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Thread: Can someone give a little better explanation of how trimmers work?

  1. #1

    Can someone give a little better explanation of how trimmers work?

    I know what they do, the description does a good job describing that. What I dont understand (with the exception of the agg/deff trimmer) is how they work / when they work and how long they work for. IE: The aggressive one that makes your pets hits "taunts" ... how long does that last after I use it? DO I need to use it every few seconds, once a fight etc. etc etc. I cant seem to find the answer I am looking for.

  2. #2
    From http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=463195

    Let me know if that explains everything for you.

    8. Trimmers & Android NCU Upgrades

    This section covers the items you can use on your robot to enhance it's performance. Trimmers can be used as many times as you need and won't disapear on use. NCU Upgrades are single use only.

    8.1. Permanent Effect Trimmers

    When used these trimmers have a permenent effect on the robot, so you only need to use them once per bot. Note however, that it is not 100% agread that the effect lasts when you zone, so you might need to redo them every time you zone.

    8.1.1. Agg/Def Trimmer
    Trimmer - Positive Aggressive-Defensive/Trimmer - Negative Aggressive-Defensive.

    This line of trimmers can be bought from the Devices terminal in general stores. The maximum Quality is 100 which represents either full defense or full offense.
    Basically, they alter the position of your pets Aggressive-Defensive slider. The effect is much the same as altering your own, at full offense the bot hits faster but has less effective evades so gets hit more.
    The majority of our bots are more than capable of taking a little punishment though so we tend to favour the Positive Trimmers over the Negative ones.

    8.1.2. Taunting Trimmer
    This trimmer is made using components that can be easily bought in the shops. The Quality ranges from 30 to 200 and will require Mech Eng and a small amount of Chemistry to build.
    The components needed are:

    Which will give you:

    This trimmer adds a relatively small taunt value to your pets hits. In effect each hit making the mob more angry at the robot. Used in conjunction with Trimmer - Positive Aggressive-Defensive this can make the pet very good at holding the mobs attention.

    8.2. Temporary Effect Trimmers

    These trimmers last only for a timed duration. They all lock some skills to make sure they cannot be used too often.

    8.2.1. Tradeoff Trimmers

    These can be used once every 5 minutes, and the effect lasts for 5 minutes. They increase one ability of the robot at the cost of another. They also give a minor skill increase to the skill they lock (3 for ql200).
    They can be found at the Devices terminal in general shops, and can also be rolled as mission reward.
    • Trimmer - Divert Energy to Avoidance - Increases your bots Evades at the expense of it's Maximum Health. The trimmer is currently bugged and increases Poison AC instead of Duck Explosions. It can be very useful for PVP as the damage the bot takes when you use it will break calms. Locks Electrical Engineering for 5 minutes.
    • Trimmer - Divert Energy to Defense - Increases the bots Armour Class at the expense of it's Attack Rating. Locks Mechanical Engineering.
    • Trimmer - Divert Energy to Hitpoints - Increases the bots Maximum Health at the expense of it's Defensive Ability. Locks Electrical Engineering for 5 minutes.
    • Trimmer - Divert Energy to Offense - Increases the bots Attack Rating at the expense of Armour Class. Locks Mechanical Engineering for 5 minutes.


    8.2.2. Damage Type Trimmers

    These trimmers change the damage type your robot does for 10 minutes. They decrease the hitpoints of the robot by a significant amount. They lock Mechanical Engineering for 60 minutes, so they can only be used once every hour. All in all, most engineers don't find them very usefull.
    They are made by combining an energy core of the appropriate type, with Trimmer Casing. Energy cores are found on minibosses in alien ships, or in apf. Trimmer Casing is from Mechanical Engineering Components.


    Note that these trimmers appear to be bugged, and they cause the bot to appear to have zero HP and stop moving. Zoning solves the problem.

    8.2.3. Improve Actuators Trimmer

    This trimmer adds to the damage your bot does and to its health. The effect lasts for 10 minutes, but it locks Mechanical Engineering for 60 minutes. It can be useful in a tight spot due to the immediate healing it does.
    To make it combine Smelly Liquid, found minibosses in alien ships and in apf, with Trimmer Casing from Mechanical Engineering Components. The result is

    Note that it can only be done up to ql244 since the casing can only be found up to ql220.

    8.3. NCU Upgrades

    Android NCU Upgrades provide additional NCU space for your bot, 110 more NCU at QL200. These do not come without a price though, each upgrade lowers the Armour on your bot (400 AC with a QL200 upgrade).

    For the most part these NCU Upgrades are unnecessary as the bots generally have enough room for you to run a reflect shield, damage shield, AC buff and an Attack Rating buff. However you may want a keep a few handy if you really need them, especially since they drop fairly regularly in missions.

    The lower Quality NCU upgrades tend to be more useful than the higher level ones as you're unlikely to need 110 more NCU on a robot.
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  3. #3
    The NCU upgrades are vital if you plan to do tl7 pvp as it allows you to buff pet with everything including iSOTOS/MB/ASHS/CPS etc, and the 400 ac debuff doesnt mean squat really.
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  4. #4
    Since we have Lazynogen as prof and he will just copy and paste, let me explain what I understand about them if that helps more-so than wall of text.

    Basically the main 'concept' of trimmers is as follows: they are items we use to change the performance of our pets. Although there are defensive trimmers they are mostly moot and pointless as you really only need the DD ones. That said I will list the useful ones.

    Trimmer - Divert Energy to Offense
    This trimmer locks Mech. Eng for 5 minutes, as such the buff on the pet lasts for 5 minutes so it needs to be re-applied every time it runs out.
    QL200
    Reduces AC-s by 1000
    Adds 40 AAO and +40 damage to the pet

    Trimmer - Increase Aggressiveness
    This is the slayer / widow trimmer, it increases aggressiveness by 90 (QL 200) making targets more likely to attack the pet if they have this one them. (RP - Lore reason is something like it applies some stinging poison to the pets claws which makes the mob angry at them instead of you)

    Trimmer - Positive Aggressive-Defensive
    This trimmer sets the agg/def bar of your pet. Just like how you can set your characters agg/def bar. This trimmer allows you to put the pet at 100% (QL 100) agg/def making it attack faster.

    Trimmers effects stay on the pets through soft zones but not through hard zones from what I understand, although personally I just re-trim pets every time I zone just to be safe as well as keep checking the 5 minute one to make sure my pets are doing more damage.

    To give an example:

    Zone into Static
    Widowmaker
    - Divert energy to offense
    - Increase aggressiveness
    - Positive Agg-Def

    Dog
    - Divert energy to offense
    - Positive Agg-Def

    Then refresh Divert energy to offense every 5 minutes.
    Last edited by Takun; Apr 12th, 2010 at 11:14:04.
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    Grenade Infos
    Pure DPS - [Setup] - 1701 Fling to cap Sloth - 1% crit is equal to ~28+ damage
    Agg/Def: 100% - 1440 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 150 Ranged Init to cap Sloth
    Agg/Def: 0% - 2640 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 1650 Ranged Init to cap Sloth

  5. #5

    Talking

    Thank you Takun for the clarification. I had already read those threads but for some reason they were not clicking in my head. Your explanation hit the nail on the head, TYTYTY!!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Technogen View Post
    8.2.2. Damage Type Trimmers

    [...]. All in all, most engineers don't find them very usefull. [...]
    what???? one of the most useful trimmers out there...
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  7. #7
    Hey, I haven't updated that thread since I started. I fixed a few links and no one was interested in anything else on it so I stopped pretty much.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramsunat View Post
    what???? one of the most useful trimmers out there...
    Please give examples under what specific situation you would use which trimmer. Please also give us your opinion on "Note that these trimmers appear to be bugged, and they cause the bot to appear to have zero HP and stop moving. Zoning solves the problem."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Or, well, that's how it's supposed to work. ;P

  9. #9
    the fire / cold / <energy?> trimmers would be usefull in places like biodome if it wasnt for the fact that it seems to set pet hp to 5k or somesuch (never checked actual hp, maybe something to try next time i'm at the darwin fence in apf 13).
    personally i have all 3 of those damage type modifier trimmers, but i've only used em like once or twice in the last 3.5 years, i think i have em somewhere in a bag in my bank along with my noob armor, T1, GoT belt, DM's and such

    takun's explanation of the trimmers seems to be decent, not sure if the numbers are right though (i r lazy )

    Greetings,



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    And Ella said, "Let there be robots," and there were robots. Ella saw that the robots were good, and he separated the light from the dark. Ella called the light "Slayerdroids," and the dark he called "Gladiatorbots." And there was Automations, and there was Warmachines- the second day.

  10. #10
    Damage type changers are predominantly for unifying you and your pets damage output for PvP, or in Biodome/vs a Dummy with certain absorb shields. In theory this is exceedingly useful. Sadly in practise the bugginess of the trimmers is too severe, in my opinion, and I don't use them for this reason.

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  11. #11
    1)Duel an enfo
    2)Before you send an invitation for a duel, buff your pets with Fire Dmg trimmer and use the Albtraum Fire Damage Generator.
    3)??? (Rip through his coon and heal perks and 3k evades and whatanot)
    4)Profit

    That's the only scenario, beside Biodome, where those pet trimmers are useful. It applies for any Biococoon prof really, provided you can do some dmg by yourself (Can you hit advies at all?).
    Now it would be nice to get them fixed because they bug every 10min (when the buff expires) and it's pretty annoying when you're in bs you gotta wait to get in deco room.
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  12. #12
    With regard to Trimmer - Increase Aggresiveness.

    I am certain that this works better if spammed. I remember doing Ely hecks at 100 using this to hold agro with the slayer. If I didn't spam this baby I'd draw agro, if I spammed it the slayer could hold the agro not just from the Heck it was attacking but also the odd add aswell.

    I viewed it as a mini-mongo type thing that when used throws out a small spray of liquid that irritates and annoys surrounding mobs that it hits.

  13. #13
    personally i wouldnt use it in pvp, cause it makes pets squishy, but i'm not much of a pvp'er so cant really say much about it beyond what i can tell just from looking at it.

    Greetings,




    Ellarisa
    Darkellarisa 220/30/70 Engineer equipment pvp // Alien Deaths: 353
    Crazyella 220/30/70 MP equipment // Alien Deaths: 90
    Stabbingella 220/28/67 Shade equipment // Alien Deaths: 45
    Farming alien deaths since 2006!

    Quote Originally Posted by Solidstriker View Post
    And Ella said, "Let there be robots," and there were robots. Ella saw that the robots were good, and he separated the light from the dark. Ella called the light "Slayerdroids," and the dark he called "Gladiatorbots." And there was Automations, and there was Warmachines- the second day.

  14. #14
    I remember when I did Biodome I would use the damage type modifier trimmers I would just make the pet attack the boss even when the damage shield changed so I could just get them killed and spawn another one and use a different damage trimmer.

    But the thing was when the shield kicked in they didn't die fast intact their HP bar wouldn't move at all for a long time. So that makes me believe when you use the trimmer their HP does something like be set to 30k/5k. So then you have to do 25k damage to actually start seeing them take damage.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanana View Post
    With regard to Trimmer - Increase Aggresiveness.

    I am certain that this works better if spammed. I remember doing Ely hecks at 100 using this to hold agro with the slayer. If I didn't spam this baby I'd draw agro, if I spammed it the slayer could hold the agro not just from the Heck it was attacking but also the odd add aswell.
    Incorrect sir. First off you most likely did better spamming the trimmer because you where spamming it instead of doing damage with your weapons - thus less agro and less pulling off the slayer. Secondly there is a massive difference between pets trimmed with this and not trimmed with this. If I don't use it at all I pull agro rather easily, if I do use it (once) my pet repeatedly holds agro - thus one must come to the conclusion that it does not 'wear off' after one hit or after one mob is dead and it sticks with the pet as long as you don't hardzone to reset the pets values. (IE this is a static value mobs have) ((Another way of thinking about trimmers is they are buffs in the pets ncu, just ones that last forever - void the 5 minute damage one))

    Maybe this will help clear things up. (this is how I understand it) Mobs have an aggro list of which they attack the highest person on the list. I am a very visual person so maybe something like this.

    The Beast's Agro List
    Widowmaker 20.000 <Being Attacked>
    Takun 15.000
    Dog 10.000

    This means what? Well from what I understand of it damage is about equal to one agro 'point' thusly in this example the widowmaker has done 20.000 points of damage and is thusly the one with agro. Items such as this trimmer which "Increase aggressiveness by 90" I believe do something like raise the conversion from damage to agro points. So instead of 20.000 damage being 20.000 agro 'points' the widowmaker would instead have something like 30.000 'points' on the agro list.

    The Beast's Agro List
    Widowmaker 30.000 <Being Attacked>
    Takun 15.000
    Dog 10.000

    Likewise items like mongo taunt, single taunts and taunt items simply increase your 'points' on the agro list.

    Angry Rollerrat
    Person A - 5000 <Being Attacked>
    Enforcer - 3000

    (enforcer mongos 10000 taunt)

    Angry Rollerrat
    Enforcer - 15000 <Being Attacked>
    Person A - 5000

    This is also how calms work in pve. A calm essentially stuns the mob for the duration its up and it wipes the values on its agro list, which is why it attacks the first person that attacks it when the calm breaks, or it goes after the healer when the calm is broken because all it has on its agro list is that heal that went off right before the calm got broken.

    There are two kinks in this theory however, one being pet agro (of which I think our pets naturally generate agro 'points' for us simply because they are our pets) and the other is random hits on other people.

    Say you have an enforcer that mongos a mob 20 times and then while fighting it, it randomly turns around and hits some person once or they just get the Attacked by X message. I think this is a mechanic put in (seems to be mostly SL mobs) to make content a little more challenging or maybe mobs just have a natural aggro reset timer and it sometimes goes off while your fighting them.

    The Beast
    Enforcer 10000 <Being Attacked>
    Doctor 7000
    Engineer 5000

    (Agro resets, doctor gets a heal off, this is a matter of seconds mind you)

    The Beast
    Doctor 3000 <Being Attacked - Doctor either gets a flash Attacked By message or is actually hit once>
    Enforcer 0
    Engineer 0

    (Pro enforcer notices he doesn't have agro and mongos)

    The Beast
    Enforcer 10000 <Being Attacked>
    Doctor 9000
    Engineer 7000

    Hope that helps and wasn't too confusing :X
    Last edited by Takun; Apr 12th, 2010 at 23:23:18.
    Grenadearchy Online
    Takun - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Crit Monster - Overlord of Mortar Kombat
    Grenades - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Leveling Monster - Advisor of Mortar Kombat

    Grenade Infos
    Pure DPS - [Setup] - 1701 Fling to cap Sloth - 1% crit is equal to ~28+ damage
    Agg/Def: 100% - 1440 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 150 Ranged Init to cap Sloth
    Agg/Def: 0% - 2640 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 1650 Ranged Init to cap Sloth

  16. #16
    Very possibly Takun, although at 100 I was letting the pet kill the mob so I wasn't dealing damage untill it was almost dead and I was able to get it into slow mo mode.

    But yeah, you are most likely right.

    How would you explain an add not being attacked by the pet, headed towards me, being pulled back to pet by spamming a trimmer? This may be due to me backing off slightly when a add was pulled and the mob retargeting to the closest target..being my pet.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Takun View Post
    This means what? Well from what I understand of it damage is about equal to one agro 'point' thusly in this example the widowmaker has done 20.000 points of damage and is thusly the one with agro. Items such as this trimmer which "Increase aggressiveness by 90" I believe do something like raise the conversion from damage to agro points. So instead of 20.000 damage being 20.000 agro 'points' the widowmaker would instead have something like 30.000 'points' on the agro list.
    It's a nice theory and the explanation is very good - however I always believed that rather than changing the conversion ratio, some sort of taunt per hit is added. I.e.:

    Not trimmed:

    Widow hits Beast for 1000 dmg, 1000 taunt goes to the Beast's hate list

    Trimmed with aggro trimmer:

    Widow hits Beast for 1000 dmg + 500 taunt, 1500 taunt goes to the Beast's hate list

    The above may look like exactly the same result, however what's different is that the taunt value might be static per hit and not dependant on actual damage done per hit. I.e. trimmed widow:

    Widow hits beast for 100 dmg + 500 taunt, 600 taunt goes to hate list.

    Hope you caught my drift.
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  18. #18
    cold trimmer is useful since masters bidding uses cold damage too. its useful in fighting the following professions:

    enf, adv, NT, shade, keeper, engi + every nanomage ie. anyone using any absorb (save for soldiers n fixers)

    kinda risky to use in many vs many pvp, since there are some pvmers/failed pvpers so desperate in grief to hunt your pets down just to annoy you before being lolpwned in the next second.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanana View Post
    How would you explain an add not being attacked by the pet, headed towards me, being pulled back to pet by spamming a trimmer? This may be due to me backing off slightly when a add was pulled and the mob retargeting to the closest target..being my pet.
    So let me see if I have this straight, you where fighting a heckler an add pops and starts running towards you, you run away and spam trimmer and the heck turns around and then goes for your slayer instead of you?

    I didn't mention it but I have some feeling there is some type of vicinity defining agro, which is why I think even if someone is higher damage and maybe even higher on the agro list, if they are at ranged and the enforcer is right in the mobs face the mob might just stay on the enforcer. Likewise if the ranged person was to then start fighting mobs at melee ranged they would most likely pull more often or even end up tanking.

    Percentages work well for this.

    Agro Table
    Enforcer 100% <Being Attacked>
    Fixer 90%
    Doc 40%

    Agro Table
    Fixer 110%
    Enforcer 100% <Being Attacked>
    Doc 40%

    Meaning that maybe you can go over the tanks agro as long as your at range, but once you reach say 120% of the treat it retargets and you become the new target

    Agro Table
    Fixer 110% (Fixer FA-s and goes from 110 to 120%)
    Enforcer 100%
    Doc 40%

    Meaning the new agro table would reset as follows:

    Agro Table
    Fixer 100% <Being Attacked>
    Enforcer 80%
    Doc 40%

    That said I wonder if you had the intrusive aura up? I believe that kind of pulses out and at least puts the bots on the targets agro list. Since it is basically like the windowmaker casting a snare on the target, which I think all perks, debuffs, nanos, etc have some basic + agro points mechanic even if they don't do damage. Likewise hecklers are social mobs, if you attack one of their friends they all agro and come running (like how faction mobs and coral rafters are not, they can be on top of each other and you can shoot one, and they won't both come after you) this might play into why it went to the slayer instead of you.

    Heckler Pops.
    Your in the vicinity he goes after you.
    His hate list now also has the slayer in it from him beating on his heckler buddy.
    He now turns around and smacks the slayer because it has more agro on it from the damage done to its buddy.

    I will conclude again with saying how this is a static value and spamming the trimmer will do nothing to increase performance.

    Target Set Agg/Def 100
    - This is the effect of the positive - agg/def trimmer. Agg/def is a static value the pet has, which is why you use the trimmer once when you hardzone.

    Target Set Aggressiveness 90
    - This is the trimmer in question. Which again, looks to be a static value the pet has, there is no timer here, or charges to it. It is simply a value the mob has, just like its +damage, just like its +aao and just likes its hp value.

    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    It's a nice theory and the explanation is very good - however I always believed that rather than changing the conversion ratio, some sort of taunt per hit is added. I.e.:
    Mmm good point. Although to the same end I just can not see level 1 android doing the same amount of taunting per hit as the widowmaker, even though obviously the widow maker would have more agro just from doing more damage. It would be very hard to measure however, since you always have the issue of actual damage being done in each scenario in which you try to test it.

    IE in my scenario if the mob has a reflect shield (very little damage) its threat output should suck. However in yours it should still be doing +500 or whatever per hit even if its damage is crap. Likewise not knowing any values its hard to tell because we both have the issue of the pets damage being adding to the agro list and at both of a small value.
    Last edited by Takun; Apr 14th, 2010 at 00:25:34.
    Grenadearchy Online
    Takun - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Crit Monster - Overlord of Mortar Kombat
    Grenades - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Leveling Monster - Advisor of Mortar Kombat

    Grenade Infos
    Pure DPS - [Setup] - 1701 Fling to cap Sloth - 1% crit is equal to ~28+ damage
    Agg/Def: 100% - 1440 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 150 Ranged Init to cap Sloth
    Agg/Def: 0% - 2640 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 1650 Ranged Init to cap Sloth

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Takun View Post
    I didn't mention it but I have some feeling there is some type of vicinity defining agro, which is why I think even if someone is higher damage and maybe even higher on the agro list, if they are at ranged and the enforcer is right in the mobs face the mob might just stay on the enforcer. Likewise if the ranged person was to then start fighting mobs at melee ranged they would most likely pull more often or even end up tanking.
    I can confirm your feeling.

    After having fighted against (seemingly) bazillions of mobs in RK missions and SL dungeons I also have the feeling that distance is an important factor for getting or losing aggro.

    Very often you want to pull single mobs out of a group in a dungeon/mission room because you want to prevent social aggro. I put the pets on /wait outside of the room, go slowly near the nearest mob until it attacks me. I run out, let my pets attack when the mob is near them, and start to attack too. The pets hold aggro if I stay away a certain distance but lose it when I come too close. It is even possible to let the aggro move back and forth between me and my pets according to the distance I keep to the mob (snare aura ftw).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Or, well, that's how it's supposed to work. ;P

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