The inherent problem with Reaper

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It is. Unless 1he perklines are signifigantly uber with Quick Cut and Flay vs Transfix and Cleave?

Is this so? Or is it the fact 1he has SA that makes this a superior option? If it is the SA thing, then it isnt the perkline at all that is the issue. And again, at 220 both "options" have SA, so the issue disappears.

well that was the point I was trying to make: that if you match up quick cuts and cleave, and transfix and flay, you see they are about equal... a little ( LITTLE) lower on 1he, but certainly not enough to make up for the massive benefit of SA.

Others and myself have already outlined reasons why a most twinks can't hotswap, other than sold, who can self a SPB at like 130 or whatever, and MA who can self a bow with almost no trouble.

Keepers are limited to swapping due to the necessity of equipping a high dmg weapon in order to keep up regular dmg hits and fast attack.

I am saying reaver + AS + SA = 10 perk points.
1hb+1he = 20 perk points.

10 perk points is a lot to sacrifice on an enforcer. More people would go 2he + AS +SA, if the stun lockouts werent so absurd (5 mins lol) and people werent paranoid about using something that will change "soon™" (AS, AS + SA) etc.

definitly agree, although, an enforcer won't usually spend 20 points on perks unless he's also planning on beinga MR ganker etc. Also, since one locks the other out, it's more beneficial to just perk 1hb, and use the ambient SA on 1he while having only slightly lower AR on the 1he, and still take advantage of 1. it's most powerful attack, and 2. all the low check perks on 1hb.

Finally, most enforcers do not go split AR types at TL5. That is not the best idea, and, finally, it doesn't really apply since keepr doesn't really have the option to use duel equipped weapons

[lostlife]

wouldn't increasing reaver make it so enfos can swap 1he (1 wep) and 2he for a freaking awsome alpha?

[Kinkstaah]

well that was the point I was trying to make: that if you match up quick cuts and cleave, and transfix and flay, you see they are about equal... a little ( LITTLE) lower on 1he, but certainly not enough to make up for the massive benefit of SA.

And like I said before, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PERK LINE. Nothing. Zip. Nada. There is no "inherent problem with reaver". It makes as much sense as saying there is an inherent problem with Mongo Rage at 150, because it is not usable at 150.

Others and myself have already outlined reasons why a most twinks can't hotswap, other than sold, who can self a SPB at like 130 or whatever, and MA who can self a bow with almost no trouble.

I read it, but that doesnt make it relevent. The perkline is fine, and when you can make proper use of the perkline, you CAN swap just fine.

definitly agree, although, an enforcer won't usually spend 20 points on perks unless he's also planning on beinga MR ganker etc. Also, since one locks the other out, it's more beneficial to just perk 1hb, and use the ambient SA on 1he while having only slightly lower AR on the 1he, and still take advantage of 1. it's most powerful attack, and 2. all the low check perks on 1hb.

I'm just quoting this to be a jerk.

[Kinkstaah]

wouldn't increasing reaver make it so enfos can swap 1he (1 wep) and 2he for a freaking awsome alpha?

Can do it already, but 1hb is better with 1he, simply due to the fact you can't keep your target stunned/still in order to really execute a 1he+2he alpha.

[lostlife]

Can do it already, but 1hb is better with 1he, simply due to the fact you can't keep your target stunned/still in order to really execute a 1he+2he alpha.

i know it can be done, im saying that if reaver were improved to be balanced with 1he (keeping SA in mind) then that combo would be to powerful

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ kink: you're quoting me, reading the text, it looks like youre understanding the reasoning, but don't make comments that show that you have.

I'll lay out the logic here, because maybe I was unclear.

Main Arguments

1. Reaver is available to Enforcer. (TRUE)
2. No enforcers use Reaver. (99.9% TRUE)
3. Therefore, Reaver is subpar compared to other options (INFERRED)

Corollary Arguments:

4. Keeper only has access to Reaver (TRUE)
5. Therefore Keeper is forced into using an "subpar" perkline (INFERRED)

Now, these arguments are linear and easily followed. But, because the supporting structure for keepers and enforcers are different, like, for example, keepers have vastly more support for 2he than enforcers do, keepers are arguably better equipped to make use of it.

BUT, because of the logic outlined above, we can still PROVE that it is a substandard perkline.

Also, just because a char does not have access to the entire line, does not mean that the argument is null. It only means that at the point of reference, it is true or false. In this case, at level 170, where access is limited to damage perks cleave and transfix, it is true, as outlined above.

[Legion84]

Do you mean Reaver?

If you mean Reaver, at TL7 -on its own- which is where it's at for Keepers, it's pretty poor. Even my NT has enough HP to hold out against a Reaver alpha. I'm not sure if Enfos get any other damage perks to go with it or stuns to time it better.

And the current proposal from FC is to nerf it! Yay! \o/

I can't believe they nerfed it tbh, it was fine for 4-5 years when people had less hp items in game back then, since i play my enf and noticed this crappy nerf (no other words can described it) i was allowed to change from 2he to 1hb/1he which unfortunately keepers cannot! enfs usually in form of troll get two stuns "avalanche and stone fist" one which is AOE and does 1-3k dmg pvp and one single stun... On top of that been 1hb 1he setup i now have 2 area stuns and 1 single stun... lol

[Kopecz]

I can't believe they nerfed it tbh, it was fine for 4-5 years when people had less hp items in game back then, since i play my enf and noticed this crappy nerf (no other words can described it) i was allowed to change from 2he to 1hb/1he which unfortunately keepers cannot! enfs usually in form of troll get two stuns "avalanche and stone fist" one which is AOE and does 1-3k dmg pvp and one single stun... On top of that been 1hb 1he setup i now have 2 area stuns and 1 single stun... lol

We're not talking about TL7 though. We're talking about his Tl5 keeper. His argument is basically that "I can use Cleave and Transfix, but Enforcers get to use Quick Cut and Flay and Sneak Attack. OMGZ why?" Cause we all know that no Enforcer has the ip for 1hb/1he at TL5 so the massive perk alpha is a moot point.

TL5 just happens to be an area where Enforcers get some really powerful 1he weapons and McKnuckle doesn't like that he can't use SoW too. Well actually he can, but he doesn't want to lose his OFAB wolf and a perkline with 2 specials that he obviously doesn't like for the opportunity to use SA.

[crattey]

@ kink: you're quoting me, reading the text, it looks like youre understanding the reasoning, but don't make comments that show that you have.

I'll lay out the logic here, because maybe I was unclear.

Main Arguments

1. Reaver is available to Enforcer. (TRUE)
2. No enforcers use Reaver. (99.9% TRUE)
3. Therefore, Reaver is subpar compared to other options (INFERRED)

Corollary Arguments:

4. Keeper only has access to Reaver (TRUE)
5. Therefore Keeper is forced into using an "subpar" perkline (INFERRED)

Now, these arguments are linear and easily followed. But, because the supporting structure for keepers and enforcers are different, like, for example, keepers have vastly more support for 2he than enforcers do, keepers are arguably better equipped to make use of it.

BUT, because of the logic outlined above, we can still PROVE that it is a substandard perkline.

Also, just because a char does not have access to the entire line, does not mean that the argument is null. It only means that at the point of reference, it is true or false. In this case, at level 170, where access is limited to damage perks cleave and transfix, it is true, as outlined above.

You are, however, missing one tiny little point here:

Reaver was, for ages, the superior perkline for everyone with acces to it.
Enforcers complained that 1hb was left so far behind.
Then 1hb got boosted.
Now you want reaver to be boosted to once again be the same or better.

What then? People complain about that?

One perkline will always be better. If you're lucky, your profession has acces to it. What about all those sad folk out there who hardly have damage perks at all? Should they demand to be equal or better than the best? Surely even you can see the flaw in your desire? Just in case you can't, let me help you out. There's no such thing as perfect balance. One will always be better than the other. What you're proposing is a neverending cycle of bitching and whining on the forums every time the status quo is upset.

Again, you're not nerfed. You're not underpowered. You're simply not the very best. Deal with it.



And just to bring it home:

Main Arguments

1. Shotgun Mastery is available to tl7 Engineers. (TRUE)
2. No engineer uses Shotgun Mastery. (99.9% TRUE)
3. Therefore, Shotgun Mastery is subpar compared to other options (INFERRED)

Corollary Arguments:

4. Trader only has access to Shotgun Mastery (TRUE)
5. Therefore Trader is forced into using an "subpar" perkline (INFERRED)

And the moral of the story is?

Engineers are not traders. Just as keepers are not enforcers. You take two wholy different professions and compare one single part of their entire toolset. It is silly, and makes your arguement utterly, completely and entirely invalid.

Not since Ragetra and Wilsonat have I seen such white noise on the forums...

[crattey]

Actually, I'm having fun here...

Main Arguments

1. Soldiers have support for rifles (TRUE)
2. No soldier uses rifles. (99.9% TRUE)
3. Therefore, Rifles are subpar compared to other options (INFERRED)

Corollary Arguments:

4. Agents only have support for rifles (TRUE)
5. Therefore Agents are forced into using a "subpar" weapons line (INFERRED)

And again!

Main Arguments

1. Soldiers have support for rifles (TRUE)
2. No soldier uses rifles. (99.9% TRUE)
3. Therefore, Rifles are subpar compared to other options (INFERRED)

Corollary Arguments:

4. Agents only have support for rifles (TRUE)
5. Therefore Agents are forced into using a "subpar" weapons line (INFERRED)


See what happens if you read the 'logical reasoning' page on wikepedia and think you've now mastered it?

[Kinkstaah]

Knuckle. I do not care about TL5. I consider your entire argument and your character's existence to be completely irrelevent to the points I am making about the perkline.

The perkline (reaver) when you actually have the entire perkline, is better than 1he. The only saving grace of the 1he perkline is recharge time.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Knuckle. I do not care about TL5. I consider your entire argument and your character's existence to be completely irrelevent to the points I am making about the perkline.

The perkline (reaver) when you actually have the entire perkline, is better than 1he. The only saving grace of the 1he perkline is recharge time.

wrong! the saving grace on 1he is SA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


@ crattey, you reasoning is corect, in almost every case, and, so instead of disproving my theory, you are actually enforcing it.

Let me show you.

1. "Engineers are not traders. Just as keepers are not enforcers." (TRUE)
2. "You take two wholy different professions and compare one single part of their entire toolset." True, But, completely unrelated to Item 1.
Logic broken.
3. "It is silly, and makes your arguement utterly, completely and entirely invalid." (WRONG CONCLUSION)

Here is better logic:
1. "Engineers are not traders. Just as keepers are not enforcers." (TRUE)
2. Enforcers have support for weapons with better specials (TRUE)
3. Enforcers will choose the weapon type with better specials (TRUE)
4. Enforcers will use the perk line that supports a better weapon type (TRUE)

Ok, lets stop here. So, enforcers USE 1HE perkline, even though it might not be as GOOD a perk line as reaver. So far, we have shown nothing about reaver, But, I'll try to show that it is not used as a result of not being associated with the best special available.

5. Enforcers do not swap to 2HE for Fast attack and brawl. (TRUE)
6. Enforcers already have fast attack, brawl and dimach on 1he (TRUE)
7. Enforcers don't perk reaver, because they already have the weapon specials, AND they can't afford another 4 perks to swap to 2HE for those damage perks (TRUE)
8. The only weapon special available on 1he and not on 2he is Sneak attack. (TRUE)
9. The reason Enforcers use 1he instead of 2 he is Sneak attack (INFERRED)
10. The BENEFITS OF REAVER DO NOT OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS OF 1HE PERKLINE AND SA. (INFERRED)
11. Since Keepers do not have support for 1HE and can not use SA, they are at a disadvantage (INFERRED, and obvious)

Now, there are no logic gaps here, AND, I've only compared Enforcers to enforcers, thereby proving your argument to be false, as well as having a disconnect of logic.

[Szyylin]

Now, there are no logic gaps

yes there are. plenty of them. stop trying to sound smart when you know nothing about logic.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

yes there are. plenty of them. stop trying to sound smart when you know nothing about logic.

lawl!

I my logic puts your illogic in a headlock and rubs it's nose in fresh doggy doo.

you suck!

[Szyylin]

lawl!

I my logic puts your illogic in a headlock and rubs it's nose in fresh doggy doo.

you suck!

thanks for your input.

Your poor attempts at logic still fail.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

thanks for your input.

Your poor attempts at logic still fail.

Your lack of attempt to argue the point fail harder.

Don't make sissy posts. Argue your point or make like a net kid and stfu and gtfo.

[Kopecz]

10. The BENEFITS OF REAVER DO NOT OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS OF 1HE PERKLINE AND SA. (INFERRED)
11. Since Keepers do not have support for 1HE and can not use SA (AT TL5), they are at a disadvantage (INFERRED, and obvious)

Now, there are no logic gaps here, AND, I've only compared Enforcers to enforcers, thereby proving your argument to be false, as well as having a disconnect of logic.

Nah. Keepers at endgame, where Reaver is fully unlocked can't possible swap a SoFC or a Supernova for AS or SA. Must be something wrong with keepers huh? You should get some crispys on and call it good.

Lots of profs have to crowbar on a shotty and a special that is not supported by their toolset. Why do you think keepers should be immune to this?

[crattey]

snip

You do realize you're wrong again, right?

Let's keep it simpler, then.

11. Since Keepers do not have support for 1HE and can not use SA, they are at a disadvantage (INFERRED, and obvious)

Now, there are no logic gaps here, AND, I've only compared Enforcers to enforcers, thereby proving your argument to be false, as well as having a disconnect of logic.

This is where you get it wrong. Dead wrong.

Give my crat acces to reaver. Just for kicks. Would that make him equal to keepers? What about 1he. Give me Edged Mastery. Does that mean my offense is now that of an adventurer? Better yet. Give keeper acces to the Pistol Mastery perkline. Ten bucks says you'll stay 2he regardless, since you have no support for pistols whatsoever.

Even if keepers had acces to the 1he perkline, they probably wouldn't be using 1he. Why? Because keepers are not enforcers. Keepers don't have 1he buffs, it's not supported by their toolset. They do have a ****load of support for 2he.

Again, by your style of reasoning, adventurers have far worse defenses than doctors because they have vastly inferior heals. It's too simple a comparison however.

If you use this silly form of arguement, it's a neverending list of odd comparisons. What's next, Enforcers have rage and you don't, therefore you are the nerfest? Next up, enforcers demanding acces to Street Samurai?

Crat have AAD buffs.
Keepers have AAD buffs.
Crats' AAD buffs are vastly superior.
Therefore keepers have an inferior defense?

This an exaggerated version of your arguement, but similar nonetheless.

Enforcer and keeper offense may look the same on the face of things, but they're not. They are two vastly different professions and can't be compared 1 on 1. If you take one tiny bit and skip over everything else, you're always wrong. Even if you happen to be right, it's for the wrong reasons

[Kinkstaah]

wrong! the saving grace on 1he is SA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, you can use SA as a 2h user. Maybe not at TL5, but you also cannot use the full extent of the perkline at TL5 either.

There is no "inherent problem with reaver" at 220, when the line is actually complete.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Nope, you can use SA as a 2h user. Maybe not at TL5, but you also cannot use the full extent of the perkline at TL5 either.

There is no "inherent problem with reaver" at 220, when the line is actually complete.

Simply put, reaver fails. How do I know this? because there are no enforcers who use it when it is obviously "just" as powerful as 1he line.

You guys are not explaining the one thing that requires explaining in your arguments:

WHY DON'T TL5 ENFORCERS USE REAVER?

If your answer is because there are better weapons for 1HE, then you've proven my point, because, Reaper needs to be a strong enough line that it is, with the weapons available to use with reaver with, is sufficiently strong enough to lure people away from 1HE.

However, since nobody uses Reaver who doesn't have to, you, I, and everyone else knows the brutal truth, that it fails.