Debuffs: Do they enhance your pvp experiance?

[Armus]

Every single profession can remove them in a few seconds. Indefinitely.

While this is true, all classes can use purifying rods, those have a recharge ofcourse. A long one. While roots can be spammed.

A good nt/fixer/crat/trader or agent will use this to the fullest ofcourse.
You stand there clicking free movements. The guy comes back and roots you again.
And goes away for 15 secs. Comes back and does the same again.
Eventually the zerg finds you and by then your defences are down and so you die inside a second.

All top roots have a duration of about 280 seconds. That means 4 clicks if you are using ql 200 FM's, and most ppl don't. Which translates into 20 seconds before you are free.
So saying that almost everyone can get out of a root in a matter of seconds just isn't true.

[crattey]

All top roots have a duration of about 280 seconds. That means 4 clicks if you are using ql 200 FM's, and most ppl don't. Which translates into 20 seconds before you are free. .

Yes well, I use ql25 carb for armour. Is that a proper reason for me to say we need some love?

If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it.

I'd like free ql300 AI armour too, but I have to spend some effort to get it. I spent far less effort getting high QL FM stims, but still did it, because ironically, they are more useful than my professional toolset.


I'm getting sick and tired of the 'kiters / OSB' attitude. Too many people these days expect everything to be handed to them. Here's what seperates the actual PvPers from the welfare crowd: PvPers spend time to perfect their setup, most of the people posting in this thread want it for free.

[Wrangeline]

Yes well, I use ql25 carb for armour. Is that a proper reason for me to say we need some love?

If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it.

I'd like free ql300 AI armour too, but I have to spend some effort to get it. I spent far less effort getting high QL FM stims, but still did it, because ironically, they are more useful than my professional toolset.

I don't quite understand where you are coming from crattey. You say that you don't like the current design and that durations, immunities and so on is silly. Yet whenever you get the chance, you go against people that comment on the same things that you supposedly don't like.

What exactly do you want?

You say: "If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it". Should people get used to that or should we try and change the design?

Comparing armor with stims and such usable and spendable items isn't quite correct in my eyes. Getting good gear is a one time thing that you do to directly improve your character and no matter what, you will bring that with you at all times. This is what MMO's are built and based on. Keeping a big stock at all times of usable and spendable items that cannot be found in normal shops is extra work just for the sake of extra work. It makes PvP less accessible for a lot of people. So why then are you comparing it to armor, as if this design that you supposedly don't like is just as reasonable as what gear people are wearing?

I'm just confused that's all. Are you defending the current design or are you not? If you are trying to say that while the current system is in place, people should take advantage of the tools they CAN get at their disposal, then that's a bit besides the point here. We all know there are tools we can use. That's not the issue here at all.

And when you say: "I spent far less effort getting high QL FM stims, but still did it, because ironically, they are more useful than my professional toolset", that's just a clear indication that something is horribly wrong with the current system.

[Wrangeline]

I'm getting sick and tired of the 'kiters / OSB' attitude. Too many people these days expect everything to be handed to them. Here's what seperates the actual PvPers from the welfare crowd: PvPers spend time to perfect their setup, most of the people posting in this thread want it for free.

No, that's just plain wrong.

No one is asking for a well geared character for free. No one is asking to get out of roots for "free". We're asking for durations and spamability to be reasonable and properly balanced for PvP so that people don't have to deal with the completely and utterly arbitrary task of farming anti-CC tools. Something which will make this game more enjoyable and accessible, not just for us but for new players and average players as well.

There's a massive difference.

One last thing, and this is important:

Being a "real pvper" or "not" is rubbish. You only want people to have fun PvPing if they are hardcore PvPers that spend their time farming high ql stims and rods and such crap? Why? Everyone that wants to PvP can do so. Labeling people as PvPers or PvM'ers (or welfare crowd) or such is not doing this game any good.

There's a good reason for people to try to get good equipment. It's one of the main cornerstones of this game. There's no reason to have people do boring and repetitive gameplay just to get stacks of stuff to combat long lasting and spammable CC.

What do you want?

[Juzzif]

Yes well, I use ql25 carb for armour. Is that a proper reason for me to say we need some love?

If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it.

I'd like free ql300 AI armour too, but I have to spend some effort to get it. I spent far less effort getting high QL FM stims, but still did it, because ironically, they are more useful than my professional toolset.


I'm getting sick and tired of the 'kiters / OSB' attitude. Too many people these days expect everything to be handed to them. Here's what seperates the actual PvPers from the welfare crowd: PvPers spend time to perfect their setup, most of the people posting in this thread want it for free.

Store only sell QL 125 afaik?


But I don't have so much problem with roots as with drains and init debuffs and nano shutdown programs and not to mention blinds... These are the true frustrating debuffs

[crattey]

I don't quite understand where you are coming from crattey. You say that you don't like the current design and that durations, immunities and so on is silly. Yet whenever you get the chance, you go against people that comment on the same things that you supposedly don't like.

Read one of the first posts I made in this topic, before it got derailed by people turning it into another silly whinefest.

I want CC to be functional. This means shorter durations and non-spammable. But it also means getting rid of immunities and instant removers. It also means they don't break faster than I can cast them, thanks to being a dual-wielding pet class and roots having a 20%+ chance to break on attack.

What I want as far as this thread is concerned, is for people to stop making up false claims and pretending as though CC is OP. It's not.

Is it fun to be CCd? Well, that depends on your views of what PvP should be like. I can imagine most people have gotten used to steamrolling their way to victory, and are deeply offended when someone dares to try and stop them, but getting killed or slowed down is a part of PvP.

Can you imagine how these people would bitch and whine if CC was actually functional? I mean, we even have enforcers complaining about roots. A professions that's nigh immune to them, and can remove them faster than I can spam them. Imagine having WoW-like root effects that actually force them to stand there for a few seconds.


Even GTH isn't OP. Without GTH, a trader would never kill a doctor or NT. Is that balanced? Yeah, it's a silly design, but there's a difference between ****ty mechanics and OP. A difference that seems to go completely unnoticed on most people these days.

Stun procs weren't OP either. I hated them because of their random luck factor. With it, crats could kill a doctor or NT if they got lucky. Without it, good luck. With it, that enforcer couldn't kite my pets around indefinitely and I actually stood a chance of killing him if his defenses were down. Without, he just walks off when his alpha fails. Etc, etc, etc.

Yet all the bitching and moaning from people who don't like to die got stun procs removed, with us getting nothing in return. That's what I don't like. The major whinefest got stun procs removed. With them gone, the faceroll professions have now started whining about roots. And these devs are certainly capable of tossing them out, too, if they feel it makes PvP more newbie-friendly.

[Juzzif]

Why not make roots on a short cooldown, keep all that removes it.. Make it shorter, but make the nano recharge of the actual nano 0.1 seconds so that you won't be in recharge longer than the root lasts on your enemy..

[Wrangeline]

@crattey: Ah I see. I understand what you're saying

[crattey]

Store only sell QL 125 afaik?


But I don't have so much problem with roots as with drains and init debuffs and nano shutdown programs and not to mention blinds... These are the true frustrating debuffs

And that means you have to get them another way, that takes more than 5 seconds Same goes for first aid stims, treatment kits, etc.

That being said, I'm actually not opposed to stores selling higher QLs. I just don't think the fact that they don't is an excuse for not having them.


Init debuffs and such are quite easily removed, bar the crat red tapes ones, which is simply a silly oversight on FCs part. Their duration is long, true. Then again, unlike in any other game, most professions are hardly affected by them to begin with, since they only affect casting/regular attacks, not perks or specials.

In the same way, NSD isn't that major. Sucks for casters, doesn't even affect others.

Same rule applies however. If we were to remove stuns, NSD, drains and init debuffs, some profession would be immortal. Other professions would loose all their ability to kill.
They are not imbalanced, just poorly designed counters to poorly designed toolsets.

FC simply has had a horribly track record when it comes to PvP thus far. While some dev teams seemed to literally hate it, others have shown huge bias towards certain playstyles, such as Sil and his 'let's make with more facerolling, it's fun when you die in 2 seconds over and over'. Yet others have taken the oppurtunity to completely redesign their favourite profession by adding blockers/AS to their personal sandbox. All of them have so far continuesly bashed roots/snares further into submission, with nearly every patch for years now adding more and more immunities.

I'm curious where Means will end up.

[crattey]

Why not make roots on a short cooldown, keep all that removes it.. Make it shorter, but make the nano recharge of the actual nano 0.1 seconds so that you won't be in recharge longer than the root lasts on your enemy..

And remove the break on hit chance and replace it by a damage limit.
Remove the fact that every melee profession can get nearly or completely immune. Remove innate resistances. Keeper + advy buffs stack to 48% before even counting in other gear, SD perks. Roots should land reliably.
Remove all the generic removal tools, bar perhaps MoTR and the likes, with huge cooldowns.
Only keep removal tools for some professions, and keep the cooldowns in line with cooldowns on roots.

Roots are meant to stick. They are meant to be able to assist in killing you. It's the way CC professions PvP.

Root removal or enhanced removal should be a perk you get when pairing with certain professions who have access to root removal tools. Much like getting healed is a perk of teaming with a doctor.

[crattey]

Ah, to clarify, for those who still don't get my point of view:

Take a soldier's AMS.

It's a retarded design. It makes soldiers have a very long term defensive mode during which they are quite literally unkillable by a good number of professions, and even a combination of multiple professions. there's not a single strategic aspect in here. You use it the second someone points a gun at you, and run away when it ends. It's made soldiers into a silly easymode nobrainer professions.

Is it OP? No. Due to the nature of a soldier's defensive toolset, a short duration AMS, or a partly, say 50% reflect, AMS would mean they get steamrolled by virtually everyone.

Roots are similar to this. As is most of the tools in this game. They're not OPd, they're a seriously design flaw. Roots are currently either completely useless, or they are spammable and just downright silly. They are broken, not OPd. They are broken, not OPd. Need I say it again?

[Armus]

Yes well, I use ql25 carb for armour. Is that a proper reason for me to say we need some love?

If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it.

I'd like free ql300 AI armour too, but I have to spend some effort to get it. I spent far less effort getting high QL FM stims, but still did it, because ironically, they are more useful than my professional toolset.


I'm getting sick and tired of the 'kiters / OSB' attitude. Too many people these days expect everything to be handed to them. Here's what seperates the actual PvPers from the welfare crowd: PvPers spend time to perfect their setup, most of the people posting in this thread want it for free.

200 fm's aren't store buyable though afaik. Only up to ql 125. With those it takes 30 secs to get out of a root.

Even with 275 fm's it takes 15 seconds to get out of a root.
Far from "a few seconds" that you claim.

[crattey]

200 fm's aren't store buyable though afaik. Only up to ql 125. With those it takes 30 secs to get out of a root.

Even with 275 fm's it takes 15 seconds to get out of a root.
Far from "a few seconds" that you claim.

15 seconds let's you pop 4 free movements. Please point out to me which 8 minute root you find most annoying.

Crats perma-rooting whilst simultaneously killing you is a myth. Roots have a 20-25% chance to break on attack. With crats being a dual-wield profession, and having two attack pets, that pretty much means we break our own roots once every second. That's quite literally faster than we cast them. Let alone simultaneously cast all of our other massively OPd debuffs on you, whilst also running circles and nuking.

Crats leaving you rooted and running off, well, grats, you stand there for 10 seconds. Big deal. Beats having to rebuff after getting steamrolled by some walking MR totem.

And again, this is only mentioning free movements. I'm ignoring all other tools to get out of roots. I'm ignoring the fact that NR can counter roots. I'm ignoring that many professions have high innate resistances.

And I'm ignoring the simple fact that some professions are vulnerable to CC, so it's generally not a good idea to go up against a CC profession solo. I realize people like to have the best of everything, but getting killed in PvP is a rather natural thing to occur.

[crattey]

200 fm's aren't store buyable though afaik. Only up to ql 125. With those it takes 30 secs to get out of a root.

Even with 275 fm's it takes 15 seconds to get out of a root.
Far from "a few seconds" that you claim.

You say: "If you want to PvP, get used to the fact that slacking off with store-bought FM stims doesn't cut it". Should people get used to that or should we try and change the design?

Again, I am not opposed to store buyable stims being of higher QL.

However, people are going about it assbackwards in this topic.

If you don't want to go through the effort of getting the stims, you might just have to deal with that, or try and get FC to make them more readily available. Asking for roots to be nerfed because of the current stim situation is just silly. It's not a proper reason.

[Armus]

Again, I am not opposed to store buyable stims being of higher QL.

However, people are going about it assbackwards in this topic.

If you don't want to go through the effort of getting the stims, you might just have to deal with that, or try and get FC to make them more readily available. Asking for roots to be nerfed because of the current stim situation is just silly. It's not a proper reason.

I'm not saying they should be nerfed across the board in every sense. But saying that next to everyone can break roots like you did here is NOT correct.
And someone has to tell you when you're making things up like that.

Now.. I'd suggest that durations are shortened significantly and perhaps put a hardcap on how much root resist you can get.

I would also suggest adding quite a bit of NR to the profs that got nothing in that area since SL.

In all this would make the really hard to root profs easier to root and the ones that are easy today harder.

[crattey]

I'm not saying they should be nerfed across the board. But saying that next to everyone can break roots like you did here is NOT correct.
And someone has to tell you when you're making things up like that.

You're wrong. Still. On pretty much everything you say.

Everyone can break roots. Certain breed and profession combinations make it easier, but everyone has acces to multiple ways to instantly break roots. Everyone has acces to tools that remove roots in a short time. Yes, some of these have long cooldowns. Yes, some of these take some effort to obtain. Yes, some of these require you to sacrifice to some degree in terms of equipment or perks. Congratulations, it's called making a strategic choice. Why people expect to be able to do everything, all the time, without any costs is beyond me.

I'm not going through the list of ways to remove or break roots. If you don't know them, you shouldn't even be here discussing the topic, as you are clearly ignorant when it comes to PvP, let alone accuse me of making up facts.

The ease of obtaining these items is irrelevant in this regard. Some people will always go through the trouble of getting these items. Nerfing roots would only make these people even less susceptible to them.

I would also suggest adding quite a bit of NR to the profs that got nothing in that area since SL.

Adding more NR only adds to the problem. NR is a broken mechanic, when paired with the current spammability of many nanos, and should be fixed before raising or lowering it.

Now.. I'd suggest that durations are shortened significantly and perhaps put a hardcap on how much root resist you can get.

Shortening durations on roots in their current form makes them entirely pointless. If a single Free Movement removes them, they are useless. Their duration is not the issue.

In all this would make the really hard to root profs easier to root and the ones that are easy today harder.

No. It would make some profession become entirely impossible to CC. It would make everyone else mostly useless to CC.

That of course, is the way a lot of people in this thread would like to see things be. In which case, play some game that revolves around pewpew'ing and nothing else.
MMOs are more varied than just shooting at one another. CC is a vital aspect of every MMO worth it's salt. In AO, it's badly implemented. That doesn't mean you should remove it entirely.

[IHaveHugeNick]

You're calling docs and soldiers flavor of the month now?

More like flavour of the year by now, but yes

[howlin]

You missed the point. Defenses against physical attacks are relativelive much better from the start. And many profs have great ways of negating or evading these attacks. You mentioned team blockers. Then there is the 400 aad aura as well as a big pile of other nanos that help your def.

There are many items that will let pretty much any prof evade most attacks even from high ar profs. But there is literally no items that add nr. Add to that how some symb sets have almost no NR and you get the picture. There is just very little defence against these debuffs.

And as we are in a team pvp environment there should be similar adds to NR as there has been to other defences.

omg, a 400 AAD aura?
Guess what, team a crat too.
You are not supposed to win a BS round SOLO!
Even if you are a soldier.
Only QQ wins solo against zerg.

[Armus]

omg, a 400 AAD aura?
Guess what, team a crat too.
You are not supposed to win a BS round SOLO!
Even if you are a soldier.
Only QQ wins solo against zerg.

We were talking about NR. How would teaming a crat improve my NR?

[IHaveHugeNick]

We were talking about NR. How would teaming a crat improve my NR?

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