NSD removal perks suggestion

[Mountaingoat]

Keep the removal perks, but the soon to be 10s immunity (getting "fixed") after using them is a bit much. If the removal perks are removed, then realistically so should NSD. Shortening and lowering the check is pointless since eNSD already exists... I like the way NSD and eNSD are situational currently.

And NSD is quite balanced atm in my opinion. Getting more NR is very effective against reg NSD (compared to GTH), and on full def with 3190 nano init I have about a 7s cycle for 8.5 attempts every minute. Resisting 8-9 160% check nanos a minute is entirely possible. By the way, I can cast NSD...after NSD'ing myself (reg NSD not eNSD) and I'm sure drained traders can still cast decent stuff too.

[Cryfreman]

Hey,

MP vs crat : crat lost pet control, d bet you got enough heal to survive AS spam, /win ?

why would the pets stop attacking if you landed nsd?

There is also the fact that if you are standing there trying to cast nsd on a crat, so probably without blockers means the crat will kill you within seconds.


as for NT V MP, yeah would be strange to actually kill the prof we are ment to kill, instead of a very very low( as in 0) chance.

also, can I have more NT's like you on bs thay dont perk nanodoc??. thanks.

[Drakeep]

I have yet to see a MP using regular NSD over eNSD in BS. I very very rarely go to NW. And /duel MP just for the fun. Result : Nano doc = pointless to me

(Yeah, might be wrong, i tought pet was goin OE if the master were to lost enough nanoskills ? Or you saying they keep attacking even if master lost control ? might be an issue to my assomptions indeed =

Anything else ?

[Klod9003]

That said, if you don't mind (never tried a MP in tl7 pvp), enlight me on the following situations, please, after assuming NSD removal perk are out of the picture :

OK. Just my thoughts of how things can happen inc...

MP vs Agent fp doc : once NSD land, depending how soon in the fight it does, agent sounds like easy kill ?

Kill the MP before he kills you? Snare pet, snare MP, get out of LoS/range until NSD is down, heal, come back...

MP vs Doc : you probably have lot more time to land your NSD here, since doc deals less dmg - then you win ?

High NR on doc, landed UBT might make things complicated, good docs can still CH under regular NSD...

MP vs NT : bam ? (can't be worse then versus NT)

The only profession that deserve 1 NSD removal perk.

I believe, good ones can cast Nullity Sphere MK I/II (14-19 sec immunity) under regular NSD (needs confirmation).

MP vs crat : crat lost pet control, d bet you got enough heal to survive AS spam, /win ?

AS is getting nerfed, pets stay on the target even if master is NSD-ed, lack of CC tools on MP side, ability to use stun and snare perk (75% NR def check, psychology as attack skill - not affected by NSD) to get out of range/LoS for the duration.

Need info on highest possible Psychology numbers on crat.

MP vs MP : dunno, no more pet control again, enlight me...

Pets work the same after NSD, if they started attack before it's casted. Pillow fight (since AS is getting nerfed)?

MP vs Traders : bet they have lot more chance to GTH / drain your nanoskill enough to force you into regular NSD - nerfed nano AR + 160 nr check = less and less chance to finally lands it - NSD perk removal might have no effect on this fight ?

Their AR unaffected if predrained (99% of the time), procs/perks for health recovery, can try a lucky hit with their own, short term Shutdown Skills, in case of emergency, even under regular NSD...

Just guessing here, I have no idea how those HP recovery perks gonna work after rebalancing and how will 50% NR check, 120 PM/SI nano perform against medium/high NR profession.

MP vs fixer : doesn t sound too bad for the fix...

Oh, so totally unneeded on this one. Dunno, maybe they don't train that perkline at all.

But, once it landed, what happens that is so different then GTH ?

A lot of stuff, since MP lack certain trader's tools that make GTH even worse.

Obvious differences which make NSD worst then GTH :

- Nanoskill AR perk won't land

Good. It's a feature of a debuff nano.

- Some super low cost nanoprogram aren't castable (a NT can, in some condition, nano regen proc, ofab helm procing, good timed stims, nano perk, spam something like reso blast, which is a 400ish nano cost / pop, for instance), dunno if that apply to other professions (some roots ? some really lowby heals ?)

Good NTs/docs can use lowbie (still useful) tools (already counted above), in case of emergency.

- root graft are out of the picture in a lot of case (base nanoskill under 2k, or eNSD cast)

Only for people that can't get f. ex., 74 MC/TS (Feet of Stone). Those who can't get that (agents/crats), have snare/stun perks that check different skills for attack.

- blind ring is out

There's that other one that needs only 181 SI. So, not out for everybody.

- pet profs have no pets anymore

Feature. Doesn't matter if pets were on guard though.

- GTH is castable only on a single target at a time, not NSD afaik

NSD is penalized enough by its cast time/recharge/hard to land/fairly short range "features", to not be abused in the way that you imply to.

[Szyylin]

I honestly don't know which prof can realistically perk this line in their regular PvP setup, enlight me, but point is, it's not like everyone can remove those thing.

Agents, especially atrox, they have enough HP already so they can unperk enhanced health for nano doctorate without problem.

Kill the MP before he kills you? Snare pet, snare MP, get out of LoS/range until NSD is down, heal, come back...

Get out of range for one minute? Yeah, very realistic. Better go fight someone else.

NSD lasts too long to be unremovable. eNSD is easily kited and can be made unremovable.

[Klod9003]

Get out of range for one minute? Yeah, very realistic.

Good agents can perk (damage dealing - Tigress ones?) MPs to death anyways. And not like regular NSD will land at first cast anyways, so you have time to do your "magic".

[srompu]

High NR on doc, landed UBT might make things complicated, good docs can still CH under regular NSD...

...docs can use lowbie (still useful) tools (already counted above), in case of emergency.

I believe this is incorrect. Can you give an example of a useful nano Docs can cast under NSD?

Agents, especially atrox, they have enough HP already so they can unperk enhanced health for nano doctorate without problem.

I disagree. Atrox Agents can due to their innate 1500 from the breed, but to do so on other breeds is generally crippling.

Kill the MP before he kills you? Snare pet, snare MP, get out of LoS/range until NSD is down, heal, come back...

Get out of range for one minute? Yeah, very realistic. Better go fight someone else.

This describes it well.

Good agents can perk (damage dealing - Tigress ones?) MPs to death anyways. And not like regular NSD will land at first cast anyways, so you have time to do your "magic".

Good Tigress MPs won't roll over and die to a Good Agent's perks.
Good Shield MPs aren't perkable.
It might.

Pets work the same after NSD, if they started attack before it's casted. Pillow fight (since AS is getting nerfed)?

Just guessing here, I have no idea how those HP recovery perks gonna work after rebalancing and how will 50% NR check, 120 PM/SI nano perform against medium/high NR profession

Since most of this is speculative, perhaps it would be best to see how debuffs are implemented after the changes.

[Klod9003]

I believe this is incorrect. Can you give an example of a useful nano Docs can cast under NSD?

CH.

Good Tigress MPs won't roll over and die to a Good Agent's perks.
Good Shield MPs aren't perkable.
It might.

I'm talking about fights if current announced rebalancing acts are done, even without all nano changes. You are aware that SS is losing blockers? Well, if you are not, it is.

Since most of this is speculative, perhaps it would be best to see how debuffs are implemented after the changes.

Everything in this forum is speculative, until we get full info.

[Cryfreman]

All depends when you run into the better agents really, if post casting blockers and you are out of the recharge then a mp has a good chance v a decent agent.

If you run into an agent in recharge with no/low blockers then the agent has the upper hand here. I rarely come across ones that dont remove my nsd however.

[Szyylin]

Good agents can perk (damage dealing - Tigress ones?) MPs to death anyways. And not like regular NSD will land at first cast anyways, so you have time to do your "magic".

I know that agents can perk MPs. But 1 minute without being able to cast anything is too powerful to be unremovable. Doesnt matter if the MP died or not.

And to CH through NSD a doc needs 2795 BM, thats about 650 over the reqs for ICH. If you get OSB and swap half your gear mayyybe, but that's not something you will see in every fight (if it's even possible).

[srompu]

CH.

Has a doc cast CH under NSD lately? I'm pretty sure it's not possible, or if it is, barely so. They may have removal perks and definitely have high NR though.

I'm talking about fights if current announced rebalancing acts are done, even without all nano changes. You are aware that SS is losing blockers? Well, if you are not, it is.

Yup, I'm aware of all the changes proposed thus far actually hehe

Everything in this forum is speculative, until we get full info.

Yup. There are far more game-breaking issues than NSD which are unknown (Evade professions post-AS-nerf for one), so I wouldnt' get too worried over how broken things look.

-For what its worth, I think the Nano Doctorate perkline is too much all-or-nothing against NSD, and that a more gradual scaling should be introduced in order to avoid a rock-paper-scissors PvP system.
-I also think perks which offer 100% cyclic 1/3 immunity to NSD are either a waste of perk points or stupidly OP, depending on what they do with NSD and the MP toolset.
-Last, I'm not worried about post-balance debuff duration.

[Klod9003]

Yup. There are far more game-breaking issues than NSD which are unknown (Evade professions post-AS-nerf for one), so I wouldnt' get too worried over how broken things look.

Good. Make a thread about it. I'm currently concerned about this one, so you can't blame me for trying to get some answers/explanations/suggestions.

[Avari]

High NR on doc, landed UBT might make things complicated, good docs can still CH under regular NSD...

If you can't beat the living daylights out of a doctor you should consider playing a simpler game - MPs are one of the few professions doctors die to easily 1v1, so by most other peoples account of doctors 1v1 capabilities MPs are demi-gods by that ability alone.

As it is atm both NSD and eNSD are as balanced as anything gets in this game - I don't know why they wanna play around with the immunity and perk removals, when it's working fine already.

Procs are an entirely different discussion though. That goes for any unremovable proc out there with anything more than a 5-7s duration.

Edit:

Unless something major has happened lately, then PvP doctors can't CH under NSD either. Some nano twinked PvE doc maybe, but you can beat them in a number of other ways easily. (e)NSD is the least of the problems fighting an MP. I suggest increasing the nano skill drain to 4k as a simple fix though - you can add my signature on your petition for that, but I know you won't, since you want an increase in MP power and not just a fix of some obvious faults.

[Cryfreman]

doc's can be a pain for mp's, landing that ensd/heal debuff/small init debuff on a doc is not always easy and if the doc lands that nasty dot it can be game over for the mp due to the fact you have no blockers to be casting all this stuff

[Klod9003]

If you can't beat the living daylights out of a doctor you should consider playing a simpler game - MPs are one of the few professions doctors die to easily 1v1, so by most other peoples account of doctors 1v1 capabilities MPs are demi-gods by that ability alone.

Hello! Doctors got deadly tools lately. NSD immunity is not needed on ND perk actions. NSD is useless enough with 2 removers already.

Yes, docs can CH under regular NSD, they don't have to because of two removers, but they can, if they chose to.

And I don't wanna start about new doc damage perk actions. They are not low damage dealing healers anymore.

[Avari]

doc's can be a pain for mp's, landing that ensd/heal debuff/small init debuff on a doc is not always easy and if the doc lands that nasty dot it can be game over for the mp due to the fact you have no blockers to be casting all this stuff

An AS doctor will be harder for you than a pistol one yes, but you'll still win by a rather comfortable margin. Where is it AS is going now btw?

You won't land all your debuffs in your first attempt maybe, but we still fight 50% off, which doesn't really make our NR kick in as well as that of MPs for example. A doctor is the easiest profession to debuff of all the nano based professions. Before a fight with an MP even starts you have to cast UBT 4-5 times on the pets and the MP. With a heal pet on you (even UBTed) you'll have crippled the doctor to AS-only status, before he's close to killing you.

Hello! Doctors got deadly tools lately. NSD immunity is not needed on ND perk actions. NSD is useless enough with 2 removers already.

The immunity is not needed no - I already said that. Deadly tools? Doesn't help you much if you don't get the time to use them. That's exactly why doctors can't win against MPs. You need time to cast UBT 3-5 times, a few DoTs, and start stacking Malpractice all the while you're healing yourself and kiting the pets. If you start off with the init debuff you'll pressure the doctor even harder, and have plenty of time to stand back and just eNSD while your pets do the rest of the work for you. If doctors really had those oh-so-deadly tools, why are people not rolling them for PvP, do you think?

Yes, docs can CH under regular NSD, they don't have to because of two removers, but they can, if they chose to.

Yes, and I could eat my left hand if I chose to.

And I don't wanna start about new doc damage perk actions. They are not low damage dealing healers anymore.

And you completely forget to mention the heal change in which light such perks should be seen. I'm not gonna judge neither yet, and I think you're an idiot if you think you can forsee what'll happen with the limited information (read: none) we've gotten on the subject so far.

[Klod9003]

And you completely forget to mention the heal change in which light such perks should be seen. I'm not gonna judge neither yet, and I think you're an idiot if you think you can forsee what'll happen with the limited information (read: none) we've gotten on the subject so far.

I'm working with the info I got on NSD/NSD removal/immunity changes, thank you very much.

If I can't discuss on it (as you imply), why the hell this Balance Discussion forum exists?

[srompu]

Good. Make a thread about it. I'm currently concerned about this one, so you can't blame me for trying to get some answers/explanations/suggestions.

You're not trying to get any of that. You're flaming everyone who offers answers/explanations/suggestions, ignoring when they agree or make a strong argument, complete with sarcasm and rolleyes.

Yes, docs can CH under regular NSD, they don't have to because of two removers, but they can, if they chose to.

For the third time, can you substantiate this?

[Klod9003]

You're not trying to get any of that. You're flaming everyone who offers answers/explanations/suggestions, ignoring when they agree or make a strong argument, complete with sarcasm and rolleyes.

Not many offered answers/explanations/suggestions. The ones that did, they didn't get flamed. I already "toned down" my suggestion, because of that. You just missed that particular post.

If your argument is, "AS is getting nerfed, heals are getting nerfed, full documentation is not available, live with it MP noob, if you can't beat the living daylights out of a doctor you should consider playing a simpler game, there are far more game-breaking issues than NSD, MPs aren't perkable, nerf NSD proc, NSD is spammable" etc..., how do you expect me to react to that?

[Klod9003]

For the third time, can you substantiate this?

Lets just say, FC put 3k debuff on eNSD for a reason (even though, it's a moot point, because of existing removers).