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Thread: A Frank Discussion About Engineers

  1. #1

    Funcom employee A Frank Discussion About Engineers

    Hi there. Let's talk about Engies for a few minutes.

    After letting the Professionals post the rebalancing tidbits over the last few days, there've been quite a few various opinions on exactly what's happening, how it's happening, and whether or not we up here have any clue wtf we're doing. I'm one of those guys who'll freely admit that we don't always know wtf we're doing at any given moment, so I figured this would be a good opportunity to get everyone together and have a discussion about where we on the AO team see Engineers fitting into the overall landscape of Anarchy Online, what you guys expect out of the rebalancing, and what the best way to proceed would be.

    First off and foremost I should say that neither of the current Professionals have much of anything to do with creating the over-arching designs that we've come up with - Instead we came up with a vision of where we'd like to go and offered it up to them for feedback. Since then we've had two very different opinions: Ellarisa, who does not care for the majority of the proposed changes and has been very vocal against anything to do with tradeskills, and Technogen, who is viewing the rebalancing as an opportunity to completely alter and rework the entire vision of the Engineer profession and half the rest of the game while he's at it.

    Where we on the team fall in on this spectrum is somewhere in the middle - Due to technical limitations and concerns we can't make our "dream profession" for anyone; AO is old, its code is buggy, and there is ultimately only so much we can do to change a profession around. However, looking over the various professions and their weaknesses/strengths, we've taken the ones we feel need the most work and have done what we can to come up with an overall strategy about what the "feel" of the profession should be in an attempt to give them their core concept back - Something that's sadly been lost for many professions over the years of AO's development.

    Pet professions in general have suffered quite a bit due to various issues - Pets have seen decreased usefulness through-out the years due to a lack of updates to their base templates/weapons, barring them from being in-line with the rest of the game's changes and increases in power. Additionally, issues such as pet buffs, crowd-control problems, and other such various bits of nastiness have made the over-time diminishing of pet strength that much more glaring. Pets are not what they used to be in a lot of ways, for Engineers and other professions reliant on on their pet strength.

    Because of that, and due to the measures put in place by various other iterations of the Anarchy Online team, the core concept of the Engineer has ultimately been diminished - Instead of a creation profession, Engineers have become more and more reliant on personal damage and often left their pets by the wayside, particularly in PvP. Their playstyle still works, mind you, and Engineers are not at the bottom of the PvP food chain (regardless of what anyone would try to tell you), but is it really what an Engineer should be about?

    Engineers, according to our vision, should come in three basic flavours: Creator, Attacker, Gadgeteer. Let's further define what each of these means.

    Creator: The core concept behind an Engineer. The "creator" variant relies on their pet as their weapon of choice, with the majority of their damage output coming through the pet they create and manage. Nanos and perks act as tools to enhance their robots, while their personal damage is sacrificed. The "creator" playstyle relies on ensuring that they remain as far out of harm's way as possible, but still has the ability to defend themselves if need be - They can still do personal damage via a held weapon, and can still mitigate damage on themselves (both via nanos and [potentially] via diverting damage to their pets), but will have a much better opportunity to do so if their pet is kept alive and well.

    Attacker: An "attacker" Engineer sacrifices their ability to utilize their pet to it's fullest potential by investing more fully in weaponry, ensuring that they have the ability to take on an opponent head-on while utilizing their pet creation as more of a distraction/low-damage tool. The pet's survival has only a minimal importance to the "attacker" Engineer, and while it's nice to have one up and running the Engineer is much more concerned about their own welfare.

    Gadgeteer: A "gadgeteer" Engineer has sacrificed their ability to utilize weaponry even more than the "creator" Engineer - While weaponry is still a vital part of the "creator" setup, weapon choices are diminished for the "gadgeteer" due to their focus on improving tradeskills. The "gadgeteer" variant of Engineer relies on their ability to craft to focus more heavily on debuffing others while outputting a minimum of personal damage via a held weapon, and utilizing their pets to keep enemies distracted and confused while the Engineer themselves causes damage with specialized items that they themselves have crafted. A "gadgeteer" will never be the end-all, be-all of PvM or PvP - That said, though, just because someone's decided to go down a tradeskill-based route it doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to have fun and enjoy themselves in-game.

    Obviously none of these are set in stone at all, and part of the beauty of AO is that going down one road or another is never something that anyone's forced to do. Will there be a "best" setup for each of these three distinct types? Yes, or at least several "best" setups. Will hybridization completely and utterly gimp your character? No. AO is a game about picking, choosing, twinking and experimenting - The day we remove those core aspects from the game is the day we might as well shut down our servers, because we sure as hell ain't Anarchy Online anymore.

    At the end of the day, our goal is to try and give Engineers the ability to return to their core concept, while still offering support for other playstyles - No one here is saying you will be *forced* to suddenly drop your weaponry for an item which will make your pet better, nor are we saying you will have to reset all your IP and drop everything into tradeskills just to be competitive. At the end of the day, Engineers who choose to maintain a focus on their weaponry instead of their pets will be just as able to compete in PvP and PvM as anyone else. It's just a different flavour.

    Ultimately, though, it comes down to what you guys want and what will make you happy. If you think we're wrong on this, tell us we're wrong. If you think we're right, tell us we're right. Make suggestions, talk about what you want to see changed - Tell us what your own core vision for Engineers is. Remember, though, that what you view as an Engineer may not be what other people view as an Engineer - AO's a game which encourages all sorts of setups, tactics and playstyles, even for each individual profession, and everyone has their own opinion.

    Keeping the above in mind, what do you think? Do you feel that we're on the right track with our vision for the profession overall? What would you like to see for your profession out of this rebalancing effort? All opinions are welcome - Let's see what you guys think. =)
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  2. #2
    Turns out Tolkien had one more part of trilogy stashed deep down in basement: Lords Of The Rings 4 - The Wrath Of Kintaii

  3. #3

    Funcom employee

    Hold on, wait wait - Nobody post yet.

    *puts on the flame-retardant suit*

    Ok, go for it.

    Edit: dammit nick
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  4. #4
    Too late, i caught you naked!

    Not sure if i should be excited or worried.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    At the end of the day, our goal is to try and give Engineers the ability to return to their core concept, while still offering support for other playstyles - No one here is saying you will be *forced* to suddenly drop your weaponry for an item which will make your pet better, nor are we saying you will have to reset all your IP and drop everything into tradeskills just to be competitive. At the end of the day, Engineers who choose to maintain a focus on their weaponry instead of their pets will be just as able to compete in PvP and PvM as anyone else. It's just a different flavour.
    I feel that I should note that this is what I have been saying for a while, its just with any change people are afraid that they will be forced into it and not have choice.

    Right now the Assault engineer is the primary play style, I respect that and in fact use that. However I can not deny that the other play style should exist, and that players whom chose to use them should be able to use them just as effectively as the assault playstyle.

    I represent the whole of the engineer community not just those that post on the forums.
    Last edited by Technogen; Jan 8th, 2010 at 19:02:25.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  6. #6
    Kintaii, I'm a proud NEUTRAL HYBRID engineer.

    I can be found in the top 10 team/raid DD list
    I can be found fighting in the battlestations and sometimes tower battles
    I can be found in towns making items for people

    reason for this, is the fact that I cannot stand being limited/restricted.
    but I'm not the only one who feels this way. there are many other engineers out there who are the same.
    so when it comes to picking a role, it's ALL OF THE ABOVE.
    "When life knocks you on your butt, you have to get back up and punch it in the face." --DJ Ashval of GSP

    Nullified "Bitbucket" Deadcode - 220/25 Neut NanoMage Engi
    Bits10 - 150/14 Clan Opifex Trader

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    AO is a game about picking, choosing, twinking and experimenting - The day we remove those core aspects from the game is the day we might as well shut down our servers, because we sure as hell ain't Anarchy Online anymore.
    I guess you know you were damn close to that
    If you really keep on the track what you have just proposed, I say big thumbs up. Give stuffs to choose from, to experiment with. To me, experimentation is not testing the newest cookie-cutter weapon's dps on leets.

    Overall it was a nice post imo.

    edit:
    one more thing:
    "Ultimately, though, it comes down to what you guys want and what will make you happy."

    there will be never complete consensus, not even between two professionals, let alone engies in general. so keep that in mind
    HugeNick will never be happy, so do not put too much unnecessary effort in it :P
    Last edited by Aramsunat; Jan 8th, 2010 at 18:33:33.
    * Cryborg Nano-Technician - Have a shoulder to cry on!
    Aramlash Fixer - Can't catch me!
    Aramsunat Engineer - 4 Blockers of the Apocalypse


    Devil Inside

  8. #8
    I don't want to see "attacker" engineers go away at all. The part that I am miffed about is that no other form of engineer is as viable. If FC can make all 3 of those play styles relatively equal in terms of effectiveness (NOT dd) then engineers will be a success imo.

  9. #9
    I look forward to working with the rest of the player base and the devs to creating a stable balance between all of the play types for engineer.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  10. #10
    I don't mind having our role completely redefined as long as new one(s) are coherent and will remain supported, because current model of Assault Engineer is completely player-made and exits mostly despite our toolset, not because of it.

    That being said, i don't think you've explored the original Engineer theme deep enough. You've got a pet part covered, where is the shield expert part? What i personally would like to see is the Assault Engineer build and the opposite of it, Shield Expert, closer to RL combat Engineers, with limited damage but providing more solid defensive support through various types of shielding and debuffing those of opponents, with some possible hybridization of the two. Which to some extent exists right now , but hasn't been extended, explored or developed for ages.

    That's what to me is the core of Engineer combat theme.

    The tradeskill (Gadgeter) model seems completely forced and it doesn't at all adress the problem AO has with tradeskillers.

    Tradeskills has been always the rift going right through this (and Trader) community.

    Why? Call me elitist prick , but historically , tradeskillers were always gimp. They were gimp, they are gimp, last attempt to create tradeskill weapons (Remodulators) made them even more gimp , and apparently you intend to keep making them gimp.

    While i understand the need to secure community's need to have their items combined, you guys approach it from completely wrong angle.

    Mixing tradeskills with combat and making sub-par tradeskill builds will keep current status quo:
    tradeskililers are looked down upon, they cant get into teams, estabilished players hate them for giving Engineers bad name as profession who underperforms in team situations, and most of new players evolve from "I make stuff for cash" into "I kick ass with my bots and big guns", growing up out of tradeskilling and reseting or limiting them.

    The reality you have to face, is that majority of "actively" tradeskilling Engineers are actually non-played characters that are on accounts shared throughout entire organizations or groups of friends in order to make stuff, and the only way you are going to change that is by seperating combat from tradeskills , not mixing it up into sub-par combination.

    The only way you're going to solve that riddle is making it easier for player to TS while being top of their game in combat - which is already possible but takes an enormous effort that's frankly not really worth it, skipping personal satisfaction.


    a) significantly lower the requirements for most combines/introduce significant buffs to tradeskills, say, Alien City HQ could buff it a lot higher
    b) some hardass quests for items that add a lot of TS, or even some variation of completely IP independant system where you do 10x Scheol Quest get f.e. 'Mechanical Engineering Master' title and it sets your skill through the roof.

    It propably wouldnt hurt to open crafting for more professions too.

    Personally i'd go as far as going for some variation of WoW crafting system which might be too hardcore for most people but that's what i would do anyway.
    Last edited by IHaveHugeNick; Jan 8th, 2010 at 20:45:39.

  11. #11
    This whole matter of shouting 'death, death' is just everybody speculating, anyway, since nothing is actually set in stone. FC wanting to 'rebalance' is an interesting concept; we all reserve the right to be equally excited and worried.

    The community giving a fair amount of feedback, while not only criticizing everything that is shown, might help the developers a bit, so that they can at least get an idea about designing and not pump out more items that make the playerbase go .

    Pleasing everybody, like Aramsunat said, is virtually impossible, so it's up to FC to make the playerbase feel like we're being given the option to do as we want without feeling like any playstyle is on the short end of the stick. This is a tough task, I'm expecting to see a mix of good and bad, but hopefully it will all add up.
    Last edited by Solidstriker; Jan 8th, 2010 at 21:10:29.
    Solidstriker 220 Soldier- Pewpew Galore | Markerz 220 Engineer- Widowmaker
    Speedyadvy 165 Adventurer- PvP Gimp | Cruellia 164 Bureaucrat - Puppies!
    Nerf 219 Agent - From the Shadows | Swishswash 157 Fixer - Vector Tap
    Northaurora 85 Nano-Technician - Shimmering Light

  12. #12
    Part of me says yes, and part of me says no. A LOT of people chose engineer to build stuff, MAKING stuff is the core of engineers I think. The problem has been what you said, people who focus on tradeskills underperformed in teams, because tradeskills are not active part of killing.

    So, and just kind of a melding of ideas really, I think the "Gadgeter" model of playing should be much like your "shield" model. If there are things like the "fortress" where its an Item that has to be made before hand and then deployed in combat to let the engineer defend themselves while their pets attack. At the same time they would gain access to offensive items that work well with the TS/CD weapons.

    Say we all get access to many "made" offensive throwing grenades, they work normal for everyone but when combined with a TS/CD welding player they gain a secondary bonus, something that lets them be a bit more effective but not over powering.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  13. #13
    A lot of people choose Fixers to blitz stuff, but i don't see anyone suggesting Fixers should use lockpick guns or hack people of out their pants.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    or hack people of out their pants.
    Good job, now macro is going to code that in next week.

    Also, the IP/items/skill investment for TSing is slightly larger then Blitzing. I get what you're saying, but I think TSing being a much larger part of AO kinda overwrites the fact that its also not the primary part of the game.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  15. #15
    Come to think of it, its a nice idea for a nano.

    Nano Crystal (Capture Pants)

    Your oponnent drops his weapon to try and cover body parts with his hands, then in shame runs to the nearest corner.

  16. #16
    I loled, ok Im going away for a while I hope to come back to a good discussion thread.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  17. #17
    Fixer fear nano, eh?

    Or it could just be purely social, now that would be funny.
    Solidstriker 220 Soldier- Pewpew Galore | Markerz 220 Engineer- Widowmaker
    Speedyadvy 165 Adventurer- PvP Gimp | Cruellia 164 Bureaucrat - Puppies!
    Nerf 219 Agent - From the Shadows | Swishswash 157 Fixer - Vector Tap
    Northaurora 85 Nano-Technician - Shimmering Light

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Hi there. Let's talk about Engies for a few minutes.
    When you talk about these three different setups, is to then to follow that say: wannabe soldier engineer uses X weapon, tradeskill carebear uses Y weapon and creator engineer uses Z weapon? Or is there room to mix and match? The thing I am most worried about here is (surprise) grenade, as yet again nothing about it is mentioned... are we going to get stuck into using a certain weapon to be actually able to utilize that role?

    The scenario I see playing out is pistols for combat engineer, trade skill weapon for carebear engineer and grenade for defensive pet based engineer. What if I want to use a grenade weapon for combat engineer? Will there be gear to back that up? How about perk and nano support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyphos View Post
    I can be found in the top 10 team/raid DD list
    I can be found fighting in the battlestations and sometimes tower battles
    I can be found in towns making items for people
    Give this argument up already. It is fairly obvious from your first day at 220 that you have to pick something. Generally its pve, pvp or tradeskills. People who pick all three or try to mix and mash are really just half-assed at any job they attempt to do. Balls to the wall or gtfo.

    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    The tradeskill (Gadgeter) model seems completely forced and it doesn't at all adress the problem AO has with tradeskillers.
    Personally I find the biggest problem from it is that the tradeskillers actually have no benefit from that IP. Say for example all engineers get a pair of gloves which give +30 MC and TS. Now say there are armour upgrade kits for these gloves. If you have say 2000 ME you can add a +30 AAO buff to them, or if you have 2000 QFT you are allowed to add a +30 MC/TC armour kit.

    Basically what I'm getting at is that there should either be some craftable item which is better than non-tradeskillers get, or they should get some certain benefit for having these skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technogen View Post
    Part of me says yes, and part of me says no. A LOT of people chose engineer to build stuff, MAKING stuff is the core of engineers I think. The problem has been what you said, people who focus on tradeskills underperformed in teams, because tradeskills are not active part of killing.
    I think this is more-so just confusion on what 'making stuff' is. Making stuff can really mean, making robots, making shields, reflects, blockers, etc. Back in the day we where actually weapon and armour smiths using all the weapon kits and parts found in shops. Lets bring some of that back for this tradeskill engineer model. How about weapons only they can create (nodrop) which then fully embrace their tradeskill-ness.
    Grenadearchy Online
    Takun - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Crit Monster - Overlord of Mortar Kombat
    Grenades - Grenade Engineer [Equipt] - Leveling Monster - Advisor of Mortar Kombat

    Grenade Infos
    Pure DPS - [Setup] - 1701 Fling to cap Sloth - 1% crit is equal to ~28+ damage
    Agg/Def: 100% - 1440 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 150 Ranged Init to cap Sloth
    Agg/Def: 0% - 2640 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 1650 Ranged Init to cap Sloth

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Takun View Post
    Give this argument up already. It is fairly obvious from your first day at 220 that you have to pick something. Generally its pve, pvp or tradeskills. People who pick all three or try to mix and mash are really just half-assed at any job they attempt to do. Balls to the wall or gtfo.
    Pick two, as I say.

    Plus, cut him some slack. He said he could be found doing those things. For once he didn't claim to be any good at them. (lol @ "Top 10 DD")

    Quote Originally Posted by Takun View Post
    Personally I find the biggest problem from it is that the tradeskillers actually have no benefit from that IP. Say for example all engineers get a pair of gloves which give +30 MC and TS. Now say there are armour upgrade kits for these gloves. If you have say 2000 ME you can add a +30 AAO buff to them, or if you have 2000 QFT you are allowed to add a +30 MC/TC armour kit.
    Firstly, I hope you mean that you have 2000 QFT when you craft the item.

    Second, and Tech seems to agree with this, engi's should be most rewarded for having reasonable levels of tradeskills (ie: levels expected of a multi-role engi like myself while in combat gear). The extra effort to accquire combat-oriented items such as Supple-based armor instead of just sticking with Arith should not leave us at too much of a disadvantage.
    Last edited by Majoroutage_; Jan 8th, 2010 at 22:40:21.
    Because Race Yalm

  20. #20
    the Circle of IZartHugeTakun is not yet complete

    go go guys

    i think the proposed changes are good, and let the pitchforks rest until FC comes up with something more specific
    Last edited by Aramsunat; Jan 8th, 2010 at 22:45:44.
    * Cryborg Nano-Technician - Have a shoulder to cry on!
    Aramlash Fixer - Can't catch me!
    Aramsunat Engineer - 4 Blockers of the Apocalypse


    Devil Inside

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