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Thread: Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Gaute's word on LLTS and criticals

    Hi everybody. Word from Gaute on criticals and the LLTS.

    Dear player of AO.


    The ability to increase your chance of getting a critical in combat is an integral part of the game. It is something we want, and we do not frown upon it. Our problem is that too many of the items that increase your critical chance actually stack. (Add up). As the system is today you can have the following things stack with little or no penalty:
    1. Base Critical Chance (3%)
    2. Flurry of Blows (20% critical increase at QL 200)
    3. The old "Low Light Targeting Scopes" (15% at QL 200)
    4. Self Only MA Crit Buff (24%) or Crat Speech Crit Buff (7%) at high levels.

    Summing this together you get 62% for Martiial Artist and 45% for everyone else. This is WAY-WAY too high for the system to handle without changes.

    Now we take full responsibility for it being this way. I apologize that we have to change the rules, but this is the nature of an MMO (sadly). The number of variables are infinite. Anyway, If I as the game-director were to allow this to go on unchanged it would mean that I would have to increase difficulty of ALL monsters in the game to balance the additional lethal powers of the players. Everyone would have a much harder time.

    We indicated in a discussion with you that we would like to change the existing Low Light Targeting Scopes to be similar to the new ones. This received MASSIVE negative feedback. Thus, we listen to you! We will not do it that way.

    I have pondered this for some time, and instead of doing a targeted "nerf" against the LLTS, we should instead change all the critical increase effects so that they do not stack in an unintended way. For instance, Low Light Targeting Scope is something that should be used for ranged combat. Self only MA Crit buffs are something that should not be used with shotguns and so on. This was their INTENTION, the way they were described and perceived by most players. I have thus the following suggestion:

    1. Give "Flurry of Blows" and "Eye of the Hunter" (Adv only version of FoB) a massive decrease on Long Range Initative. This way there will be no adding up with ranged weapons critical increase items or nanos. (It still adds up with Bureaucrat Speeches or Martial Artist nanos.)
    2. Give Martial Artists Self Crit buffs a massive decrease on Long Range Initiative. (This does not affect bows, as they use Physical Prowess Initiative - same as the martial arts attack).
    3. Give Low Light Targeting Scopes a massive Physical Prowess - and Close Combat Initiative decrease. At the same time decrease the Initative Penalty on ranged combat initiative in all targeting scopes! (it should be there because targeting through a scope is slower - it is logical.) but it will be better for existing players using ranged combat!
    4. Change all other existing critical increase items and nanos to follow this pattern.

    If we do it this way most people (hopefully) will see their interaction with the critical system change in a more logical way! (Targeting scopes for ranged combat, Martial Artist for his special abilities and so on). All people having an existing LLTS will be compensated.


    Yours truly,


    Gaute Godager
    AO Game Director.
    {Edit: Crat crit aura buff edited. }
    Last edited by Cz; Oct 11th, 2002 at 11:51:16.

  2. #2
    even with an init debuff on FOB Mas (and others prof) can still use it switch on IEC and fire alls alphas with the crit buff
    same prob for their self buff one it s still a huge advantage with IEC switching

  3. #3
    So instead of nerfing just the LLTS you nerf everything

    Anyway, so my LLTS will be useless for my bow if this goes through (I'm an adventurer). Bleh, don't care anyway, my trader got it now

    But I think it's fair if you let them drop again after such a change, since they will no longer be the advantage they once were.

    Also, what are you going to do with the MA's Mark line ? Melee only too ?

  4. #4
    I would happily approve of this if it hit people equally hard. I could approve if it hurt MA's the most and others less. I'm afraid it doesn't.

    I'll be back with a big bad post later tonight, about the game mechanics from a practical, in-game viewpoint. It is different then the theoretical approach mr G has to take.

    edit: For a reasonable debate, we need confirmationon what will happen to Vision Enhancers, MA crit-other and the crat crit buffs. Only after that can we make sound suggestions.
    Last edited by DaveDread; Oct 8th, 2002 at 11:50:01.
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  5. #5
    So any non MA that uses phys-init or melee-init is out of luck as far as having any kind of permanent crit increase. How is that fair?

    Or did I miss something?
    VdpMeat ex-MA Engie

  6. #6
    and what about vision enhancer ?

  7. #7
    100% aginst the idea you've just proposed. Enforcer will be the one that'll go down the drain. Without any form of average damage advantage + the exclusion from access to higher crit chance, enforcer will be at huge disadvantage.
    Not to mention not only once did I ask not to compare FoB with LLTS, but the officals simply ignored me.

  8. #8
    btw, I need to know if the changes will only be done to just the LLTS or the new VEs as well.

  9. #9
    YES!!!!


    This sounds great!!! why? well it makes it much more logical and structured how thing work and are intended!

    But Im actually surprised that you allow such a high % even after the "nerf"... Im used to normal RPG and there is a crit something that occures once in a blue moon, aka not something to rely on for damage.


    But this change will hit those that have gone the non-cookie cutter way... aka bows for Adv, or melee for Engs.... and so on... or the most strange one (in my eyes) shotguns for MAs.
    I hope you consider adding good noncrit weapons for those weapon types that are hit the most by this... aka a 80-450(50) shotgun or something like it....
    That way would the existing players with those combos still be able to use that weapon class without gimping themself too much.


    Oh, and they need to start dropping again after this.


    Please don't hesistate to bring up such nice ideas regarding other areas in the future
    Especially if they simplify the understanding of the game!

  10. #10
    Cz changes concern llts or llts and VE ?

  11. #11
    Originally posted by tavumebottes
    Cz changes concern llts or llts and VE ?
    Originally posted by Cz
    Hi everybody. Word from Gaute on criticals and the LLTS.


    ....
    4. Change all other existing critical increase items and nanos to follow this pattern.


    VdpMeat ex-MA Engie

  12. #12
    With this change MA engineers get a MASSIVE shafting. Thanks a bunch for ANOTHER dark blue skill to increase (Fast attack) that will cost us 300-400k IP to max, so we can use a reasonable Flurry of blows. Heck... maybe... just maybe we can equip a ql 125!! How awesome! :/
    Octo - eqp

    Atlanteans Legendary Teddybear wielding engineer and author of Click

    Get the all new SK/XP Calculator and find out when you will DING!

  13. #13
    Best solution I've seen yet. Tho, give engi's something to build that helps us when using MA style/transference.
    Last edited by Animoy; Oct 8th, 2002 at 11:44:58.
    Animoy - Lvl 220 Soldier on Rk-1 - General of Legion
    Athillon - Lvl 162 Engineer on Rk-1 - Member of Legion - Nerf Engi button in creation room - Sleeping

  14. #14
    Originally posted by reality
    Also, what are you going to do with the MA's Mark line ? Melee only too ?
    I believe the intention is to keep that one as it is today.
    Originally posted by tavumebottes
    and what about vision enhancer ?
    Correction: See VdpMeat's post above.

    I'll check on both, to be sure.

  15. #15

    Post Sounds solid

    Sounds like it could work. First of all, thanks for the first time giving out some 'real' solid numbers.

    It still remains to be clarified, if the (24%) self only crit increase of the MA (with bows) is not imbalancing enough on it's own (hold it, MAs, I am playing an Adv and an Engi - I am not asking for a nerf). I don't see any weakness on the side of MA compensating for their outrages damage output. MAs will still come close to 50% crit chance after the changes.

    Eh, btw., I infact do remember times in AO, where the NT was supposed to be the major damage dealing class (their defence is low).


    I really enjoyed reading Gaute's article and I do apply for his job (Some thoughts) - not really, I like mine.

    So long,

    Max(imilian)
    100% curious

  16. #16
    FOB need some changes :
    Gaute talk about some QL200 FOB what prof can use a 1K fast attack req

  17. #17
    Could you also introduce some more non-crit-dependant shotguns ? The Home defender and Vektor Sausage will be about all that is left for the trader after this, maybe the medium shotgun... the rest either sucks bad or is crit-dependant (= sucks bad without crit buffs).

  18. #18

    Thumbs up

    i dont know what exactly will result out of all this, but i have a good feeling

    good luck us all (Designers and players )

    *thumbs up*
    Niraxtc

    100% killer 33% achiever 33% socializer 33% explorer

  19. #19

    Cz, please answer

    One unanswered question: Will (E)LLTS start dropping again, or will VE be the only ones dropping?
    Corianin - TL6 NT - eqp

  20. #20
    CZ sorry but this proposed change makes the worst class right now. Engies for those who don't know. Unplayable now. I can't hit at full speed at 100% agg now anyways and now you want to slow me down even farther?? I got another proposal. nerf FoB.

    And if this nerf aplies to VEs as well as LLTS i will just delete my engie and RK2 can go without my tradeskills

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