Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

[Elbo]

Originally posted by Valroshe



For you to say this must mean that you do not have one, so of course you want them nerfed, well there are ALOT more of us that do have them so scream nerf somewhere else!!

Amen.

I for one carefully horded and kept my scopes and doled them out to my alts slowly as I leveled them up. I'll NEVER part with them as I consider them to valuable. In effect by doing this funcom has kept me going as I would hate to shut down my account and in a few months lose all my stuff I have missioned and saved and traded for that I consider the "preminum" stuff in the game. What nano breed would give up a +20 professors vest unless he was leaving the game or had a spare one. NONE.

I feel the very very small minority who wants to lower the level of LLTS's to a max of 8% might as well give it up. You must have missed that part about "MASSIVE negative feedback".

Fix engineers. Pathetic breed that we are. You (funcom) force us to go MA after a certain point because its the only decent way you can damage a mob over time without crits. Give us a quest to make this item make it title based if you want. Something to build!!! (BTW WHERE ARE THE SUICIDE BOTS??)

yaya..blahblah.. I got to go back to work.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Valroshe
For you to say this must mean that you do not have one, so of course you want them nerfed, well there are ALOT more of us that do have them so scream nerf somewhere else!!

Pretty Bold statment don't you think considering you have NO idea what items I use, have or carry around with me. And you are basing this on what? Thin Air?

Do me a favor and prove your ignorance. What items do I use?

This is a public forum. I'll post what I want when I want whenever I want so long as it doesn't violate the Rules of Conduct (which I haven't). You can ask me to leave all day long, but you and what army is going to censor me?

Exactly. It isn't going to happen. So you can either make reasonable statments and give me GOOD reasons why it shouldn't be nerfed (I havent heard a good reason yet), or you can continue to make blatant assumptions and prove yourself to be naive over and over again.

It's your choice.

[Flapsie]

Make the LLTS NT only and make it so a NT can't use it if using any other weapon than nanos

That is the easiest way to both do something for the NT's and nerf LLTS off and away lol

[Cheetra]

Going to have to pick this apart as Guate has some serious misunderstandings about how the game actually plays.

Originally posted by Cz
Hi everybody. Word from Gaute on criticals and the LLTS.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear player of AO.


The ability to increase your chance of getting a critical in combat is an integral part of the game. It is something we want, and we do not frown upon it. Our problem is that too many of the items that increase your critical chance actually stack. (Add up). As the system is today you can have the following things stack with little or no penalty:
1. Base Critical Chance (3%)
2. Flurry of Blows (20% critical increase at QL 200)

First of the item in question for those not familiar:

Flurry of Blows
[UNIQUE]

Slot utils 1, utils 2, utils 3
QL 200
Requirements fast attack >= 1000
Effects lock self aggdef 2mins 30secs

Description This 'booster' should be placed in the utility inventory slots, and used when you want to hit very fast with your melee weapons! It boosts Aggressive-Defensive and Close Combat (melee) Initiative for 20 seconds - plus 5 percent of a second per Quality Level of the booster. It locks the Fast Attack skill for 2 and a half minutes before it can be used again. The amount boosted varies with the Quality Level of the Booster.

-1) there is no modify self crit +20% listed in the item data base, so we must assume the number is correct.

-2) there is another unlisted effect: when you active FoB YOU get critted on as your defense drops like a stone.

-3) 1000 Fast Attack: approx skill cap for title level 6 for an MA on Fast attack = 656 to 671 for an opifex ( FA is based on 60% agi and 40% sense the stats opifex have the highest caps in ).

-4) Fully implanted: +207 fast attack skill ( approx I'm not considering Jobe or refined as they are not really going to make a difference )

This requires:
a) shining left hand
b) bright right hand
c) faded right arm

-5) Realistic nano program buffs available: Fast Attack Expcertise +20 to an MA, another +30 if self casting FFoK

-6) Skill req must be met at time of use: ie you MUST have 1000 fast attack to make the item work at all.

Grand Total: approx 898 MAX in skill ( 928 if able to cast FFoK ), possible ability of an MA using a +20 to crit FoB? NONE.

Additionally:

UVC casting Req's:
psy mod 777
time & space 777
sense imp 777

title 6 caps for those skills for an opifex MA are approx:

psy mod: 661 ( 116 short for cast )
Time & Space: 664 ( 113 short for cast )
sense imp: 662 ( 115 shourt for cast )

Taking into account the 2 to 3 points gained from int boost and the 20 points from general expert buffs the number look like this:

( these number are based off my title level 5 MA opifex with breed capped stats and title capped skills )

Psy Mod: short 94
Time & Space: short 90
Sense Imp: short 92

This of course means you must implant or have a pocket MP around to execute UVC at all.

In order to do this you will need to use the following implat cluster locations ( assuming ql 200 implants here ):
*1) shining head
*2) bright eye
*3) BRIGHT RIGHT HAND
*4) faded chest
*5) faded ear
*6) faded eye

without the bright right hand cluster being used to increase nano skills you end up with at least one skill 48 to 50 points short of casting UVC.

That also means the already non-existant chance of using a ql 200 +20 crit FoB goes from being short 102 to being short 162 points ( 132 short for a FFoK casting MA )

MEANING: it is not possible to use UVC with a +20 to crit FoB even IF a MA could use a +20 FoB in the first place.

3. The old "Low Light Targeting Scopes" (15% at QL 200)

Just so we are clear on what a LLTS really is:

Extreme Low Light Targeting Scope

Slot hud 3
QL 200
Requirements electrical eng >= 801
weapon smithing >= 651

Effects
change vision
modify self aimed shot 300
modify self critical chance 15
modify self melee init -800
modify self physical init -800
modify self ranged init -800
modify self weapon range 45

Description This Low Light Targeting Scope not only adds a nice bonus to your range, it also adds a bonus to your chance of hitting a vital part when you shoot. NOTE: Using this requires you to use more time for each shot, and thus increasing chances of getting a critical. It works at close quarters too, but is not recommended.

Let's look at this:
LLTS is not effected by over equping, not even % based reductions in it's +% crit.

A ql LLTS is responalbe equipable by any profession in the title level 5 range with implants and meastro's, as the LLTS being over equiped has no bearing on it's function.

4. Self Only MA Crit Buff (24%) or Crat Speech Crit Buff (11%) at high levels.

See above on UVC req's.

Summing this together you get 62% for Martiial Artist and 49% for everyone else. This is WAY-WAY too high for the system to handle without changes.

Good thing it can't actually happen then isn't it? The only 2 professions that get a Fast Attack buff and BOTH are (suppsed to be ) self only buffs:

Adventures the best for them is:

Division of the Winds
a QL 169 which requires SI of 787, PM of 787 MIN level of 195 AND is adveturer only

modify self fast attack 25

( it does a lot more then just that too )

and Martial Artists ( ??? ) the best ( and only ) for them is:

Four Fists of Kali
a QL 169 which requires PM 782 SI 782 AND is MA only ( okay right now it's not, but that's because it's bugged )

Effects modify target fast attack 30


Now if Fast Attack was a green skill for Adventures they might be able to use a ql 200 FoB, BUT it's not, it's the same color skill for MA's and adventure's MEANING neither profession will ever be able to use a +20% crit FoB.

Fast Attack is a light blue for enfrocers ( NOT green ), so it's possible a +20% to crit FoB might be usable to an enforcer, but highly doubtful, specially as their aren't a whole heck of a lot of opifex enforcers to start with, and you'd need to be in all likely hood. Could we get some comment from enforcers for max numbers for title 6 fast attack with full implants?



What does this mean?

The +20% to crit FoB is an item that isn't usable by the MA profession, the one your sighting is making the change needed in the first place, and likely isn't useable by ANY profession PERIOD.

Now we take full responsibility for it being this way. I apologize that we have to change the rules, but this is the nature of an MMO (sadly). The number of variables are infinite. Anyway, If I as the game-director were to allow this to go on unchanged it would mean that I would have to increase difficulty of ALL monsters in the game to balance the additional lethal powers of the players. Everyone would have a much harder time.

Well as I've just shown it's not possible all, let's just call the whole thing off shall we?

We indicated in a discussion with you that we would like to change the existing Low Light Targeting Scopes to be similar to the new ones. This received MASSIVE negative feedback. Thus, we listen to you! We will not do it that way.

I have pondered this for some time, and instead of doing a targeted "nerf" against the LLTS, we should instead change all the critical increase effects so that they do not stack in an unintended way. For instance, Low Light Targeting Scope is something that should be used for ranged combat. Self only MA Crit buffs are something that should not be used with shotguns and so on. This was their INTENTION, the way they were described and perceived by most players. I have thus the following suggestion:

1. Give "Flurry of Blows" and "Eye of the Hunter" (Adv only version of FoB) a massive decrease on Long Range Initative. This way there will be no adding up with ranged weapons critical increase items or nanos. (It still adds up with Bureaucrat Speeches or Martial Artist nanos.)

I have no issue with this. But i think a simpler solution is just make FoB unsuable by MA's ( and i don't think that is going to break any one's heart either ).

2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).

This is do have a problem with, namely the "self crit buffs" part. If this applies to MA self crit buffs it should apply to MA -other- crit buffs also or you are effectively giving away the signature ability of MA's to ranged users. If this change occurs as Fc wants it too, the entire Mark line should go melee fighters only.

If they listen to some of the suggestion in this post, there is no balance reason to change it at all, OR the LLTS ( beyond putting it back in game ).

3. Give Low Light Targeting Scopes a massive Physical Prowess - and Close Combat Initiative decrease. At the same time decrease the Initative Penalty on ranged combat initiative in all targeting scopes! (it should be there because targeting through a scope is slower - it is logical.) but it will be better for existing players using ranged combat!

Just make FoB = NOT MA, and make the change to FoB stated, that would give FC a leg to stand on in the "melees do more damage" promise, not much of one, but a leg non-the-less. Besides this would allow melees ( even those non-professional MA's ) the chance to crit like an MA for the short period of time with then changes to FoB ( the +20% to crit is STILL way off base but they may end up with a max possible of a +16% ish FoB being usable ).

4. Change all other existing critical increase items and nanos to follow this pattern.

ALL as in ALL as in MA's Mark line getting a nasty ranged init penalty?

Or is that all as in, what where we feel like? ( including VE's? Yes? No? )

If we do it this way most people (hopefully) will see their interaction with the critical system change in a more logical way! (Targeting scopes for ranged combat, Martial Artist for his special abilities and so on). All people having an existing LLTS will be compensated.


Yours truly,


Gaute Godager
AO Game Director.

FC doesn't even understand the ability / in-ability to equip an item, counting an item into this equation that can't even be used is just plain silly, and it's that item +MA self crits that is the problem, namely FoB which according to FC is what adds +20 to crit ( even though a MA can't actually use one that would do that much ), why not just resrict MA's from using the FoB at all?

By simply making FoB Non-MA you solve this whole situation without having mess over every other profession, it would in fact HELP some of the other professions like engie, forcer, adv's to do the change to FoB that makes it actually usable as a ql 200 item ( and has the ranged init debuff ), by giving them something they can use for better short term damage, IF the negative effect on defense is reduced or removed. As FoB stands right you folks at FC are seriously overrating it's up side verse it's down side.

And what manner of compenstation are we talking about for old llts users? ( assuming you folks don't listen to the girl actualy posting the numbers that for some reason the DEV team isn't looking at ).

Leave the scope alone, address the real issue, if infact an ma having a ( theoritical ) chance of 62% is the real issue.

By just changing FoB you changing the way FoB works you can solve this whole issue, do it for every one BUT -professional- ma's and that's workable, and I as an MA have no issue with not being able to use FoB. I don't really need a short term to crit buff, and i don't consider it a balance issue if once every 2.5 minutes a non-MA close combat profession can crit a wee bit better then i can all the time. There are no balance issues leaving MA's mark line alone if this is the only thing changed. There are no real balance issues making MA self crits less useful with ranged init based weapons, if you put crossbows on physical init

This idea of rewriting the entire crit system though is not a good one, are out of beta here aren't we??

[______________Jypsie]

The problem is not MA's critting too much, but everyone.

And some of you guys need to read a bit better. Gaute said the MA buff ->or<- Crat Speech, not both. And the Speech 7%+ TTS 4% is 11%. So it was probably in the equation, but the explanation was written incorrectly.

[Bionitrous]

- Does he realize that no profession in the game can use a qlvl200 FoB?

- Does he realize that using a FoB give you an increase for a measly 20 SECONDS while openining yourself up to getting shredded apart and then being LOCKED for another 2 minutes and 10 seconds?

- Has he considered letting the init fix go in FIRST and THEN evaluating the effect that -800 to inits on your RECHARGE as well as Attack will have to the game before screwing over people he probably doesn't intend to screw over?

Flurry of blows obviously shouldn't be used with Ranged Weapons. There's a tag in the database supposedly preventing this from happening. Fix that. Then patch in the change to inits and evaluate.

THEN decide what's the next step to take.

What we are talking about here is NOT causing people to quit the game. Or is this some more god damned PvP bull *** that's being dumped on the general playerbase again?

[Healios]

Change is too radical why not just cap the MAX crit % percentage %

Gaute & CZ:

After reading the entire thread I think the change is a bit too radical. It hurts some classes. MA engineers, well OK. The other danger is creating some unforseen changes in game play. Not to mention the hassle for all the players as they scramble to reconfigure everything.

Why not just cap the MAX crit % percentage %. If 69% is too much why not just cap it at 42% or something. Or perhaps in order not to thumb the MA's allow them to have a higher cap.

This could be tied to level, so that some genius doesn't overequip himself with a QL200 level scope at level 15 :P. Probably not possible anymore but who knows. If it can be done, it will be done. If those kind of players leave the game, then hey, you are doing the rest of us a service!

In other words, you can load up as much equipment, of whatever type you like. If you reach a certain threshold for your level you won't get anymore benefit. I wouldn't cap it too low

... Easy to code ... easy to take out or change (if the villagers come with burning brands) ... less impact on player base

Personally I have an old LLTS only 3% but hey, it's easy to put on and worth a few crds, I would hate to see it lose its value.

I tried using an FoB with ranged weapons (BBI Faithful) and I couldn't get it to work.

[DaveDread]

No, TTS was omitted completely. As is the Adv Sabre morph. The 11% crat buff Gaute mentioned is a crit debuff, the actual crat crit buff is 7% and does not stack with any MA crit nanos, self or other.

Personally, I don't care that he got some numbers wrong. I prefer him thinking about the game from a theoretical point of view rather then running BS missions with a stopwatch and checking peoples damage or whatever. But if a complete redesign of the crit system is coming up, we need this new system to work up to spec. We can't have ranged professions outdamaging melee (NT's are a special case). We can't utterly mess up non-MA professions using MA. We can't let MA's have only one way of ranged damage (bows) that is so crappy as it currently is.

Read Hayakes post again, he sums it up excellently (thou a bit harsh).

[Jayde]

Can actually get 5% more crit than Guate mention, BTW... 1% from Grinning Hunter, and 4% from Take the Shot--which both stack with existing lines. =)

That put his figures of:
"Summing this together you get 62% for Martiial Artist and 49%"

...to 67% and 54% respectively. While I don't believe this global nerf is the way to go, I do believe this is way too high of a rate. It most other RPGs and MMORPGs, "critical hits" are semi-rare. In AO, the ideal situation can provide *more* critical hits than normal hits for any class! (Sure, getting all the item/buffs synced up may be impractical--however, one must assume that there are a certain percentage of "power-gamers" out there that WILL do it, and WILL use it to their serious advantage.)

While crit chance should be able to be raised, I think the high-end stuff is a bit overpowered.

HOWEVER, the solution cannot be a global nerf!! What about the people using 4 crit scopes, Mark of Risk, and maybe a low-level FoB? Certainly that isn't overpowered. I use a 4 crit scope and Grinning Hunter, being a pistol advent...can't really use FoB, and I occasionally get a Mark of Danger or crat buff every once and a while... But generally speaking I would not consider this typical setup overpowered at all.

That is a typical Funcom move, taking the easiest way out of the problem instead of finding a creative solution which targets the source of the issue.

-Jayde

[Bionitrous]

Simplest thing is a global crit cap at 33% or so that can be modified by the Agent's self-only nanos for a short period of time. Don't change a damn thing except state that at MOST you will crit one out of 3 if you are an MA. Everybody else will be less and the gutter trash as in Jayde's example will not be affected. (And I ain't calling you gutter trash Jayde. You just provided the perfect example of a 'normal hardworking' AO player who has done nothing to deserve getting screwed by this. =) )

Remember the original reflect Nerf?

We got these new things:

- MaxReflectMelee 17
- ReflectMelee 17

So just have MaxCritChance set to 33 and let people continue to enjoy the game while getting the result you are looking for. AND not screwing all the people I think you haven't considered.

Just let the Agent 100% Crit Buffs be the only buff to be able to break the 33% cap.

Obviously, if you are critting 2/3's of the time they ain't 'critical' anymore, it becomes somewhat 'the norm' and you remark on when you don't crit. The solution is to make a realistic absolute maximum that is easy for the high level MA to achieve and easy for those with LLTS to achieve, but can NEVER be reached by the 'normal' player. Thus you Nerf your intended Nerf-targets and leave the normal guy alone for once.

AND I'll say it again. FoB don't work with Guns.

[Vdpmeat]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
...Everybody else will be less and the gutter trash as in Jayde's example will not be affected.

[georg]

A good post by gaute, but only if the vision enhancer can be used by all the classes , also ma's. (it enhancers your err 'vision').

The flurry needs some major loving, and engineers as usual.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Originally posted by Cz

I don't think there's any plans on letting them drop again, but I'll bring it up as a suggestion.

I think it would be a good idea if it did drop again. There is lots of other uber-l00t that makes classes distinct, and from a PVP aspect it's very unbalancing for some to have these and others to have no reasonable way of getting one. I'm sure since the booster pack is 90% about PVP, having these perceived imbalances in the game won't enhance sales.

Since the solution to fix Crit imbalances in PVM is to nurf everyone but scope holders, that means the old scopes will now be balanced for the game, and there should be no reason not to re-introduce them.

[Val]

Since we are really getting into what he said in his equation then we might as well add that he also forgot the stacking +2% from wearing 2 globes of Clarity

Oh and Lucid I don't really care what you have equipt, if your screaming Nerf Scopes it can only be because you don't have anything over 8% because noone in thier right mind that has a 15% would be screaming nerf since these are such treasured items.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Valroshe
Oh and Lucid I don't really care what you have equipt, if your screaming Nerf Scopes it can only be because you don't have anything over 8% because noone in thier right mind that has a 15% would be screaming nerf since these are such treasured items.

Really? And you are making this assumption based on what? Just because I want a fair game, that automatically means I don't have the item?

Maybe you should read up, i've posted about nerfing myself (i.e. Correcting the Recharge of Inits) plenty of times. Theres 2 things that I want. Things to work as intended and a level playing field.

And If I were to say I have a 13% LLTS, would that throw a wrench right into your works?

Keep going. Making assumptions based on thin air is just making you look stupid.

[______________Hayake]

Btw in so far as the comment:
'due to the MASSIVE negative feedback on our original plan...'

you come up with an even worse?

/me thinks when provided with the two choices between this and the original plan about everyone (well except traders with a llts ofcourse, the jackpot winners in this new plan) will prefer the old one.

[Mercatura]

Heh the best solution would be to delete LLTS, hand those people a new scope version twice its QL and forget about all the other BS changes. The init change is going to make scopes far less useful in general anyways.

I love how their game director pulls out those numbers (and doesn't get even them all right) the 5 people in the game who have gotten that crit rate for 20 seconds must be so uber they're ruining everything

Real numbers
24% crit buff: only 1/6th of the playerbase, only self buffed at title6.
>8% scopes: less than 1/100th of the playerbase, only by burning a lot of IP is it possible at lower levels, usually only 15% after title5 without giving up a crucial part of your character build.
4% crit buff: only 1 class, usually not castable in useful sense until title4 at least
7% speech: doesn't stack with anything, title5 I think.
FOB: only for a small part of the time, no one wears the highest version
Critmod items: almost all are 1% and usually "rare" if they are useful. Agent hood is one of the few exceptions, and its not 2% until higher levels.

The real playerbase is sometimes 7% from mop and some with up to 8% from a scope, around title4-5 or so. Oh yeah you'd have to uberize the mobs uhuh lol

The real reason we all do 190ish missions is that we are capped, the items are capped (new armor hahahah) and the mobs start going nuts above that. They are killable to a certain point, but such a complete waste of time. The xp curve is nuts, of course we're going to use those mission rewards.

PS Lucid, you still trust FC's intentions? lmao

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

BTW when is this 11% crat crit speech coming?

[___________Firedrake]

I can only hope that Gaute actually bothers to read these responses and realizes the players seem to have a far better understanding of this game than he does. Looking at all the feedback, I'd have to say that the best solution would seem to be a cap on crits. That way they can let scopes drop again and put other items/buffs in the game and not worry about crits getting higher than they want them to be. Talking to folks about this I think think this nerf might be the last straw for many folks. They had better not just nerf LLTS, but provide a decent alternative.

And Valroshe, where you failed in your logic was in assuming Lucid to be in his right mind when he endorsed nerfing scopes.


And for the record, nerfs bite

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by Chronita


true, so perhaps they should adjust the crit amount per ql a bit, or lower the equip reqs some. i dunno, just trying think of something here that will keep non-MA melee users happy. . .

Agreed. I was going to say the same thing but since I’m only 1/2 way through the thread, I didn't want to repeat it.

I would suggest FoB be given a static 10% Crit chance at QL 200 so less by QL. Maybe a QL 150 will have 8% or so. I would also let FoB keep the 20% additional crit as long as it lasts only 20 secs etc. Give it high negative ranged inits and reduce it's reqs 5%. I think it would give Melees a "logical" crit alternative.