Space Combat Discussion

[trousers]

I'm considering writing something with the working title of The Gaia Accord.

Some facts:

• Bullets kill people and things.
• Bullets are still sold for RK Weapons
• Bullets are the cheapest ammo type, indicating that are cheap to produce

The idea is that Humans have employed bullets to kill things for tens of thousands of years. I would think that because bullets are very inexpensive, many OT Navy vessels would be armed with projectile weapons.

The problem with a projectile weapon is that once they miss they continue to travel. Depending on location of the battle and the type of projectile which would impact its speed, you run into 2 problems:

Problem 1) The projectile is either fired into a star system, or, fails to achieve escape velocity and is pulled back into a solar system by the system's star. This will result in the projectile possibly colliding with a space station or vessel.

Problem 2) The Projectile escapes the star system and continues to fly. This rogue profile can collide with vessels in shipping lanes between systems or be affected by the gravity of another star and become subject to Problem 1.

The purpose of the Gaia Accord would be a directive issued by the ICC barring Navies of the First Class from outfitting their vessels with projectile weapons which do not serve a limited and specific task. i.e. A capital ship could still deploy traditional nuclear tipped projectile weapons in a limited supply, but could not be equipped with hundreds of kinetic flak cannons to ward off incoming fighters.

My questions for you all:

If Projectile Weapons are illegal, and Plasma dissipates in a vacuum, What type and style of weapons do you think the vessels would have to be retrofitted to?

Discuss!

[Tanisthonus]

Solar-powered, of course. Cheap enough to hand out like candy to fresh immigrants.

[Zeephonz]

lazorz

[Raggy]

Micro Missiles.

[Gorathon]

Torpedoes of old had timing mechanisms to prevent them arming too quickly (I presume). Turning that on its head, what about projectiles that self-destruct after a specified time or range?

[Keldros]

lazorz

I'll go with this. Vacuum allows you to use wavelengths you can't get by with in the atmosphere.

Plus with the advanced tech in the AO universe, I'm pretty sure you can go beyond the dreaded nuclear bomb-pumped X-ray laser, and use something like electron-positron pairs instead of relaxation of an electron population inversion.

Or take the concept over to another force-carrying boson, and use beams of gluon triplets instead of light.

[Gorathon]

as you increase the frequency, of course, you start running in to the same problem #2 that Trousers brought up with projectiles.

[MassDebater]

Torpedoes of old had timing mechanisms to prevent them arming too quickly (I presume). Turning that on its head, what about projectiles that self-destruct after a specified time or range?

Self destruct, into millions of tiny pieces? That sounds worse than one projectile. You need some sort of acid or reaction to reduce the projectiles to tiny tiny prices.

[trousers]

I'll go with this. Vacuum allows you to use wavelengths you can't get by with in the atmosphere.

Plus with the advanced tech in the AO universe, I'm pretty sure you can go beyond the dreaded nuclear bomb-pumped X-ray laser, and use something like electron-positron pairs instead of relaxation of an electron population inversion.

Or take the concept over to another force-carrying boson, and use beams of gluon triplets instead of light.

So this would be more like a Star Trek style phaser weapon rather than a Star Wars style Blaster weapon, correct?

[Ilaliya]

...but could not be equipped with hundreds of kinetic flak cannons to ward off incoming fighters.

That would be so evil, though. I imagine that absent any sort of "magic" shielding, that at these velocities the tiniest piece of debris can puncture a hull. And then you could have pretty much immediate explosive decompression.

I also imagine a pirate or outlaw would take serious advantage of the existence of such an agreement.

[trousers]

That would be so evil, though. I imagine that absent any sort of "magic" shielding, that at these velocities the tiniest piece of debris can puncture a hull. And then you could have pretty much immediate explosive decompression.

I also imagine a pirate or outlaw would take serious advantage of the existence of such an agreement.

Exactly

From my talks with others, vessels could have defenses against such weapons. Such as capital ships having magnetized hulls which could slow incoming projectiles to a speed where the hull thickness can withstand it. Such a defense would simply be unfeasible for a small point defense/offense fighter to equip. Or for civilian vessels to purchase, or too draining for a space station to run at all times.

Pirates, outlaws, or even the Alien Invaders would not respect such laws, but we have yet to figure out what kind of weapons the Alien vessels would be equipped with because of the inconsistencies with lore surrounding the Aliens.

[Zeephonz]

So this would be more like a Star Trek style phaser weapon rather than a Star Wars style Blaster weapon, correct?

Yes, correct.

[Mostadio]

I always figured we'd be using rail guns in the future. Typical ballistic weapons require oxygen burning to fire their projectiles, making them useless in space. Currently, rail guns are limited in use due to the enormous heat melting the rails. The intense cold of space could certainly ameliorate this. With rail guns, you only need a "slug", that is a chunk of metal, to fire unlike bullets that need casings and chemicals to propel them.

[trousers]

I always figured we'd be using rail guns in the future. Typical ballistic weapons require oxygen burning to fire their projectiles, making them useless in space. Currently, rail guns are limited in use due to the enormous heat melting the rails. The intense cold of space could certainly ameliorate this. With rail guns, you only need a "slug", that is a chunk of metal, to fire unlike bullets that need casings and chemicals to propel them.

Railguns still technically fire bullets since a pebble in a slingshot is considered a bullet.

Also, a traditional ballistic cartridge or shell will still fire in space since they self-contain everything they need to fire.

I imagine though, that when comparing a cannon to a Railgun the problem would just be worse with the railgun since they would throw their projectiles faster.

[MassDebater]

So then, some kind of microwave-xray-gamma ray beam, that cooks people nice and good.

What about a projectile that latches onto the side of a ship and bores/blows/works a hole into the ship venting the atmosphere.

[Phixalicious]

Railguns still technically fire bullets since a pebble in a slingshot is considered a bullet.

Also, a traditional ballistic cartridge or shell will still fire in space since they self-contain everything they need to fire.

I imagine though, that when comparing a cannon to a Railgun the problem would just be worse with the railgun since they would throw their projectiles faster.

Except a traditional ballistic cartridge uses detonation of gunpowder, impossible in a vacuum since there's no oxygen to burn.

[Keldros]

Except a traditional ballistic cartridge uses detonation of gunpowder, impossible in a vacuum since there's no oxygen to burn.

Gunpowder contains an oxidizer. Guncotton even integrates the oxidizer into the fuel molecule.

edit: link for guncotton vs gunpowder. Pretty much the beginning of our modern concept of "high explosives".

[Leileena]

Currently, rail guns are limited in use due to the enormous heat melting the rails. The intense cold of space could certainly ameliorate this.

Except for that, despite common misconception trough fictional media, space is not cold. Certainly not around star systems where spaceships are likely to be stationed.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...is/SpaceIsCold

[Galilei]

If you damage a spaceship with any kind of weapon and it explodes as a result, you'll end up with millions of little "bullets" that disperse to every possible direction from the said explosion. So I think it's irrelevant what kind of weapons are used since the end result will most certainly cause huge amount of debris travelling at various speeds - if the shooter does not have the armor to withstand the hits of the debris, he probably dooms himself at the moment he decides to fire those guns (assuming when fights happen at close range).

I'd use proximity triggered nuclear mines/missiles/drones that are deployed to area where enemy most likely will go - you'll be long gone from the area and the enemy has slim to none chance to survive if he gets caught into nuclear blast. Just the EMP pulse from the bomb would probably disable the enemy ship's electrical circuits and shut the whole ship down so you could send boarding parties after the bomb goes off and bring the fight inside the ship where regular bullets could be used.

Then there's the thing called novictum bomb (if I recall correctly from the quests...). Info in Novictum says it could be used to force creatures to fluctuate between dimensions - that sounds pretty bad (though we use this method to summon pocket bosses but I guess it could work the other way too). Imagine weapons that can wipe out ship crews without damaging the ship itself...

I think Arid quests mention that Kyr'ozch ships have shields so you would have to find a way to disable/overload them first before you get to damage the ships.

[Gatester]

MAGNETS!

That or they would be using giant robots that fight with swords in space.

On a more serious note, I believe the majority of conflicts would involve electronic warfare. Weapons as a whole would be less viable, mostly due to the requirements to maintain and utilize more powerful weapons. The entire ship would end up being forced to become some sort of mobile gun/cannon. Ships would be too mobile for most standard projectile weapons and any sort of guiding explosive would be useless without being armed with the same defenses the ships would have as well, otherwise the guided weapons would simply be destroyed by protective systems or even electronic warfare devices.

So in the end I doubt anything other than small, highly-maneuverable ships that are made for dog fights would have any sort of physical weaponry which would also be too small to cause any significant damage (equivalent to our space shuttles in size), while larger ships would rely on hacking or disabling capabilities for combat. Ships meant for bombardment of planet surfaces would have anti-ground weapons only.


Independance Day is a good example I believe, as the main ships had massive anti-ground weapons, shielding to prevent damage from outside sources, and used fighter ships to deal with attackers, scouting, etc. Also it is worth noting that the ships themselves were disabled by a computer virus, a.k.a cyber warfare.