Grand Theft Humidity and Drains

[Klod9001]

Agent stil can perk trader with 1 drain on or aao debuf (CS check AS skill , AI perk fuzz nano feast check AAO*2) , if the trader cast yeeif then the agent gona perk him to death if he cast divest he wont have time to cast yeeif+haggler

Good thing plenty of Traders are NMs, so they can use coon, plus, they can use blind ring, plus, traders can perk agents as well, plus, CS + general AI perks, don't make 3 capped hits, plus, at least 1 drain proc will land in the meantime, because traders actually have enough AR to do so...

Long story short: GTH in its current state is retarded, there's no question about it.

*sigh*

yeeiyf is not a spammable nano, and the heal (HOT) you are referring to lands on the targets enemy will not always be the trader.

*sigh*

It's spammable, until it lands, like GTH and that's what matters in this discussion. If you cast GTH on someone and he does not attack you, you most probably won't cast YEEIYF on him (unless you wanted to help your friend that way, which is highly unlikely), you will drain him.

There is also a hard lockout after using it.

If you can't kill someone who is under GTH, YEEIYF and without blockers, within 1 minute time span, as a trader, with AS alone, then you fail as a player in general.

If you're trying to make a point about 1 vs 1 PvP, Funcom doesn't care, and rightfully so, as they have said time and time again.

No, I am not.

as usual, your arguments fail to be realistic

My arguments are based on encounters I had with traders. It's exactly as I described. Trader can indeed outheal one's AS with his latest haggler + YEEIYF.

[Gatester]

Because that's what they do. They don't have uber wonderful nano skills, DESPITE being a casting class, until they're drained. They don't have particularly wonderful nano resist, DESPITE being a casting class, until it's made relative to a drained target. They don't have particularly wonderful evades, DESPITE having evade buffs and perk lines, until they're made relative to a drained target. They don't have any decent attack rating at all, DESPITE having one supported weapon line and perks for it, until they've drained a target.

See where this is going? It's the design of the class. Traders should be asking you why Enforcers -don't- have to get all their uber nano resist, runspeed, HP and 3k+ AR until they land a nano on someone else, perhaps.

So WHY, do traders have to drain "everything" at the exact same time with a single drain? Who cares if their nanoskills, weapons skills, evades are all a C- if a single drain puts their nanoskills, weapon skills, and evades at A-. Now add in that second drain, shutdown skills, GTH, and traders exceptional (despite whatever they may try to tell you) healing.

[Hacre]

So WHY, do traders have to drain "everything" at the exact same time with a single drain? Who cares if their nanoskills, weapons skills, evades are all a C- if a single drain puts their nanoskills, weapon skills, and evades at A-. Now add in that second drain, shutdown skills, GTH, and traders exceptional (despite whatever they may try to tell you) healing.

Ah I see where you're confused.

A -single- drain doesn't accomplish anything that you're talking about here.

Think more: F -> C -> B.

Or, No Drains(F) -> Divest(C) -> Plunder(B), when you're referring to their skills.

The As and the A pluses of this world are where the plethora of other nanos comes in, which with the exception of Haggler, all require they're landed on other.

I don't even have an end game Trader and yet I can grasp all this. Why's it so hard for you to understand? My only beef is with the way GTH works which most Traders even agree needs some work.

As for Traders being pretty awesome once they get 3 drains landed, well I damn well hope so, I'm just glad I don't have to rely as heavily on landing debuffs on others to make my character come alive, all the time.

I notice you conveniently ignored my comment about how come it's fair that your 3k+ AR, high NR, high runspeed when it comes to your Enforcer -doesn't- rely on landing debuffs on others, yet that's all fine and dandy, but for a Trader to achieve similar numbers while starting with far less, needs some hefty whack with a nerf bat?

[Leamartini]

I notice you conveniently ignored my comment about how come it's fair that your 3k+ AR, high NR, high runspeed when it comes to your Enforcer -doesn't- rely on landing debuffs on others, yet that's all fine and dandy, but for a Trader to achieve similar numbers while starting with far less, needs some hefty whack with a nerf bat?

The problem people have with traders isn't about how much they gain by draining but how much of a gimp they become once drained.

And traders should be given a free level 220 at char creation too, so they stop draining ppl into almost negative skills at lower levels

[Marinegent]

The problem people have with traders isn't about how much they gain by draining but how much of a gimp they become once drained.

This.

Keep the trader bonuses the same, lower the actual debuff on the target dramatically.

/fixed.

(The trader should not be able to shut down anyone in 1 nano/drain, or even 2. It should take at least 3* to effectively shut down any ENDGAME toon... If that means landing double drains + GTH, then so be it. If it means YEEIYF (or w/e) + divest and corporate protection (trader nano right?) so be it.. But landing one drain, with a less than 100% defense check, and in turn your opponent becoming useless against your now superior evades due to a -250 skills / 100 aao debuff... is ridiculous)

Sorry if my numbers are a little off atm, im going by bad-memory. I know the effects of the drains, just not the hard numbers always.

[Gatester]

I notice you conveniently ignored my comment about how come it's fair that your 3k+ AR, high NR, high runspeed when it comes to your Enforcer -doesn't- rely on landing debuffs on others, yet that's all fine and dandy, but for a Trader to achieve similar numbers while starting with far less, needs some hefty whack with a nerf bat?

I'm trying not to cloud the thread with a big debate on the state of enforcers. The fact is, I would gladly accept having debuffs on my enforcer because I have no way of pvping other than alpha killing someone. Mongo Rage often allows enfs to be an A+ profession situationally, but someone like me who relied on a 5% chance LE proc based off my melee range hitting, well lets just say its a bit worse than someone who can easily land a crippling debuff.


Besides that, trader drains are rough at tl7, but at lower levels they are unbearably overpowered. My level 1 trader in my sig can in fact use ql30 drains self buffed. This trend continues up until Nanite drains begin being used and that is completely overpowered.

Traders would actually be ok at tl7 then, despite even stronger drains, except for the existance of YEEIF that increases their survival, and GTH which finishes off any chance of nano abilities. The final problem is that the offensive portion of drains does not last 10-15seconds, and then allows a player an actual chance to fight them, but it lasts for 3 minutes.

So tell me, can your keeper kill a trader after 1 drain? My enforcer cannot, and if I simply had a chance, some possibility of hope of killing a trader then I would say everyone is just whining, but they are not and the fact that 1 drain from a good trader in combination with their survival toolset is too much for a majority of players to beat means the trader toolset needs to be reworked. No profession should have the advantage in every single encounter, and traders do.

[lusthorne]

I'm trying not to cloud the thread with a big debate on the state of enforcers. The fact is, I would gladly accept having debuffs on my enforcer because I have no way of pvping other than alpha killing someone. Mongo Rage often allows enfs to be an A+ profession situationally, but someone like me who relied on a 5% chance LE proc based off my melee range hitting, well lets just say its a bit worse than someone who can easily land a crippling debuff.

If the equip config linked in your sig is accurate, you're not particularly well geared for pvp to begin with.

Traders would actually be ok at tl7 then, despite even stronger drains, except for the existance of YEEIF that increases their survival, and GTH which finishes off any chance of nano abilities. The final problem is that the offensive portion of drains does not last 10-15seconds, and then allows a player an actual chance to fight them, but it lasts for 3 minutes.

10-15 seconds is barely enough time to get 3 drains off, not even considering any counters. Drains are the offense *and* defense cornerstone for a trader.

Yeeiyf can increase our survival in a fight sure, just remember it's not like we can constantly use it, it's locked out for 2 minutes after we land it on someone (and heaven forbid we use it to help someone else rather than ourselves, that would be unheard of!).

GTH doesn't prevent you from using something like, say, MR if you have it, nor does it prevent you from using free movements to break roots.

So tell me, can your keeper kill a trader after 1 drain? My enforcer cannot, and if I simply had a chance, some possibility of hope of killing a trader then I would say everyone is just whining, but they are not and the fact that 1 drain from a good trader in combination with their survival toolset is too much for a majority of players to beat means the trader toolset needs to be reworked. No profession should have the advantage in every single encounter, and traders do.

Keepers notoriously have AR issues even with excellent gear, while Enforcers can certainly get a fair bit more, plus higher nanoresist, plus much higher runspeed on top of that. Despite that, a keeper can drop a trader with one drain on them in various situations (yes even acknowledging the use of MR by trox keepers).

If one drain is disabling you, not to mention landing incredibly easily every time, it's time to review your setup in regards to its suitability for pvp (and as I noted earlier, if your setup is what's in your sig, it is a far cry away from being effective vs serious pvpers, trader or otherwise).

Traders do not have the advantage in every single encounter. Our survival depends on our ability to debuff our opponents, and our tools work on one target at a time in that respect.

[Bonghigs]

Thanks, it is just frusterating playing a doctor, and you run along a trader. All I have been doing is running to middle, but before that, I get to the zone to middle, and i get rooted by a trader, then I get GTH'd, then trader runs away. Or he kills me.

I mean, seriously. I know the nanos are put into the game for traders deffense. But do they need to be that severe to completely cripple a proffession to where they can't even play?

oh. so that's what this is. yet another: oh my god i keep loosing against prof xy thread. wiiiiicked.

You didn't realize that's what this thread was right away? His whole post is obviously just whine considering about half of it is just flat-out wrong

[Bonghigs]

So tell me, can your keeper kill a trader after 1 drain? My enforcer cannot

I really hope this is you ranting and not true. I get hit/perked all the time by enforcers after they have been drained and my trader is top-end pvp gear and even in a more defensive setup. If you really cannot hit/kill a trader after one drain you need to re-evaluate your enforcer.

Please note that this is a loaded suggestion as I'm pretty sure the above quote is just plain not true and you are exaggerating or making it up to support your point. This whole thread is a pretty laughable whine, but this statement (especially from someone whose forum posts i generally respect) just forced me to respond...





Sorry for the double post ><

[Gatester]

If the equip config linked in your sig is accurate, you're not particularly well geared for pvp to begin with.

My pvp setup had about 3.40 AR procced, unfortunately I do not start a fight procced, leaving me unable to perk a good trader.

10-15 seconds is barely enough time to get 3 drains off, not even considering any counters. Drains are the offense *and* defense cornerstone for a trader.

10-15 seconds on the offensive portion, not the boost to the trader. Why do you need more than 15 seconds of debuffing someone's offense by 700?

Yeeiyf can increase our survival in a fight sure, just remember it's not like we can constantly use it, it's locked out for 2 minutes after we land it on someone (and heaven forbid we use it to help someone else rather than ourselves, that would be unheard of!).

YEEIF allows you to cripple a player while having substantial healing at the same time. You also only have to survive an alpha once in a fight, after that a player has no chance of killing you.

GTH doesn't prevent you from using something like, say, MR if you have it, nor does it prevent you from using free movements to break roots.

Right, breed abilities. Well, nanomage booster stops me from every alphaing a trader, and soli survival+YEEIF is far too much healing to outdamage with perks. OR, we could not include breed abilities not everyone, including myself, uses or tries to justify profession abilities with.

Free movement stims clearing snares or roots from top tier CC tools....are you serious?

If one drain is disabling you, not to mention landing incredibly easily every time, it's time to review your setup in regards to its suitability for pvp (and as I noted earlier, if your setup is what's in your sig, it is a far cry away from being effective vs serious pvpers, trader or otherwise).

Traders do not have the advantage in every single encounter. Our survival depends on our ability to debuff our opponents, and our tools work on one target at a time in that respect.

Every enforcer in existance gets drained almost always by the first drain, this is not just my complaint if you drift into other discussions. I understand that traders have difficulty with multiple players at once, but that is why you have roots and snares. However in every single 1 v 1 encounter, the advantage goes 90% to the trader. I understand MP's might cause some trouble if they actually suprise you, or ofc someone pops out of sneak and ganks you with a full alpha.

I really hope this is you ranting and not true. I get hit/perked all the time by enforcers after they have been drained and my trader is top-end pvp gear and even in a more defensive setup. If you really cannot hit/kill a trader after one drain you need to re-evaluate your enforcer.

Please note that this is a loaded suggestion as I'm pretty sure the above quote is just plain not true and you are exaggerating or making it up to support your point. This whole thread is a pretty laughable whine, but this statement (especially from someone whose forum posts i generally respect) just forced me to respond...

If you have been killed/hit by an enforcer who was not using MR after you drain him, you completely fail as a pvper. Sorry to say but asside from champion perks I cannot perk a trader at all after one drain, and regular hits aren't exactly deadly to a profession with so much healing ability. This is not unique to me, it is EVERY enforcer in AO. One drain means a good trader can survive anything an enf does, two drains means the enf is finished. Just because you can quote an instance where an enforcer who you didn't realize had full towers and an LE proc already fired happened to have the AR to perk you, does not account for the 99% of the situations where enfs will fail.

[Hacre]

10-15 seconds on the offensive portion, not the boost to the trader. Why do you need more than 15 seconds of debuffing someone's offense by 700?

Does an Enforcer's nano resist dramatically not work against Traders all of a sudden? If Enfs can average a 1 in 4 resist rate against CB with an NT's nano skills and a 55% check, I'm seriously curious to know how come apparently, with the way you talk and the claims moonbolt makes, Traders land everything on you, all the time, with ease?

Seriously, I'm dying to be enlightened here.

[Marinegent]

You're all picking at each other instead of focusing on the solution...

Get over yourselves for 10 minutes.. or this thread will get locked just like all the other flame war threads, and nothing gets better for anyone.

Who has a fair idea for a solution?

I still think the positive effects given to the trader should remain the same, but the negative effects done on almost all the nanos need to be lowered dramatically (-350 AR per drain is stupid.. -350 AR after both drains is a little more balanced i think). as does the duration on most of these nanos.

3 minutes of being double drained + gth is like saying the trader can press 1,2,3 and then walk away from his keyboard and if his enemy doesn't run, he will have a free kill...

The positive bonuses for the trader are not so bad, its what it does to the other players that's unbalanced.. So, lets address that... Who gives a damn which enf in what setup gets drained with this that or the other, or what keeper or what NT, or blah blah blah. None of it matters beyond your ego, so stop getting hung up on that crap.

[Wrangeline]

You're all picking at each other instead of focusing on the solution...

Get over yourselves for 10 minutes.. or this thread will get locked just like all the other flame war threads, and nothing gets better for anyone.

Who has a fair idea for a solution?

I still think the positive effects given to the trader should remain the same, but the negative effects done on almost all the nanos need to be lowered dramatically (-350 AR per drain is stupid.. -350 AR after both drains is a little more balanced i think). as does the duration on most of these nanos.

3 minutes of being double drained + gth is like saying the trader can press 1,2,3 and then walk away from his keyboard and if his enemy doesn't run, he will have a free kill...

The positive bonuses for the trader are not so bad, its what it does to the other players that's unbalanced.. So, lets address that... Who gives a damn which enf in what setup gets drained with this that or the other, or what keeper or what NT, or blah blah blah. None of it matters beyond your ego, so stop getting hung up on that crap.

Talking about "solutions" like you just did wont help anyone either because you start out with a huge assumption of what the reality of the situation is and your suggestion on how to "fix" it completely bypasses a lot of important logic that needs to be taken into consideration.

I can't talk about these things in such a simplistic manner. Either we look at the whole picture and all the details it contains or I say we don't look at it at all. Not yet at least. I'm sure these topics will be much more interesting once we get to try out profession changes on test. Then we shall see what's what.

[Marinegent]

Talking about "solutions" like you just did wont help anyone either because you start out with a huge assumption of what the reality of the situation is and your suggestion on how to "fix" it completely bypasses a lot of important logic that needs to be taken into consideration.

I can't talk about these things in such a simplistic manner. Either we look at the whole picture and all the details it contains or I say we don't look at it at all. Not yet at least. I'm sure these topics will be much more interesting once we get to try out profession changes on test. Then we shall see what's what.

Little detail, by detail, or big picture, the end result is the same.

One drain is workable, the second is too much for anyone.

GTH is over powered.

YEEIYF in combination with other things is also tough to fight.. However it's not the positive boosts for the trader that is the problem, its the debuffs given to your opponent. The solution is simply lower the debuffs.. fine tune the numbers all you want, but if you want to fix the problem you lower the debuffs and that's the most cut and dry way i can put it.

Theres no need for every profession to come here and post "Yes, double drained (add in GTH or other things based on profession), I am useless"

[Wrangeline]

Little detail, by detail, or big picture, the end result is the same.

One drain is workable, the second is too much for anyone.

GTH is over powered.

YEEIYF in combination with other things is also tough to fight.. However it's not the positive boosts for the trader that is the problem, its the debuffs given to your opponent. The solution is simply lower the debuffs.. fine tune the numbers all you want, but if you want to fix the problem you lower the debuffs and that's the most cut and dry way i can put it.

Theres no need for every profession to come here and post "Yes, double drained (add in GTH or other things based on profession), I am useless"

I know moderators don't like pointless arguing here but I just have to point out that posts like that only serve to hinder FC's efforts to achieve balance. If they listen to it at all that is.

I mean, seriously. You start off with assumptions and generalizations that are based on a lack of insight. Then you take that flawed startoff-point and add a slab-dash "solution" that has no detailed thought or insight behind it. Then you discourage others from discussing stuff that is not relevant to YOUR misguided point of view.

Could you possibly do anything more to steer people away from a path that might actually lead to actual balance?

Also, having that said, there are so many people here that still haven't figured out what a trader is and how it functions. They have played this game for many years and they still don't get it. Will trader toolset require various tweaks for various reasons? Yes, just like other professions will as well. Will a discussion on the right thing to do end at all well if it is in any way like the post I quoted? Not at all.

This is not restricted to this topic of course. This is a problem in all topics.

[Marinegent]

I know moderators don't like pointless arguing here but I just have to point out that posts like that only serve to hinder FC's efforts to achieve balance. If they listen to it at all that is.

I mean, seriously. You start off with assumptions and generalizations that are based on a lack of insight. Then you take that flawed startoff-point and add a slab-dash "solution" that has no detailed thought or insight behind it. Then you discourage others from discussing stuff that is not relevant to YOUR misguided point of view.

Could you possibly do anything more to steer people away from a path that might actually lead to actual balance?

Also, having that said, there are so many people here that still haven't figured out what a trader is and how it functions. They have played this game for many years and they still don't get it. Will trader toolset require various tweaks for various reasons? Yes, just like other professions will as well. Will a discussion on the right thing to do end at all well if it is in any way like the post I quoted? Not at all.

This is not restricted to this topic of course. This is a problem in all topics.

You're really not getting it. First of all, it's a generalization perhaps, but its not due to lack of insight and it's definitely not flawed.

Ask anyone, "If i hit you with double nanite drains, are you useless or not?". If they aren't useless defensively, i guarantee at least offensively. The only possible exception to this is perhaps against toons that use AS a lot, and seeing as drains don't take away AS, it's still possible to do decent damage in that respect... sort of.

Anyway, wrangeline, you've have funny threads in the past. Some decent insight, etc. You're an okay person..... But if you won't admit that the DEBUFFS traders give are over powered and need DECREASING, then your hiding behind "don't nerf my prof!!" and that's all there is to it. End of story.

Seriously. How much simpler can it get? The debuffs are too high, so you have 3 options. Lower them, increase them, keep them the same... Increasing them will make it worse.. keeping them the same doesn't solve anything.. lowering them helps elevate the problem in one area, and you can move to make further adjustments in others afterwards. But balance is not -500 to all primary skills, and -200 attack rating, -2000 nano delta + 1k nano drain over time, and so on..

[Hacre]

So should debuffs be effective, or not?

All this complaining about debuffs is going to end up turning everyone into alpha machines, or ineffectual gimps. You know, where Support professions -were- before they got some love.

All sounds like sour grapes to me. Wah someone not packing a big pewpew can kill me.

Aww.

[Marinegent]

So should debuffs be effective, or not?

All this complaining about debuffs is going to end up turning everyone into alpha machines, or ineffectual gimps. You know, where Support professions -were- before they got some love.

All sounds like sour grapes to me. Wah someone not packing a big pewpew can kill me.

Aww.

There's a difference between effective, and overpowered or beyond crippling.

In the current state, the trader debuffs are the ladder. I would not mind being at a huge disadvantage against a trader, but rather than the current 1 drain/nano it takes to do that, how about 3?

It gives me time to fight back, or try and pull something out of a hat, or die.. Makes things a little more fun, and not "The trader saw me and hit divest first. Now he's unperkable.. oh wait, he just hit GTH, guess i can't cast anymore nanos in 6 seconds. Oh, and now he's plundered me, my weapon is OE, and no perks, and i cant cast anything due to both GTH and having no more nanoskills after drain".

Make it "A trader saw me and divested me, quick! que up perks!, bah GTH'd, my nano will be gone in 20 seconds, i should really make smart decisions on how to cast my last available nanos, oh no! plunder, he's unperkable now and my weapon is just barely out of OE!, better make use of stims and in-battle kits and hope i can do enough damage to him before he kills me!"

[Hacre]

There's a difference between effective, and overpowered or beyond crippling.

In the current state, the trader debuffs are the ladder. I would not mind being at a huge disadvantage against a trader, but rather than the current 1 drain/nano it takes to do that, how about 3?

It gives me time to fight back, or try and pull something out of a hat, or die.. Makes things a little more fun, and not "The trader saw me and hit divest first. Now he's unperkable.. oh wait, he just hit GTH, guess i can't cast anymore nanos in 6 seconds. Oh, and now he's plundered me, my weapon is OE, and no perks, and i cant cast anything due to both GTH and having no more nanoskills after drain".

Make it "A trader saw me and divested me, quick! que up perks!, bah GTH'd, my nano will be gone in 20 seconds, i should really make smart decisions on how to cast my last available nanos, oh no! plunder, he's unperkable now and my weapon is just barely out of OE!, better make use of stims and in-battle kits and hope i can do enough damage to him before he kills me!"

OH MY GOD I'm getting really tired of repeating myself. IT DOES TAKE THREE nanos for Traders to reach their "wah wah wah omg nerf wah wah" status unless they're fighting people that GTH cripples. GTH is going to be looked at. So why the hell do these threads need to keep cropping up?

A single Divest isn't a game breaker. Most Traders go through Divest -> IS or CP -> Plunder against most targets, with GTH worked in somewhere in the chain depending on the target.

It is beyond me why people can deal with perk alphas spanking their pre pubescent little bottoms day in day out but the second a 2nd class caster starts whipping them, the world is ending.

Grow up.

[Marinegent]

OH MY GOD I'm getting really tired of repeating myself. IT DOES TAKE THREE nanos for Traders to reach their "wah wah wah omg nerf wah wah" status unless they're fighting people that GTH cripples. GTH is going to be looked at. So why the hell do these threads need to keep cropping up?

A single Divest isn't a game breaker. Most Traders go through Divest -> IS or CP -> Plunder against most targets, with GTH worked in somewhere in the chain depending on the target.

It is beyond me why people can deal with perk alphas spanking their pre pubescent little bottoms day in day out but the second a 2nd class caster starts whipping them, the world is ending.

Grow up.

Most medium AR or lower professions can no longer perk a decent trader after Divest, which is my main point. They have enough damage mitigation through the profession HHAB, depleted nanobots or whatever it is they use, hagglers, and decent evades (which are further expanded upon in effectiveness after drains) to avoid death to most of these professions. It's less of a problem for players with high AR professions or builds, but for the rest of us it's tough.

Even in a maxed out AR setup i can't touch a trader after divest, except maybe AI perks cause they check AAO twice, or CS if im lucky due to it's low check / AS based check. After a second drain even the AI perks don't land, and CS itself isn't enough to kill anyone.