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Thread: Friday with Means - March 5th, 2010 - It isn't a sprint.

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Technogen View Post
    The Email seems to have been a system error of some sort, as it should have gone out like middle of next week and the name wipe is a bit less than they normally would so we at-least have that going for us.
    ...
    Fascinating.

  2. #162
    God damnit they keep turning the LHC on!

    Last week, what ever.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

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  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost View Post
    I can see alot of angry players wanting to know where there L1 bank toon with all there stuff is?
    What's worse, if someone hasn't used their bank toon for 1 year, they probably won't notice its loss immediately. Even if FC keeps some method of restoring such deleted characters for a while, they might not able to do it in months or years when the inactive players do start noticing that their toons and stuff are gone.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Berinda View Post
    The more you speak about soldiers, the more it is apparent you don't fully understand them.
    Oh, I fully understand what you want, don't worry.
    blah

  5. #165
    I've kept quiet, watching and hoping that FC will not fall under player pressure and test things out for themselves when they think they have the right balance in place.

    BR has gone from situational to useless. What is the point of the nano now? Why would I sacrifice RRFE for a substandard version in length and reflects to reduce another player of pittiful reflects for 10s. To make things worse we probably wont be able to get a new RRFE for 10 minutes.

    Bow down to the profs with the most players / whines. Traders have the worst static defense bar none. I can not switch on defense without landing 3 nanos on the specific target. We used to get mowed down by soldiers in 8 seconds, welcome back to those days. I cant imagine what its going to be like for traders when AS is nerfed.
    BarginDealer The Trader
    Moretea The Enforcer
    Bahba The Adventurer
    Lesstea The Shade

    General Knights of Ka

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by -Barg- View Post
    I've kept quiet, watching and hoping that FC will not fall under player pressure and test things out for themselves when they think they have the right balance in place.

    BR has gone from situational to useless. What is the point of the nano now? Why would I sacrifice RRFE for a substandard version in length and reflects to reduce another player of pittiful reflects for 10s. To make things worse we probably wont be able to get a new RRFE for 10 minutes.

    Bow down to the profs with the most players / whines. Traders have the worst static defense bar none. I can not switch on defense without landing 3 nanos on the specific target. We used to get mowed down by soldiers in 8 seconds, welcome back to those days. I cant imagine what its going to be like for traders when AS is nerfed.
    Yet traders kill allmost anything 1 on 1 as of now without reflect drains.
    Imo this looks perfect as long as rrfe has a higher stackingorder.

    Remember, this nano will let you debuff ANYONES reflect and help in fights you previously couldnt even use the nano. I don't see how this is going to be bad.
    Fapfap - 220/19 Fixer
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Autofil View Post
    Yet traders kill allmost anything 1 on 1 as of now without reflect drains.
    Imo this looks perfect as long as rrfe has a higher stackingorder.

    Remember, this nano will let you debuff ANYONES reflect and help in fights you previously couldnt even use the nano. I don't see how this is going to be bad.
    If it cancels RRFE (which at the moment It does) it is useless to debuff anyones reflects for 10 seconds. Traders do not kill almost anything 1 on 1 unless the trader is very well equipt and the allmost anything is a hecknoob. Throw in AS nerf and GTH nerf and we will kill almost nothing 1 on 1.

    Why would you cast against any prof to get a pittiful reduction of AC on the target which will cost you time and lose some reflects yourself. We have so many nanos that we require to cast to be on a level footing with most profs this has not only gone off my hotbars it will be deleted as it is useless in its current form.

    My real disappointment however isn't the change to this nano its how FC fail in testing what they were given by soldiers on how BR should work and how it totally nullifys the nano. If it added to the top of RRFE it still wont do enough to a soldier to even warrant them of thinking if they should AMS or not. Soldiers can get over 100% relect in some types and just about 100% so with them having 70-80% for 10 seconds its hardly going to hurt at all.
    BarginDealer The Trader
    Moretea The Enforcer
    Bahba The Adventurer
    Lesstea The Shade

    General Knights of Ka

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Autofil View Post
    Remember, this nano will let you debuff ANYONES reflect and help in fights you previously couldnt even use the nano. I don't see how this is going to be bad.
    That anyone, are you talking about people with only RRFE? As in "Hi, I'm a trader. I will trade my 1 hour 30% reflects for a 10 min 18% reflects so I can steal 12% of your reflects for 10 seconds" ? That's as likely to happen as fixers relying only on their summon stuff nanolines for all their ammo needs.

  9. #169
    "I've kept quiet, watching and hoping that FC will not fall under player pressure and test things out for themselves when they think they have the right balance in place."

    Yep, sounds about the right method, any word from Mean if they do play the game ? if they do, how come they went from an OP version of BR one week to a next to useless version the next week ?

  10. #170
    Omg! Devs are going to keel my op'ed nanoes now I can delete my fotm lovechild prof! teh painz! teh painz! *cries*

    Seriously, FC takes GTH, a major game breaker for many profs, and scales it down to a somewhat balanced level. Then they take BR and scale it down two times. The first time it looks OP'ed because the effects would be too heavy on both, most other profs and the trader himself. The second version looks much more balanced. What can be done to have traders, balance-devs and the players satisfied?

    Make it stackable with RRFE. Keep the progression of the nano as it is mentioned in Means' post. If it is possible to reach more than 65% reflects including equip and with BR and RRFE running, scale it down a bit to prevent traders from being unkillable (the Trader professionals should be able to help by looking what is reachable there). Lenghten the duration of the nano to about 1 minutes. Make it castable every 5 Minutes.

    To the cry babies in here which see their prof destroyed:

    The trader HAS a good toolset for pvp. You can't deny it. Adjusting these 2 nanos to a level where they fit into the plans for reballancing won't kill your profession. Please, stop crying about this. The stats posted by Means are neither final nor on live yet. Nobody in this forum knows where FC is going to with the rebalancing, but the changes they already announced let you have a peek at the big picture (which looks at least promising for me). Calm down, take a breath and keep constructive. There is no need to cry, scream, flame or quit the game about this. Doing so will only end up in YOU being IGNORED by the devs.
    I thought there was a state wide ban on selling klingon weaponry to arachnids.
    This quote is from back on earth

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosgoth View Post
    ajor game breaker for many profs, and scales it down to a somewhat balanced level.
    Lol. "Scaled down"? In duration maybe.
    Member of Spartans
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosgoth View Post
    Omg! Devs are going to keel my op'ed nanoes now I can delete my fotm lovechild prof! teh painz! teh painz! *cries*

    Seriously, FC takes GTH, a major game breaker for many profs, and scales it down to a somewhat balanced level. Then they take BR and scale it down two times. The first time it looks OP'ed because the effects would be too heavy on both, most other profs and the trader himself. The second version looks much more balanced. What can be done to have traders, balance-devs and the players satisfied?

    Make it stackable with RRFE. Keep the progression of the nano as it is mentioned in Means' post. If it is possible to reach more than 65% reflects including equip and with BR and RRFE running, scale it down a bit to prevent traders from being unkillable (the Trader professionals should be able to help by looking what is reachable there). Lenghten the duration of the nano to about 1 minutes. Make it castable every 5 Minutes.

    To the cry babies in here which see their prof destroyed:

    The trader HAS a good toolset for pvp. You can't deny it. Adjusting these 2 nanos to a level where they fit into the plans for reballancing won't kill your profession. Please, stop crying about this. The stats posted by Means are neither final nor on live yet. Nobody in this forum knows where FC is going to with the rebalancing, but the changes they already announced let you have a peek at the big picture (which looks at least promising for me). Calm down, take a breath and keep constructive. There is no need to cry, scream, flame or quit the game about this. Doing so will only end up in YOU being IGNORED by the devs.

    Before Traders got BR and GTH what was that good toolset for PVP. GTH made NBD usable. BR stopped us being soldier alpha food. Did BR and GTH go too far on negative effects to opponents maybe but to the trader is made it PLAYABLE ( I know how to use caps too).

    FC needs to think before they release changes, they need to test them. Im not going on what came out of someone testing on testlive, Im going with what means wrote on this thread. A change that they think is ok without even testing or considering the prof who this change affects the most. If you go out for a meal to a new restaurant and your served crap would you go again hoping it was going to be improved upon.

    Talk about being constructive and the big picture is fine however when FC allow this type of implementation it makes for a mockery of having Trader professionals or the profession in game. There is no situation it would be used in this form, whats the point of releasing it on testlive in this form when it is useless this way. It would only take someone with limited knowledge of the trader profession to explain it. That is why im dissolution-ed with FC on this.
    BarginDealer The Trader
    Moretea The Enforcer
    Bahba The Adventurer
    Lesstea The Shade

    General Knights of Ka

  13. #173
    the only thing that BR would need right now is lower stacking order then rrfe has,,,

    if you cant kill a soldier without the old bull**** version of BR you dont deserve too, retreat ar die

    anyways, killing a soldier with the old BR doesnt feel like any accomplishment

    good change, just rework the stacking order so it doesnt overwrite rrfe and its perfect
    The most obvious MB on Rubi-Ka
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  14. #174
    To Means and the Development Crew:

    This is not a flame. That said, i beg you to listen to the traders who actually play their profession in pvp and not the people who have died to traders and whine about it. Sure some of them are looking for god-mode, but many of us simply want a fun (and fair) profession for PvP based on debuffs (and the strategy that goes with them).


    First let's talk about the buff side...

    The issue with the current BR implementation idea is that it turns the nano from something always used (bad) to something never used (worse). In a best case situation, you gain a 10minute (short-term) buff equal to RRFE (30%). In the worse case, you are giving up a 1-hour, 30% buff for a 10minute buff that gives half of the reflect mod. In the average case, we are losing a moderate amount of reflect and 50minutes of duration. No PvP trader is going to take these chances considering the abysmal state of our static defenses.


    Looking at the debuff portion...

    My problem here is not at the lower levels of reflect. I think there a good job was done to ensure that the difference is there without completely stripping their reflect. This is perfect in a nano that is intended for use against anyone and not just soldiers. Unfortunately, the debuff effect against AMS is laughable :\ Taking a soldier from 80+ to 60+ is significant only when a zergforce is throwing DD at the soldier, and under these conditions the soldier will (and should) die anyway. In 1-v-1 (i know this isn't your - dev team - prime concern but is worth mentioning), this amount of reflect is simply nowhere near enough to make a difference.


    How to fix it...

    There have been a few great suggestions already in this thread to adjust BR in a way that is fair to all parties involved, making it beneficial and "strong enough" for the trader without being overpowered. For the debuff, i think the duration and strength need to be increased on the top-end reflect boundaries (ie, AMS'd soldiers and Zset MPs) as 10seconds isn't enough to do much damage in this game without a zerg (and if there is a zerg, they should die). For the buff portion, my favorite two ideas are:
    • Most professions receive a maximum reflect bonus. With respect to BR, this means that even if we -would- get 20% drained from BR normally the actual effect would be lessened depending on what reflects we already have. personally, i think 40-45% is a good starting point value. (Credit to Tinyhogg for this idea).
    • Make the buff portion of the BR very small (i saw numbers going 3% to 10% and they look very reasonable, maybe 5% to 15% at most). Thus, it won't really matter what level of reflect you have already because we are not talking about adding a game-breaking amount of reflect.
    Both of these are based on the idea of BR stacking with RRFE, because as discussed above removing reflects and replacing it with BR is the recipe for a nano that traders will not use.
    Last edited by Bonghigs; Mar 8th, 2010 at 16:46:32.
    Proud Member of Paradise

  15. #175
    "In the worse case, you are giving up a 1-hour, 30% buff for a 10minute buff that gives half of the reflect mod. "

    You forget you won the debuff advantadge on solja's part. I think the amount debuffed is right. 80 to 60% means the soldier gonna take 2x the dmg he normally would. This is a lot. What mind need adjustment imo would be the duration, not sure about that. But -20% reflect in itself on a prof like a solja isn't meaningless at all. Prof, greenies solja in AMS1 do die reasonnably quick thru AMS.

    The 10 minute duration isn't a problem since in today's pvp you are almost guaranteed to find an other AMS'd solja within 5 min top, and if you not, you can always hunt a solja from your side.

    I really don't get the complain about the 10 min duration.

  16. #176
    this nano should never ever been implemented ingame in the first place, making it completely useless would be way better then leaving it as it is right now in any case, and i do play a trader too, it aint only from the receiving ends perspective

    personally i really felt bad and like cheating w.e i used this nano on a clan soldier, and did so only if i couldnt afford myself more time to take one down w.o it, due to a crowd of opposing sides ppl arround ( and i dont bother leaving free space in ncu for it anyways, with the exception of maybe NW )

    i wouldnt mind it stacking with rrfe if other traders cant live w,o it, alltho the buff part of it would have to be cut in half then imo

    or better yet, just delete all nemezis nanos alltogether and admit the guys previously doing your job screwed this up completely;p no need to try ballance something as missthought as these


    PS. while at this topic, redo nts double/tripple's so they only rip radiation reflects, unless you plan to remove them completely from the game as i heard, but in that case, if you plan to replace them with any other reflect ripping nukes, pls remember to keep the ripping part to the type of dmg they do, no need to open soldiers up for all dmg types w.e they get hit by those
    Last edited by Insane666; Mar 8th, 2010 at 17:22:09.
    The most obvious MB on Rubi-Ka
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Djantro View Post
    "In the worse case, you are giving up a 1-hour, 30% buff for a 10minute buff that gives half of the reflect mod. "

    You forget you won the debuff advantadge on solja's part. I think the amount debuffed is right. 80 to 60% means the soldier gonna take 2x the dmg he normally would. This is a lot. What mind need adjustment imo would be the duration, not sure about that. But -20% reflect in itself on a prof like a solja isn't meaningless at all. Prof, greenies solja in AMS1 do die reasonnably quick thru AMS.

    The 10 minute duration isn't a problem since in today's pvp you are almost guaranteed to find an other AMS'd solja within 5 min top, and if you not, you can always hunt a solja from your side.

    I really don't get the complain about the 10 min duration.
    Well, I understand what you're saying about the -20 being a good amount and I am certainly not suggesting that it should remove all as before. That said, i still believe that it should remove more like 30% and not 20%.

    Regarding the time frame, it's more about spending time and nano casting to get an inferior reflect than the actual time. In truth, 5 minutes would be plenty most of the time but even at 10 minutes there will be lots of times where my reflect would run out and i would have nothing at all. I think that your comment about "almost guaranteed to find an other AMS'd solja" is highly exaggerated; if that were true i would be casting BR all the time in pvp and that just isn't true. I understand that the point of this is a drain, but for the drain to actually lessen the traders reflect in most cases means the buff part needs to be this highly considered.
    Last edited by Bonghigs; Mar 8th, 2010 at 17:55:53.
    Proud Member of Paradise

  18. #178
    Whatever happens with BR change, it most certainly shouldn't be allowed to bring another potential 24/7 Zset-like reflect/def in game.

    Not with such offensive/heavy debuff/cc combination.

    There's also that one, simple solution. Total scrap of LE-introduced nemesis nanos.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  19. #179
    AMS has it's downsides, namely the Complete shutdown of nearly all nanoskills for longer than the Duration of the Nano.

    Shield of Zset has it's downsides, namely the sacrifice of an offensive weapon for survivability.

    Nullity Sphere has it's downsides, it's very short duration, locks out the use of some nanos and roots the NT.

    BR has no downsides other than the need for a target with reflects, with the changes planned that's going to increase from soldiers using AMS to everyone.

    While Traders are saying it's useless because it doesn't stack with RRFE, there's still the situation which no one's really mentioned which is when RRFE just isn't available, it happens. BR should not stack, unless it's a very small amount and keeps the proposed lockout or it'll just be spammed on everyone instead of being a situational tool.
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    BR should not stack, unless it's a very small amount and keeps the proposed lockout or it'll just be spammed on everyone instead of being a situational tool.
    This. BR should temporary make your current reflects a little better and the lock out could even be 2 mins as long as it debuffs its target for a decent amount.

    Something like:
    1-5% 1% -2%
    6-10% 1% -4%
    11-15% 2% -6%
    16-20% 3% -8%
    21-25% 4% -10%
    26-30% 5% -15%
    31-40% 6% -20%
    41-50% 7% -25%
    51-60% 8% -30%
    61-80% 9% -40%
    >80% 10% -50%

    It's roughly halved reflects for 10s, won't be game breaking but still matter.
    blah

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