What makes Enforcers OP in your opinion?

[crattey]

AAD-setup on enf is extremely viable to reduce the dmg they take from FA.

I have a hard time capping FA on 'em even after LICC landed on fixer, and my pimped out trox enf mate with Wit said even a soldier needs over 3.5k static AR to start reliably hurting him.

Surely you are wrong here, since all enforcers here say there's no such thing as evade enforcers. Why on earth would an enforcer, in a thread that is made to downplay their abilities, make it out to seem less powerful than they actually are?

People never misrepresent matters on the internet. we even have the professional here to prove that evades are useless. He just hasn't managed to inform every single PvP enforcer yet, so they are all still running around in evade setups, completely sucking at PvP.

[Sterva]

I would love to hear in 5 sentences or less why any enforcer feels entitled to being unperkable by anyone. That would be awesome. I don't expect anything coherent, just something to chuckle about, so let'er rip.

[sultryvoltron]

No, he sucks like I said. He A) facerolled perks into an OSBd enf or one with highway up or B) he is calling himself a defensive agent when he is really just an agent without any offense.

Defensive setup agents do not have 2600 attack rating and call themselves "endgame".

It's a good thing you know so much about my toon. Like level, gear, playstyle, etc.

You don't want our opinions of why enfs are OP. You just want to argue about why you deserve all the defenses you have. The rest of us say no and you throw up walls of text defending why you need 3500 NR, 2800 Def, and 40k HP 100% of the time you play with absolutely no downtimes on your defense.

[Klod9003]

Anyone ever run into low HP enfo? These can be tricky as hell.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

anytime anyone ever mentions def setup enf's I laugh and fart at the same time.

Enfs having ANY evades whatesoever is absolute hogwash.

1. they have 2x more HP than they need
2. they have craploads of killing power
3. they have retardedly high NR
4. they have the GTFO magic button
5. they have great healing, reflects that work, coon and (cancel SL ess button, for full HP again, trick CH)

Now, why on earth should they have evades as well?

Most people who complain about enfs being OP'd ARENT talking about their *uber* evades, they are talking about the pain in the ass combination listed in those 5 points.

Enfs have way too much. Consider some other melee profs: MA has ok offense, crap HP, great healing, ok evades, no extra reflects or absorbs (and reflects don't work a lot of the time anyway), sub-par escape tactics. How about advy: great healing, ok offense, ok evades, absorbs, reflects, and great escape tactics.

The main problem with enfs is the HP and the GTFO button. enfs have so much HP, most profs will take a bloody long time to kill them, meaning, once they cancel SL ess, it's rage and GTFO and they rarely rarely lose a 1-1 encounter.

If enfs can either win or escape from nearly every 1-1 encounter, they are OP'd. Same with advy's, one of the biggest factors that not very many people take into account is the GTFO escape. When you can choose your fights, you will win more.

Thats why: roots/blinds, and advy/ enf/fixer escapism needs to be toned down

[crattey]

anytime anyone ever mentions def setup enf's I laugh and fart at the same time.

I used to have that problem. It was due to irritated bowels. I saw a doctor for it and he fixed me right up.

I'm proud of you for being so open about your condition. I remember the shame I felt when it happened to me in public. It took me a while to actually open up about it. Even with my best friends and family I had trouble bringing it up.

Then I fell in love with this amazing girl. She was really funny, and I was in constant fear of laughing out loud, in fear of her discovering my deep, dark, horrible secret. It took all of my courage to open up to her. She was really supportive, and even joined me when I went in to seek help.

Now, we are happy, and I rarely fart whilst laughing anymore. We have three children, none of whom suffer from my condition, which is a huge relief.

I feel so close to you now, knowing we have these shared experiences.

[Obtena]

I would love to hear in 5 sentences or less why any enforcer feels entitled to being unperkable by anyone. That would be awesome. I don't expect anything coherent, just something to chuckle about, so let'er rip.

We shouldn't but then again, everyone seems to be fixated on the fact that enfos are pushing 3400 AAD when the reality is that most don't. I find it also amusing that people have a problem with enfos not being perkable, but not other profs who have much higher static AAD ratings. I have about 2700 self with some swaps (which is what is relevant) and note the gear, it's not gimp. If I was atrox, add 300 AAD for Wit for 30 seconds. That's still what I would call 'moderate' but unperkable? Maybe I just play OPed professions so i'm biased but that's not a static number. Want to add Highway? Same thing applies. Regardless of it's duration, those things end at some point. So play your forum PVP all you want but the truth is eluding everyone who seem to be convinced that every enfo they PVP is a 3400 AAD unicorn.

Maybe this could be a more reasonable discussion if people weren't talking about PVPing the 1% of the enfo population that have achieved that with OSB's and towers. Once we get to this point, all of this is just rant and nonsense.

What people are losing sight of is that the AAD and evades we get comes from items with the exception of 2 specific items, everyone has access to these AAD items too. So sure, PLEASE nerf AAD items, PLEASE!!!!. I can't wait to watch you fools crying about how every gimp with no AR is hitting you in PVP and how enfos need to be nerfed because they are hitting everyone, including evaders. It would be my pleasure to necro this thread when that happens for a good long laugh.

[lostlife]

What people are losing sight of is that the AAD and evades we get comes from items with the exception of 2 specific items, everyone has access to these AAD items too. So sure, PLEASE nerf AAD items, PLEASE!!!!. I can't wait to watch you fools crying about how every gimp with no AR is hitting you in PVP and how enfos need to be nerfed because they are hitting everyone, including evaders. It would be my pleasure to necro this thread when that happens for a good long laugh.

was about to say something like this, but you beat me to it >.<
also, saying enfos have highway in pvp unless they are pvm set ups is unrealistic

[Autofil]

Alltho, what is easily noticable is that enfs preform so randomly in pvp, some are nearly impossibble to kill and some fall easier than a soccerplayer, even when their gear is equal as good.

No further explanation needed.

[Blackcradle]

What people are losing sight of is that the AAD and evades we get comes from items with the exception of 2 specific items, everyone has access to these AAD items too. So sure, PLEASE nerf AAD items, PLEASE!!!!. I can't wait to watch you fools crying about how every gimp with no AR is hitting you in PVP and how enfos need to be nerfed because they are hitting everyone, including evaders. It would be my pleasure to necro this thread when that happens for a good long laugh.

No. And wrong. What you (I mean you as in all the Enfs in this thread ignoring this exact same point everyone else keeps making over and over again) are losing sight of is that it's not necessarily the AAD/evades/def-rating that people have a problem with. It's the fact that you can get that combined with the rest of your various other tools. Great alpha and stuns, High runspeed, NR, the ability to clear debuffs even if they land, fears and then if someone has them on the ropes, they have the ability to just run off while there is nothing anyone can do about it (unless they happen to be an NT I guess). And no I am neither saying nor denying that Enfs are OP, or not OP. Just trying to clarify what has been stated for 9 pages now which every enfo conveniently can't comprehend.

[Obtena]

^^ And that's different from other profs? NO it's not. There is NOTHING that locks out other profs from using multiple defensive tactics at the same time. So now I'm telling you that's not a unique enfo trait, it makes enfos OPed but no one else? Simply amazing.

[Blackcradle]

Sure, lots of other profs can. So is that aspect different? No. No it's not. However are those other profs using multiple defense tactics at the same time generally as effective as an Enfos', while maintaining a respectable AR plus a nice alpha to boot? No. The obvious exception is Advys (although they have less alpha power) but I dont think I need to elaborate on them further. Also lots of profs really hardly have access to several defensive tactics simultaneously in a viable setup fyi.

[Drakeep]

Wouldn't it be better to align everyone on that multifaced defensive toolset enfs and advies got tho ? To cut the paper/scissor aspect ?

[Legion84]

I feel Enforcers are powered for these reasons:

Title Level 2
1) Perfectly capable of OD'ing a 49 Martial Artist with Mortiig Beater, Howlet, Cleavers, and Panther. And we're supposed to OD these guys?
2) Access to second Rage for extreme RunSpeed, NanoResist, and Inits.
3) Access to second Mongo for 106-point HOT.
4) Access to absorb nanos, Foremans tank, Bio Cocoon.
5) Access to the longest duration fear.
6) Capable of reaching 5000 HP, 6000 HP with Albtraum Wen-Wen.

Title Level 7
1) APF Rage gives them WAY too much RS/NR.
2) Access to iMongo for 510-point HOT.
3) Access to 2 sets of perks (1hb/1he), plus SneakAttack.
4) Can get way too much AAD.


The problem I find with enforcers is that while they have a strong defensive toolset (and they definitely should, as a tank class) their PVP offense is way too strong. They should be like a weapon-bound doctor: taking the hits while wearing their opponent down, instead of smacking them into last Tuesday then running away.

Great reply, some good points but if they remove them they end up like a weaker Keeper like they used to be, and i've got both melee classes at TL7 218enf/220 keeper! the HOT for imongo was already nerfed if i remember right.. they got AAD because they dropped way to fast on BS against anything which sucks (high HP is a disadvantage why should it be?) 1hb perks rule out 1he perks? and i think Rage is getting a cool down to soon, just my thought of TL7 i'd be pissed tbh if they nerf enf after they already did that to my beloved keeper :/...

TL2 maybe just give some remove nano rings? no pool no nano casts :P

On another note, they got some love this is what they got and a little nerf after... they needed love they dropped to fast it was heartbreaking seeing some 220 big bad enf drop in a split second to a soldier/agent.. it wasn't fun it wasn't FAIR! now why not NERF advy since they got everything every other proffessions have almost!

[Gatester]

Profs that can perk a defense setup enforcer:

Adventurer
Agent
Enforcer
Fixer
Keeper
Martial Artist
Nano-Technician
Shade
Soldier
Trader

Profs that might be unable to perk a defense setup enforcer:

Crat
Engineer
MP

Profs that can perk an offensive setup enforcer:

Adventurer
Agent
Crat
Enforcer
Engineer
Fixer
Keeper
Martial Artist
MP
Nano-Technician
Shade
Soldier
Trader

So what is the problem again? Towers or OSBs?

I have no problem with people complaining about our CC breaking ability and high NR and capped runspeed. I have no problem with people having issues about our stuns and init debuffs. I have no problem nerfing our alpha damage if it is too much AFTER rebalancing. I DO have issues about people trying to drive this point of enforcers having evade profession defense. I have stated time and again the static defense an end game enforcer will have, and most of you are telling me that it is too much. If you want to argue there is too much AAD floating around period, well hell you have an entire profession of support with enforcers who can't perk half of you guys anymore.

I have a shade, the lowest AR profession in both the infantry and ranged professions, yet I perk enfocers 100% of the time. Support professions have no viable argument for perking ANY profession with weapon line perks.

So the biggest complaint now, besides enforcers being impossible to perk...is that all our defenses together are OP, and we are the only profession with mutliple defensive tools besides advy so we need a massive nerf? Well we already excluded advy so im gonna do the same thing everyone has done to enfs with other profs.

Advy: No point completely OP and miles ahead of enforcers.

Agent: 10000 heal, 3k static def+ too much def for a prof with high killing power, 27 or 30% reflects, highest runspeed profession, CC removal tools and CC immunity, highest conceal in game, high perception to spot attackers, snare perks to assist with kiting.

Crat: Unperkable, roots, snares, CC removal tools, CiB, crit immunity, stuns, massive init debuffs, unremovable init debuffs.

Doctor: 14000 healing every 4 seconds, massive healing perks, static debuff resistances, debuff removal tools, massive init debuffs, generally infinite nano pool, 23000-30000 max health, impossible to kill for some profs, difficult to kill with multiple players.

Enforcers: High max health, high healing ability, too much AAD, unperkable, high NR, bio cocoon, bio rejuvination, highest runspeed profession, absorbs, CC removal tool.

Engineer: Bio cocoon, 7 special blockers, Bio rejuvination healing, 27% reflects, 14% reflect proc, snare aures, snare mines, debuff mines, blind aura.

Fixer: High healing ability (almost can't even bring myself to type that), immune to crits, CC immunity, CC removal tools, Debuff resistance, Debuff removal tools, roots, snares, highest runspeed profession, overpowered static def, CiB to make them immune to even Mongo Rage attacks, fear immunity.

Keeper: Too much AAD for a tanking profession, unperkable therefore OP, high healing ability, ward blocker, AAO debuffs, high max health, CC resistance, possible CC immunity, fear immunity, bio cocoon, bio rejuvination.

Martial artist: Unperkable, CiB, Stun Immunity, CC immunitty, CC removal, can perk NR1 or 2 and cast almost all nanos, can reach 4000+ nano resist, highest runspeed profession, stuns, massive init debuffs, high healing ability, immune to crits.

MP: 30% reflect shield, unperkable, high evade profession, spec blockers/immunity, high healing ability, nano shutdown abilities, mezz pet for rooting, infinite nano, debuff removal tools.

NT: NBG, NBS, damage to nano ability, absorbs, 5000 nm absorb (all NT's are nanomage right?), roots, snares, NS1 and 2, CC removal tools, infinite nano, can perk NR1 maybe 2, high NR, debuffing abilities, AOE blinds, too much evades and damage mitigation for a glass cannon.

Shade: Stun procs, init debuffs, unperkable, CiB, crit immunity, highest runspeed profession, CC removal tools, possible CC immunity, high healing ability, high concealment, nano draining abilities, AAO drains.

Soldier: 95% reflects, high healing ability (especially when they only take 5% damage), too much evades for a tanking prof, unperkable by some professions, snare proc, init debuff immunity.

Trader: BR, damage to nano ability, GTH, infinite nano, high healing ability (3rd highest Id say), massive AR reducing ability, forces opponents into OE, nanoskill removing abilities, YEEIF, roots, snares, too much AAD and evades, unperkable after draining, shutdown skills, crit reducer/immunity, CC removal tools.


Well, it looks like almost everyone is OP when you just say things without any actual numbers or facts. I think there may be more than 2 professions with multiple defenses too. Or maybe, kinda what enforcers are trying to do in this thread, just because all this stuff looks nice on paper doesn't actually mean its working that well in game? We all do this to every profession in these forums, and one of the points of this thread is to clear these issues and complaints up.

Some parts of the enforcer toolset works, some parts are over the top, but can you guys get a clue about enforcer evades already? If 99.9% of enforcers are telling you the evades are not making us gods could you try to believe it? I have more reason to complain about my regularly proclaimed high AR profession being unable to perk most people in this game than you have of complaining about my 3rd lowest defense in game.



And a final note if you even read this far, there is an issue with our bio cocoon perk that players outside the enf profession don't even know. Besides the horrible nerf to the cocoon, there is a bug preventing us from using our regular absorbs for the 30 second duration of cocoon even after we cancel it. We lose our main damage mitigation tool after one capping special.

[sultryvoltron]

Some parts of the enforcer toolset works, some parts are over the top, but can you guys get a clue about enforcer evades already? If 99.9% of enforcers are telling you the evades are not making us gods could you try to believe it?

And if 99.9% of everyone else is telling you that you have more evades than you deserve, it becomes my word versus your word and it's all going nowhere. I said like 5 pages ago that I think it's retarded of FC to just throw AAD at everyone. I also never claimed it was enf specific, and I'm not clammoring to nerf enf defense into oblivion. What would be good for the game is to move around and add new defenses for minimal (if any) net loss. It's common in this game for professions to push 3k defenses, which is just plain silly. In fact, I would wager that any profession in game can break 3k defenses with GSF only. There's problems with that the extend far beyond enfs.

Just for emphasis though, when you give ~2700-2800 def on an Enf, maybe grab some OBs and break 3k, Enfs have an unstoppable defense. They avoid enough damage from big specials like FA, they dodge loads of perks, and what little damage is soaked up by their absorbs, HP, and Mongo HoT. Others don't have that luxury, so every little bit of damage that makes it through is dangerous.

I'm also of the opinion that Agents shouldn't push 3k def. Neither should NTs (should get relative def from blinds), or Traders (should get relative def from drains), or Advys, or Keepers on the Dodge Stat, or non-Shield MPs, or Soldiers. But, maybe this game is going to just be about bigger and bigger numbers, and not about more challenge and skill.

And a final note if you even read this far, there is an issue with our bio cocoon perk that players outside the enf profession don't even know. Besides the horrible nerf to the cocoon, there is a bug preventing us from using our regular absorbs for the 30 second duration of cocoon even after we cancel it. We lose our main damage mitigation tool after one capping special.

I've never had this problem. Can you give more detail about how to reproduce it? Don't care if it's here or in a PM. After coon is eaten through I always cancel it in my NCU and start throwing up regular layers. It's seemed to work fine for me.

[Autofil]

Snip.

Thats a fine list you made there, listing up the different classes toolsets.
It might be relevant if you could describe how it is used and explain why those tools are overpowered.

Let me try how.

NT: NBG, NBS, damage to nano ability, absorbs, 5000 nm absorb (all NT's are nanomage right?), roots, snares, NS1 and 2, CC removal tools, infinite nano, can perk NR1 maybe 2, high NR, debuffing abilities, AOE blinds, too much evades and damage mitigation for a glass cannon.

*NBG locks NBS for 30 mins. NBS locks NBG + NBG for 30 mins making NBS toaly useless.
*Nanomage absorb can be used by all nanomages, not just NT's. Enfs got a similar tool.
*Since when did NT's get snares?
*Everyone ingame can easily get immunity for root for a set amount of time, and most classes got some way to get out of it. You can also get rods from temple to instantly remove it.
*NS1 and NS2 got a global lockout, it allso locks you out of using LE nukes.
*NT's can only remove roots iirc.
*Infinite nano until you run into a trader or are in NBG cooldown, got any idea how long it takes to refill 45-50k nano?
*Everyone can perk NR1-2, this hurt a NT as much as it would for a enf or any other toon.
*CB (Nr Debuff) is a tool NT is reliant on to land any perks.
*Everyone can get 110% resistant to blinds.
*About 3.1k static def, most people can get more AR.

[Perskules]

Fixer: High healing ability (almost can't even bring myself to type that), immune to crits, CC immunity, CC removal tools, Debuff resistance, Debuff removal tools, roots, snares, highest runspeed profession, overpowered static def, CiB to make them immune to even Mongo Rage attacks, fear immunity.

fixer dont have highest runspeed, adv/enf got more. and root/snares are useless vs msot profs because of high nr and resist/removal tools. those 1hb/1he enfs can kill fixers pretty easy normal hits, few perk lands when dof down +dimach +sa. healing ablity not really so high with high def we can heal some damage but if get perked dead fixer. and when you see mongo rage text on top of your enemys head dont have time run Deceptive Stance anymore. only can try stun perk and run

MP: 30% reflect shield, unperkable, high evade profession, spec blockers/immunity, high healing ability, nano shutdown abilities, mezz pet for rooting, infinite nano, debuff removal tools.

all MPs dont run with Zset. and every1 can disable shield mp damage jsut by killing his pets or debuffing them.
and Mps only can perk soldiers and gimps with they perks
bow mp is perkable by agent/trader/enf/keeper/sold/fix/crat/adv/shade/nt/ma.
1216 .. 1694 on 7.5s isnt really high healing even combined with survival.
mezz pet is totally useless atm. cant root anything and root braking on first hit.
only debuff removal tool is nsd removal perks
using blokekrs giving you 30s recharge every1 time when casting it

Soldier: 95% reflects, high healing ability (especially when they only take 5% damage), too much evades for a tanking prof, unperkable by some professions, snare proc, init debuff immunity.

yeah with ams sold can stand but when its down dead soldier.
what evades? havent seen any evade sold who can actually dodge/evade something.
perkable by all professions.
snare proc who still using dshark?
init debuff immunity? who really using 2x those alb items just to resist doc ubt? all other init debuffs lands even with those.

[kickboxer74]

Martial artist: highest runspeed profession

It's 1st April already?


@ Considering the enf debate (this not aimed to Gatester):

I don't consider enfs to have OP:ed defense, they have the defense they SHOULD have being the game's official and obvious tank-prof.

However, what I feel is a bit over the top is the good alpha they have, which in combination with the good AAD (which they are entitled to) makes them perhaps too good.

If they just make a few changes to "rage" I think they may be fine after that.

[crattey]

Large list of all professions like that always fail extremely hard due to biased opinions and a lack of understanding.

Gaetster fails twice as hard, since he accuses everyone here of not understanding the enforcer profession as well as he does, because he has more experience playing one, then continues to post a silly list of hugely generalized and onesided -opinions- about every other profession.

This thread isn't going anywhere.

On one hand there's the enforcers, headed by Gatester and, ironically, the Enf professional, who downplay every single enforcer ability and take every comment as a frontal assault on their profession.

On the other hand there's people bringing up non-existing or entirely irrelevant 'facts' about enforcers..

I'm really curious why the mods slap down everyone they think is 'mean' to a bunch of intarweb pixels, but allow the entire forum to be dragged down by retarded discussions like this. The entire balance forum fails horribly.