Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

[Bionitrous]

It's unacceptable because you are considering FoB to be in the same league as an LLTS. The crit increase is for 15 seconds out of 2 and a half minutes. This is about every 6th monster or so if you are lucky. This is about 4 attempts with a Support Beam if you are lucky on every sixth MoB. Melee users get parried constantly which Ranged users don't have to deal with. Constantly Parried. A Qlvl200 FoB CAN'T be equipped by even those who have the cheapest FastAttack. Melee users don't have the same amount of special attacks as Ranged users and can't get the 10K shots. If you want to use most of the damaging melee weapons you often have to go Full Agro. FoB at qlvl 200 puts you another 25% PAST Full Agro. You get critted on YOURSELF by the monster CONSTANTLY when running FoB.

You CAN'T put FoB into the equation unless you either increase the Crit duration or reduce the time that FastAttack is locked.

FoB works ok for attacking with Martial Arts because fists are so fast you can stay at full defense. BUT, it is still only 15 seconds out of every 2 and a half minutes. Once again, I repeat: that is only about every sixth mob if you are lucky.

The other point is that in none of this have you considered the effect that the init 'fix' that is coming will have on this whole picture. You are considering this huge Nerf when you already have a Nerf coming. The interaction between the init 'fix' and this Nerf should not have to be evaluated simultaneously. The appropriate thing to do is to wait and see how -800 to inits affects those with 15% scopes once it starts affecting Recharge time and THEN decide what the appropriate measures to take regarding these legacy items is. That's the professional way to go about system design. Get the init change on test ASAP and ask the professionals their opinion. Don't forget Xtreme, the ex-MP professional who uses Martial Arts on his high level MP.

You are also throwing around MoP like it's candy. Why not pop into people's mission and take a look at how many people actually have MoP or the Crat speech active at any given snapshot in time. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean we all have it running in our NCU's at all times. If I'm lucky, I got MoP running a bit less than 1% of my AO career. That's when I'm in high level teams. And one thing high level characters don't need is a more difficult time leveling. The boredom from trying to level is making them all quit.

Cap the crit chance and special cases (like Agent nanos) to break it. You will keep your customers happy. The one thing you continuously seem to do is alienate the customers who are still sticking with you. Having a cap is an equalizer. It affects everyone while still not messing with the way people enjoy the game. None of the 'problems' we are all griping about in this thread would come into play. You would achieve what you want: an absolute maximum amount of crits that can be achieved. You also provide a benefit to those who have the 15% scopes in that they now have options with IP's and NCU's as they have an 8% advantage they don't have to work towards having probably already hit their cap. LLTS owners would be happy as well. Saying this is more 'difficult' should not be an option for you. You are supposed to to the RIGHT thing.

[Cz]

Bionitrous, I (or we) never said I (or we) considered FoB to be in the same league as LLTS.

If fact, I said in my first post today that they are not. I even separated the crit chance with and without FoB in my numbers, simply due to the difference. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

But FoB is of course part of the equation. If it adds 15% crit chance 10% of the time, it's an average 1.5% crit item. And considering the average combat time against non-boss mobs, I'm sure it's running more than 10% of the time spent in combat.

I would also like to add that no, I don't think people run around with these buffs all the time. But also remember that only a few run around with the 15% LLTS. These are about potential numbers, not average numbers for the average Joe.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Originally posted by Cz


I do know Engineers get hit quite a bit by this, but wouldn't it be more logical that they rely on their bot, rather than being killing machines themselves?

LOL =] I'm not an engy but that sure is the best laugh I had all morning. Glad you guys have a good sense of humor =]

Please suggest that the old (E)LLTS be returned to the game, or that VEs begin to drop out to the ql400 level, it's not going to encourage new player to PVP knowing other players have a substantial advantage that cannot be obtained from the game anymore. Since they will be "balanced" I couldn't understand the reason not to have them drop once again.

Think $$$$$

New booster : all about PVP : perceived imbalances

[Bionitrous]

Then stop throwing around numbers like people are constantly running around with 38% crit chance all the time and that this is a travesty. If this were the case, I would agree with you that extreme measures must be taken.

So, you agree that these extreme numbers are just that. Extreme. Can't you see that you are pointing yourself in the direction of the real solution? This time I'll use words right out of your mouth (or keyboard) you are talking about 'potential'. The 'potential' is there to get insane amounts of +crit. That is the problem. You have to address these extreme cases. The proper way to haul in these 'jupiter aligns with Mars' situations by putting a cap on just how high players can get their crit chance. So that even when Jupiter aligns with Mars, the player is still within your defined acceptable limits of critting.

The proposed change only goes to screw with game mechanics. It doesn't achieve your desired goal of limiting crits, but changes how people will be able to enjoy their characters. There are quite a few people who have built characters based on weapons or tactics that they 'enjoy'. You are forcing these people to use IP reset points to potentially change to an attack that just won't be fun for them. You don't have to do this if you simply say, 'you will never be allowed to crit more than once every 4th hit'. Everything stays the same. Nobody complains. You get your crit maximum limited to 25% maximum and we all keep moving along.

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Ityn
LOL =] I'm not an engy but that sure is the best laugh I had all morning. Glad you guys have a good sense of humor =]

Well actually I think the idea is correct! And Im very happy see that FC knows that to
That opens up some very intresting boost/additions to the Engs....


But yeah, sarcasm is a great tool

[DaveDread]

Originally posted by Cz
MAs hit at 1/1 on attack / recharge, and don't even need full agg/def for it. How are ranged users on both speed and comparable crit damage at different agg/def settings?

This can of course be debated to hell and yonder, but the main thing is that ranged users often has additional abilities they can use in combat. NT's have nukes for example. MP's/Crats have pets. They have init/nano/damage debuffs. Many have roots/snares and perhaps the primary, they have range. I could have 100% crit chance, I'll still die if my target is out of range.
The only thing the MA has is a crit advantage, dealing direct, physical damage. A 3% advantage isn't enough to make up for these other abilities (in my opinion of course, perhaps I am biased here. I firmly belive that MA's and Agents should be the crit-the-snot-outta-you professions.)

edit: About agg/def settings with ranged weapons, there are plenty of fast, very well critting weapons. Ithaca Ki-8 Snakemaster is perhaps the most common one. This baby is faster then MA fists, crits harder and has 2 specials. Someone wielding this with maxed ranged init, a few special items and a ranged init buff will hit 1/1 on appx 70-75% agg/def while wearing a +15% scope.

Originally posted by Cz

I guess those which it is unacceptable for are primarily the Enforcers and melee Adventurers, right? Why is it unacceptable? Would these numbers be acceptable if ranged users had only the TS-VE available?
(No, that is not another suggestion for removing the LLTS. I'm just asking questions to learn more from you people. )

I don't see many Enforcers/Adv's with scopes on. The weapons of choice seems to do better with more inits then with more crit%. If however you introduce a fast, critreliant 1HB/1HE weapon, they no longer have the option to equip a scope and pay the "agg-def-price" for more crits. Just thinking ahead here.

Primarily this hits other professions using MA. Most common ones being Docs, Traders, MP's and Engineers. Now, the MA fist is a critreliant weapon. Here is the main problem, cause these guys cannot in any way keep up damagewise with a ranged profession, even if the ranged dewd wields a 8% VE.

Originally posted by Cz

I do know Engineers get hit quite a bit by this, but wouldn't it be more logical that they rely on their bot, rather than being killing machines themselves?

The profession that is in the worst shape atm is the Engie. With the new and improved bosses, I have yet to see a pet actually hit one. The bots are slow, don't crit, get stuck and generally run in the wrong direction. This is better answered by engies of course, but unless you make their bots pretty darn good the engie himself needs to be the main damagedealer of the two to be useful in a team. I have yet to see an engie bot outdamaging an engineer.



EDIT: Ooops, so much for my correction, I left out TTS as well lol. Not sure if it's +4% crit should be added to all or only to ranged. If it's only added to ranged, then every ranged profession would have a possible better critchance then an MA.

[Cz]

Originally posted by Ityn
LOL =] I'm not an engy but that sure is the best laugh I had all morning. Glad you guys have a good sense of humor =]

You mean you disagree?

Anyhow, I have to take care of some other stuff, so I won't be able to follow the discussion and reply very much right now. Just thought I'd mention it, to avoid the screams of "oh yeah, now you can't answer anymore!".

[Krabbus]

This is a serious post from an engineer using MA, I have a 8% LLTS at the moment I love it. I can agree on this "fix" if it was complete. The way it have been suggested both by players and Gaute is way from complete.

Martial Artist
They are specialized at melee and weapons that is close to this category (bows, and other ma weapons), they are also very good to make a critical hit and have nanolines for this. They also have nanolines to teach other people to make a critical hit. The problem is, that MAs can't teach ranged users how to make a critical hit, only close combat professions - this is logical. So the solution here is to implement a huge ranged init penalty at the critnanos for others (2%, 4% and 7%)

Agents
This professions is specialized in ranged and are very good to concentrate for a few seconds to make a good critical hit. They also can teach other to make a critical hit by 4% (TTS) but they only know how to use ranged weapons, so it's impossible for agents to teach melee users. So the solution here is to implement a huge melee/phys init penalty on TTS.

Crats
Crats is a profession that covers most areas, they have a critical speech that helps other profession to make a critical hit. Crats aren't specialized and therefor will this speech affect every person beeing around.


Conclusion
This is all logical, you can't only do this "fix" half way, you have to follow the pattern as you mentioned in point 4. MA's can never learn ranged weapons users how to make a critical hit when he isn't specialized in using weapons and other way around for agents. One thing, is to make cratspeech and MAs crit(other) to stack to balance it out.
The "fix" Gaute mention will only affect melee users, and ranged users will be unaffected - I guess this wasn't the intention, or was it? Below is a list over the chance for critical hit:

Martial Artists:
3% + 22% (self buff) + 7% (crat speech) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 36%
With FoB QL150: 51%

Non-MAs using close combat:
3% + 7% (MoP) + 7% (crat speech) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 21%
With FoB QL130: 34%

Non-MAs using ranged:
3% + 7% (crat speech) + 15% (LLTS) + 4% (TTS) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 33% (or 26% using best TS-VE instead of LLTS)

For me this will be the best balance between melee users and ranged users. You also have to remember that a FoB only give a crit chance withing 20-25 seconds at max, which is 2% crit over 3 minutes (15% crit for 25 seconds). By the way, FoB doesn't increase phys init, only melee init... what does non-MAs using physinit have?


Gaute, and Cz, doesn't this seem logical? You can't do this "fix" half way, you have to comlete it to make all critical units to follow the pattern you suggested in point 4.

Edit: Added cratspeech for MAs, since they are supposed to have the best chance to make a critical hit. Added TTS for ranged users. My post is based on that critspeech is going to stack with MA's mark lines.

Krabbus - Level 142 MA Engineer

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
You don't have to do this if you simply say, 'you will never be allowed to crit more than once every 4th hit'. Everything stays the same. Nobody complains. You get your crit maximum limited to 25% maximum and we all keep moving along.

Yepp... the number that the devs thinks is a propper crit % would be very intresting to know.


aka... Cz asking us "The devs thinks that xx % is the maximum the game system would accomodate. What should we do to get there?"

That would prob start a constructive discusion.... (well apart from the "don't nerf us" people)

[Cz]

Great post, Krabbus.

I want to see other players' comment on it though, before I look too much into it myself. Note that you still have ranged users very close to MAs, which was one of DaveDread's concerns.

Leaving you guys to it for now. I'll be back later.

[Cz]

Originally posted by Dhurdahl
aka... Cz asking us "The devs thinks that xx % is the maximum the game system would accomodate. What should we do to get there?"

That would prob start a constructive discusion.... (well apart from the "don't nerf us" people)

When I can get hold of Gaute between meetings, I'll ask him.

[______________DocNec]

Originally posted by Cz
Ok, pulling out only the corrected numbers from DaveDread:

I do know Engineers get hit quite a bit by this, but wouldn't it be more logical that they rely on their bot, rather than being killing machines themselves?

ROFL! That's halarious! After that we'll use some traders to charm the rest of the mobs.

Coming from the company that made the game and then stated Advens had roots.

Engy's don't use bots later on. They can't keep up, they get lost, and you spend more time looking for them then they spend fighting at the pace you set post 150.

...in a perfect world

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Originally posted by Cz

You mean you disagree?

Anyhow, I have to take care of some other stuff, so I won't be able to follow the discussion and reply very much right now. Just thought I'd mention it, to avoid the screams of "oh yeah, now you can't answer anymore!".

I think it would be a great idea if it worked =] This isn't a thread about the use(les)(ful)ness of pets, but pets are only good for patient soloing.

I thought it was funny because it's so true, they should, but of course they can't. There in lies the gag.

[DaveDread]

Krabbus, methinks your right.

Dunno how to add in TTS in there, but crats are even rarer then 15% scopes.

Yes, this seems like the best option.

[_____________Rebbeca]

Not only are crats rare but they don't have a crit buff.. it's a crit speech. Which means unless you are close to me when it pulses out every 20 sec you don't get any bonus to crit. This is fine in missions, but its not like anybody is asking us to follow them around in a pvp zone to keep the speech on them

[______________Pho-Ku]

Are the designers of anarchy online actually playing the game?
Are they aware of what it looks like out there? How things are working out with todays current version of the game?
OR, are they making tests on a test server? with 2 people and a mob?

The last few nerfs I must say have been really wierd, and feels like they come from someone who's not playing the game 24/7 and are aware of the real problems in game today. more like from someone who draw conclusions from "calculations", not from practice.

[Elbo]

Originally posted by Cz
I do know Engineers get hit quite a bit by this, but wouldn't it be more logical that they rely on their bot, rather than being killing machines themselves?

I can just stand there with full defense on and get agro'd by a mob that is getting hit by my bot.

So...my "tank" which can't hold agro should wack away at the tree (Real Mean Enforcer) while I take a few pot shots at it with my gun and expect my bot to still hold agro?

I give you FULL permission to take my bot for a walk in a 195ish mission. Watch some TV and 2.5 hours later you'll be done.

I used to go around and get a doc buff and a essence just to stick my head around the corner and shoot at mobs JUST so I could survive the first 5 hits on me.

Why not give the slayers the same agression/evades and attack and armor as a Real Mean Torpedo/enforcer type to start with at the 'base'. Then get the trimmers to work a bit better (agro) and we'll talk again. My QL200 guardian slayer can go down from being attacked by 1 RM Enforcer if I don't heal it.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Krabbus
[BMartial Artists:
3% + 22% (self buff) + 7% (crat speech) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 36%
With FoB QL150: 51%

Non-MAs using close combat:
3% + 7% (MoP) + 7% (crat speech) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 21%
With FoB QL130: 34%

Non-MAs using ranged:
3% + 7% (crat speech) + 15% (LLTS) + 4% (misc, e.g 2 x GoC)
Total: 29% (or 22% using best TS-VE instead of LLTS) [/B]

Krabbus, good post but these numbers are horribly wrong.

Reason being Assasins Focus (7% Crit Speech) doesn't even stack with the 2% MA Crit Buff. The Crat Crit speeches don't stack with UVC or any other MA Crit buff.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


Krabbus, good post but these numbers are horribly wrong.

Reason being Assasins Focus (7% Crit Speech) doesn't even stack with the 2% MA Crit Buff. The Crat Crit speeches don't stack with UVC or any other MA Crit buff.

Yes, I know that, but I want the critspeech to stack with MA Crit to balance the critical chance between MAs, Melee and Ranged users... If critspeech doesn't benefit MAs will ranged users with 15% scope have higher chance to make a critical hit, that's very wrong, isn't it?

This way will non-MAs and Ranged users be more equal. To balance it even more between non-MAs and Ranged users we can increase the MA critnano(other) to be 12% to equal 8% scope (VE) and 4% TTS.

For me it seems this is the best way to do it, also upping MA's critnano (others) a bit to balance it even more. Noted that I forgot TTS for ranged users in the calculation...

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Cz
Finally got through the thread. Now for some comments.


FoB making you open to crits
When you team, which most people do at high levels - high levels being when people can get these extreme crit chances - all the time, you losing evades is not so much of a problem as when you solo.

Have a Soldier pull off an alpha strike, or an Agent get in a nice Aimed Shot, and you won't have the mob hitting at you anyway; hence the evades going down means very little in this situation. And this is a situation which has to be considered.


Hunting greens and yellows at level 190
I have been told by many high level players that those level 190 mobs get hunted from 120 to 200, so it seems people can kill those "greens and yellows" when they are deep deep red too.

I guess we could use a better scaling on the toughness or the reward (XP especially) on the mob levels though.

Some remarks:

1. I think the bottomline of the issue is FC is looking at ways to make levelling slower.

The players are more concerned with profession balance. Both in pvm and pvp. Something FC is COMPLETELY, UTTERLY overlooking with the suggestions they have made so far.

Sure maybe FoB isn't that bad in pvm fighting greens and yellows as mobs go down fast enough.

Pretty sure that at level 120 against a 190 mob it means certain death for about everyone to use that baby though unless you have really, really good healers in yr team.

Now in pvp that's a whole different issue... so you use fob making yrself a sitting duck to get critted upon while someone picks you off from a nice range?

2. I'm using the damage dumper to run tests on what kind of damage I can expect after losing my crit scope. I haven't done enough tests yet to make a full report but so far it seems that wo a scope, I a lvl 197ma
* will be outdamaged by a 174 trader
* will do about the same damage as a 160 something fixer and agent
* neither of these three having an old llts btw.

3. yes 6 level 120 players manage to run 190 missions. However they frequently die and it isn't as if they waltz through them. Do you mean from now on they will need a full team of level 120s to fight a single lvl 120 mob?

Just make FoB non-ma and non-ranged weapon. Don't change anything else.

If this goes in like this I won't need a second to decide to cancel my account.

/hayake, 197 ma. (yes, I use a 14% llts. No I have never ever even considered using FoB)