roll Traders and MPs not be included in any raid because their debuffs suck compared to a crats and hey, if a raid is too hard screw getting more support professions, just get another doc.

    Locking this thread.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ragerayden View Post
    Yeah, just make every boss mob crat proof.
    Oh I wouldn't go that far, but limiting it to either red tapes or malaise seems sensible...


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    Oh I wouldn't go that far, but limiting it to either red tapes or malaise seems sensible...
    Roots: resisted
    Snares: resisted
    Stuns: resisted
    Fears: resisted
    Calms: resisted
    Charms: resisted

    It's not enough for you ? What's your problem really ? It's already 5 nanos with different durations.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    Actually, valid points, so instead I will introduce a new one.

    Leave things how they are now but make it so the mob, mainly boss mobs, init is at a set high value so that the mob isn't so slow a doc is useless save for a heal or two.
    An init debuff threshold would be a typical bandaid solution for what is still a simple problem. As most bandaids are, it's not a complete solution to the problem and it itself creates other problems on it's own.

    One obvious end result of huge init numbers on boss mobs is that init debuffing might go the way of the dodo (or the way of snares, roots,... See Ragerayden's post) as well. Having all possible sources of large init debuffing present is not always possible, resulting in init debuffs being mostly irrelevant again in most of those boss encounters. Further dumbing down the game to a tank, reflects, hpm and dps.

    If more modest numbers were chosen for the init debuff threshold instead of your over the top 6k, other problems would still arise (which we are already seeing with init threshold the LoX instances imo). Because a huge amount of init debuffing is required to get over the threshold, professions that have the most are favored. Depending on where the numbers of the boss mob are set, it is very likely to result in init debuffing without crats being useless and additional init debuffing in the presence of a crat being unneeded overkill.

    Some numbers:
    Crat + doctor + a third random profession with -1k init debuff, debuffing a full def dualwielding mob with 1/1 weapons that has the exact skill required to fire 1/1.
    Code:
    	   	Initiative	Remaining	Mitigated
    Base 1/1	1050		100%		0%
    Muscular M	144		41%		59%
    M of Zeal	-887		21%		79%
    Workplace	-1487		17%		83%
    NART	        -1887		14%		86%
    NIRT	        -2137		13%		87%
    IRT	        -2387		12%		88%
    Random Prof X	-3387		10%		90%
    The additional -1k init debuff of the added profession is irrelevant in the above case, but if there is only a doctor and no crat it suddenly becomes relevant again:
    Code:
    	   	Initiative	Remaining	Mitigated
    Base 1/1	1050		100%		0%
    Muscular M	144		41%		59%
    Random Prof X	-856		21%		79%

    Crat + doctor + a third random profession with -1k init debuff, debuffing a full def dualwielding mob with 1/1 weapons that 2k initiative skill over the requirement to fire 1/1:
    Code:
    			Initiative	Remaining	Mitigated
    2k threshold 1/1	3050		100%		0%
    Muscular M		2144		100%		0%
    M of Zeal		1113		100%		0%
    Workplace		513		62%		38%
    NART			113		40%		60%
    NIRT			-137		33%		67%
    IRT			-387		28%		72%
    Random Prof X		-1387		17%		83%
    And now the same case without a crat:
    Code:
    			Initiative	Remaining	Mitigated
    2k threshold 1/1	3050		100%		0%
    Muscular M		2144		100%		0%
    Random Prof X		1144		100%		0%
    By adding in large init debuffs theshhold to indirectly nerf the huge init debuffing available to crats, the desirability of crats to teams has increased, while that of other professions with lesser init debuffing is very likely to further decrease: if there's no crat present their init debuffing is probably useless or underwhelming; if there is a crat present the init debuffing of the crat combined with other goodies that crats bring in pve is likely to be overkill already.



    To make a long story short: if crats can debuff the initiatives too much within the current game mechanics, don't bandaid it, but fix it by lowering the total amount of initiative debuffs available to crats. Your first idea in this thread was a lot better than that 6k initiatives idea.



    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    For example:

    The boss mob has 6k init, the weapon it uses is mathematically figured so that at certain tiers when it gets init debuffed, the mob does slow down, but not to the point where a doc is virtually unneeded and isn't considered a backup plan if the crat dies, LDs, or afks.
    This is not leaving things as they are, a tiered init debuffing system depending on the type of mob would mean creating entirely new game mechanics to accommodate the overinflated init debuffing in game. Fixing the source of the problem within the existing system (ie: lower the amount of init debuffing available) would still be far easier to implement than overhauling the game mechanics so it compensate for past mistakes.
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 bureaucrat*: Starting 12man, need Enfo, Doc, Keeper, reflects."
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 doctor*: Looking for crat/keep/enf for 12m pst "
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 soldier*: still need doc/enf for 12 man. pst
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] LF enfo , crat , doc and soldier's for ipande / pst [220 doctor]"

  20. #20
    What many people don't seem to get is that debuffing is the MAIN PURPOSE of a bureaucrat.

    I think we all agree that some professions are pretty useless in PvM, for example MP und Trader. But pls rather make those professions more valuable for teams than nerf those profs which have a clearly defined role in PvM atm...

    Upping Inits of bossmobs would be a solution... although I don't know if it's a good one. 6k Init-mobs will REQUIRE crat debuffs then... or are probably only tankable by enf+2docs. What I like about crat debuffs is, that it opens the possibility to tank hard mobs for many classes... not only enf/sol.
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