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Thread: Low Level Trader(s) Drains

  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    Iirc, that's exactly what we came up with - after pages of passionate debate in this thread.
    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...ghlight=trader

    Read my second suggestion in the thread It was actually in another thread even before that one that I felt this was probably the best solution at the time.

    Honestly if FC read that thread they could most certainly have come up with something that could be introduced now or even years ago.

  2. #322
    Yay, the second solution you suggested (if i read well : limit the drain landing on the PVP target according to level or title) is what we came up to. I'm strongly for such solution as a basis to rebalance all professions (NR, AOO/DD, heals, etc).

    Whereas the first solution you proposed (dividing drains in 2 lines -nano & melee/ranged-) creates more problems than it solves, as analysed & explained in the APGecko thread.
    Some other proposals where made like % debuff (very unfair to twinks & sploitable), nanocost/recharge nerf (wich sucks and lowers playability) and some crazy others (level lock OSB like mochams etc). Nothing was as convincing as the "target drain limit" we end up on.

    As i read the rebalance documentation on trader, that's been pretty well heard and taken in account by FC.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    Again, whining about OBed traders instead of thinking of a creative solution ain't gonna do much.
    Here's a little guide on how to beat a lvl 15 OBed Trader:
    Use the Suppression Timer to do the following:
    Use Gazump Fight or Sacrifice, equip a B-94 and an Eye Wind and boom.
    That is an Instant Kill, nearly 100% of the time.
    150, 30%, 30%, 50.
    If you've never played a Tower Trader, that is lethal enough.
    You forgot that in this hypothetical scenario... the trader also had blockers. The alpha was absorbed, and the non-trader was quickly drained into 25 or 0% Effectiveness.
    With a Heal over time (which is pretty standard in tower pvp) it's impossible to kill the trader.
    Forum pvp scenario's like yours will never 'create' balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Two viable profs at lowbie PVP does not make for a balanced situation. I think the core complaint here is related to that fact. The consequence is that the unbalance favours one profession. The specific complaint of the OP is that the result is it favours traders. A specific the fix is denying traders access the things that make them outclass all others. The more general fix is to ensure that the tools accessible to all profs that level are on the same level of play.

    The fact that a non-drained anyone can gank a trader is of no relevance here. That's a very situational scenario.
    And 'viable' profs are even further marginalized by the way suppression gas works. If a trader is defending a tower site for example, he has the benefit of being protected until he decides to drain/root. All the time in the world to get max distance, and the aggressor rooted and drained.
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  4. #324
    yeah, Traders are overpowered - when they have a TL7 engi, MP, Keeper, Soldier and Trader backing them up at all times in every scenario.

  5. #325
    Unfortunately, they have. Any OSB that another profession can get, a trader can get those and many more.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  6. #326
    Not quite, Obtena. What use would an NR agent have for Brutal Thug, or Mocham's?
    Don't say "The prof with the highest NCU can get the biggest buffs!" because ironically, the most IP-effective setup has the least amount of NCU needed - a Pump Trader, for example, would have no additional AR (non compared to say, 1hb), whereas an Agent can get a much more diverse setup instead of the scenario-specific ways of the Trader, which may aswell read:
    Must have:
    - Several 220s using team effects to defend
    - Outside buffs normally usable by characters of atleast level 150.
    - Be in Sneak, Grace or just no flag.
    - Be against a single melee opponent with comparably low Nano Resist.
    - Fully predrained.
    - The opponent having no physical way of escaping or gaining any edge at all.
    - The opponent being fully self buffed.

    Traders are only overpowered in certain scenarios.

  7. #327
    A well setup trader can pretty much crush anything at the lower levels with gsf, hot and mochams, all easy enough to roll up on a secondary froob account.

    These aren't duels against some random traders that we are talking about, it's outside buffed characters that from TL3 and on can in a second remove 250 skills along with 150 AAO. Even if you're a NR twink the 90% check will land eventually (and in most cases before you're able to kill the trader). A good trader will be in an evade setup, it will be full def and it will have outside buffs against your soon to be negative attack rating. It will have 40m range and it will in most of the scenarios drain you before you even get close.

    At the range of NR1 it's even better for the trader, you won't be likely to root or snare it and it won't need that many attempts to land the first drain since the NR gained is easily countered with predrains and mochams.
    General of Horizon. Member of Unity. Frequent visitor of Free Spirits and The Last Element.

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  8. #328
    To be fair, those Traders are insanely well twinked. That's like saying "Amagawd a player who's BETTER than me killed me! I don't like this! IMMA play CALL OF DUTY!".
    TL2 twinks tend to have over 1k NR, and before nanites, the drains have insane cast/recharge times. You can argue that a Trader does indeed recieve the most benefit from having the "first hit" advantage, but it's easy to beat a Trader with a high minimum damage gun, which can fire quickly and basically kill the Trader while it's attempting to stop it. MPs and Shades are other professions which you really, REALLY want to get the first hit on.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    Don't say "The prof with the highest NCU can get the biggest buffs!" because ironically, the most IP-effective setup has the least amount of NCU needed
    Not sure what you're trying to say here but I think what your saying doesn't seem very relevant anyways. A person can still spend their IP effectively and have lots of NCU. If the most IP-effective setups result in the least needed NCU's, then I can assure you that no one is making a twink with the most IP-effective setup in mind for lowbie PVP. People know the value of OSB's for PVP at that level and that value is evident by the popularity of traders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    Traders are only overpowered in certain scenarios.
    Ideally, no profession should be OP'ed in ANY scenario. Realistically, there is no reason that frequently and persistent scenarios should result in a preferred profession like it does for traders. You can do all the theorycrafting you want. Your theories aren't inline with the reality of the game.
    Last edited by Obtena; Aug 17th, 2012 at 01:55:02.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    To be fair, those Traders are insanely well twinked. That's like saying "Amagawd a player who's BETTER than me killed me! I don't like this! IMMA play CALL OF DUTY!".
    Two equally twinked characters, one is a Trader, the other is anything else excluding dedicated trader killer toons like nr agents, the trader will win every time below tl3, most of the time at tl3 and up.
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  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Ideally, no profession should be OP'ed in ANY scenario.
    Having played different "well balanced" games, I have come to the conclusion that balance is boring. However games like AO where a few professions are OPed against ALL others in ALL scenarios is frustrating to say the least. What funcom should aim for is to find that balance between balance and OP, and still keep it fun.

    How the hell can they do that? Well, one suggestion I like is to remove the "a few professions are OPed against ALL others in ALL scenarios" and replace it with "a character of a profession is OPed against another character of a different profession ONLY as long as his setup trumps the opponents". Meaning that if I get my ass handed to me by traders all the time (regardless of what profession I am atm) I should be able to change my setup, so that I would trump traders the next time I face them.

    But setting yourself up to trump another profession, must have the drawback that you get more vulnerable to other professions.
    General of First Order

  12. #332
    Well, I'm not arguing for complete balance here ... I'm arguing that there shouldn't be one profession that trumps everyone else. There is obviously an issue when only a few professions from over a dozen can be considered for lowbie NW.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  13. #333
    This thread is pretty much useless. If you read the proposed changes to trader you would realize, that the drain lines will have a multiplied NaCost, 15 duration on target, and last several minutes on the caster.

    All the arguments have already been addressed and solved.
    Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    it's written in the bible.
    Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
    A Producer's point of view

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    This thread is pretty much useless. If you read the proposed changes to trader you would realize, that the drain lines will have a multiplied NaCost, 15 duration on target, and last several minutes on the caster.

    All the arguments have already been addressed and solved.
    Neither of which helps the game in it's current state, I'm sure the rebalance will be here eventually but in the meantime they could sit down and add some fixes to lower level traders.

    Spend a day or two on it, I'm sure a large amount of the community would love it, since it has been a hot topic since I started playing.
    General of Horizon. Member of Unity. Frequent visitor of Free Spirits and The Last Element.

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    Rafeg
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  15. #335
    Bump
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  16. #336
    Bump
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  17. #337
    Since you bumped this.. I posted a few times about drains in pvp. Lower level drains were fine, traders weren't even the strongest profession self buffed it was enfs for the longest time. Outside buffs were the problem with low level pvp and most notably with traders . Overall especially at higher levels the drains lasted too long so nano resist would only need to be checked once or twice to decide the fight with easily spammable drains. Traders still dominate towers because they can stack ridiculous amounts of buffs to increase their survivability.

    The other things outside buffs did to low level pvp was make a lot of professions obsolete, fixers HoTs were useless because everyone got HnQ, engi's reflects were useless cause everyone had RRFE.

    The best way to make low level tower fights diverse and fun is to remove outside buffs from it and if people want buffs from other professions they team up with people of that level to do so. People would roll/play fixers to give their team RS, people would roll and play soldiers/engis to give their team reflects. People would use docs to heal their team rather than rely on HnQ! People wouldn't be nigh on invincible without even putting any decent defenses on their character due to RRFE, Behe, omni med, HnQ.

    This is in my opinion the only way to redeem this pvp range.. Even if you nerf traders into the ground, it'd still be horribly broken with few worthwhile characters.

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