A Frank Discussion About Discussions

[Takun]

Hai kids.

So seeing as how our fun thread got locked and I had some points to make, viola new thread.

First and foremost, I agree that we tend to get off track and that some debates can come down to the essential 'poo throwing' however I believe this is honestly what the engineer forums have come down to. Everyone is bitter, angry, and uses any old reference they can troll up to deface another person in an argument.

Why? Because beyond that our arguments carry no weight. If we have a debate on say, throwing grenades, points can get made for both sides (omg I want!, nono screw that idea!, or random crazy idea) and regardless of how well a point is made, logically presented or supported by the community nothing comes of it. It could be the best concept / idea / project ever presented and after the thread stops getting posts it dies.

Which basically means what? I can either write a 5 page paper explaining how I agree to that idea, or how I disagree with it... or can I make someone laugh by simply ripping the other engineers face off and acting like I rule the world. We all basically have egos here... some of us larger than others but attempting to quash them for the sake of a hands holding debate is just counter-intuitive to these forums as a whole. I understand your point of being the 'professional' or 'employee' of funcom and having to safe face by acting civil but honestly get off it, it is quite wasted here and extremely fake in my opinion if not insulting.

I don't think I have seen a thank you, please, or any respectful mark on these forums since day 1, that is just not how people operate. Although we disagree on something, I don't honestly hate (e-hate?) anyone that posts on these forums, on the contrary I respect most of you as I believe most of us honestly do.

Which leads me to my main point. Which is hopefully taken most-so as advice. If your going to post a thread detailing a massive profession change and then give us free reign to debate over that issue at least make sure you follow it to guide it in the right direction. You may have actually read every single post, posted in that thread but you never showed it along the way. The 'emo debates' which you and your ark lackeys attempted to clean up was imho your own fault for not chiming into the debate when necessary. When a concept is clouded or confusing you should be there to explain what it means or point out who has a better concept or idea on it instead of letting us duke it out then bringing in the mod tools later to clean it up.

In regards to 'trusting' the dev team or putting out some faith, what exactly do you think everyone has been using for the past 5 years already? Every time a new weapon or idea is brought up it is all 'on faith' for the dev team to pull it off correctly. And I have to be honest with you here, the track record isn't exactly awesome at this point. I don't understand why there is this big mystery about new content for funcom, don't you think actually putting out some specifics would be immensely helpful instead of "don't worry guys we got this" when that hasn't been the case for any content for like the past 5 years? I don't think you understand how helpful actually posting content and designs on the forums would be. Instead of telling me "new grenade gun design inc" how about a post which actual numbers of what you guys have come up with? I assume this would be a lot easier and healthier for the game then coding some weapon waiting for the people on test to get it and use it then having it go on live either broken, unbalanced or balanced after having a handful of people on test us it.

To emphasis this point this is why I stopped my subscription, I still enjoy playing AO however until the new content is actually on live and I can see it for my self I don't trust you guys enough, and there is not enough transparency within new content for me to pay you waiting to see if the 'big balancing patch' is actually worth paying for. I find it funny how many things you guys have borrowed from blizzard in regards to patch notes, forum design (funcom icon next to posts you guys post in) and ingame ideas (raids - raid frames) however I think you really have something special in having a game with a small crowd of dedicated veteran players and yet you seem to treat them like they are one of 100 million subscribers which you have to gloss over.

In regards to the whole technogen / nick / professionals drama issue. I wish someone would just come out and say something officially already. I understand if someones bum gets hurt over name calling, but instead of just cleaning posts either validate or negate his claims with your own counter argument and be done with it already. Someone has a concern that a professional is not qualified for the job, which is a serious claim to make and should be investigated like one, if by deleting posts and editing them you agree that its not, then simply say it instead of making it look like your just covering something up. Techs a big boy and can handle himself, so lets try to keep it that way from now on too plox.

Hugs,
Takun

[Kintaii]

This is going to be my absolute last post on this subject, as while I appreciate the sentiment behind what you're trying to say Takun you very easily could have addressed this to me via PM, instead of attempting to drag this out into the public forums and create even more discourse. At this point, the majority of you are either trolling just to troll, or are attempting to 'call out' the mods/Profs/myself, and quite frankly? That don't fly. So this is the last word on the subject - Any subsequent threads will be moderated under the "questioning moderation" rule.

I don't care what you or anyone else says - Just because this is the internet, just because it's the forums, just because you all feel like you "can", you do *not* have a license to troll here. Asking for people to act mature online is a bit of a stretch, I know, but I do it for a good reason. I do it because, as Means has said before, AO has grown beyond being some corporate product - It's in our hands now. The playerbase. The people who've played this game for years and genuinely, honestly, truthfully give a damn. That's me, that's Zarto, that's Ella and Aram and Nick and Techno. That's every playing person who bothers coming in here to give their opinion. We are a community of people who care about where AO is headed, and want to do everything we can to make it as good as possible. And at the end of the day? The only difference between me and the other people playing and supporting our product is that I can press the export button.

I wear many hats up here. Forums moderation. ARK assistant. Content creation. Writer. Graphic designer. You name it, odds are I do it. When I take the time to come and ask people here a question it's not because I'm wanting to stir the pot, or even try to trick people in any way - I come and ask because I need help, or information, or have something important to share. Now, I know that there are those out there who think that it's perfectly ok to act like screeching chimpanzees as soon as a dev posts somewhere, but guess what? With me, that's not going to fly. I come here out of a desire to get the community - the people who actively play and enjoy this game - to share their thoughts and desires on how we should proceed. The only rule is that I expect *respect*, both for the development team and for the other players. It isn't hard to say "I disagree, and these are the reasons why" instead of "omg u sux", regardless of who you're replying to. It isn't much to ask for - Just the same common courtesy you'd extend someone you meet in real life. There's no reason why conversation online should be any different, or any more vitriolic, than a conversation you'd have face to face.

Now, I can agree with what you said about posting hard numbers instead of vague ideas. If I had hard numbers to give at the moment I would; making said numbers isn't my job, however (and with good reason), and those who do make said numbers don't have numbers to post yet. Why? Because for some things we're still in the process of gathering feedback. If I were to suddenly drop a massive amount of changes on everyone's head without asking people what they want first, that to me would be an insult to the people who play the Engineer profession; instead I'm gathering feedback on what people want *before* we go and waste our time coming up with new systems that everyone and their mother hates. It'd be like me building someone a house without first asking them what colour they want the outside, or what they'd like the kitchen to look like - Sure, it's nice that I built them a house, but why just throw stuff together randomly when I could ask them what would make them happy? Trying to discern where we should go is just as important as actually getting there.

As far as your "something official" about Technogen goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again - People are free to complain if they want. What they aren't free to do is be insulting, or harassing in their commentary. Again, maturity is a lot to ask for on the internet, but I firmly believe that people can do it. I suppress my urges to type whatever it is that comes to my mind - If I can do it, so can the rest of you. I get that there are some of the forums trolls who don't like having Techno as one of their representatives - That's fine, and you're welcome to that opinion. What you're not welcome to do is act like an asshat in expressing that opinion. Particularly not here. If you break the rules of the forums, then you get moderated - It doesn't matter who you're posting about. All of that said, if you don't like Techno then you'll get your chance to speak with your vote in a few weeks; outside of that, there's a big difference between criticizing and flaming, and it'd do the lot of you a world of good to remember that.

As I said earlier, AO is a game that lives or dies on its community and playerbase. The people who care enough about this game to log in, play, and enjoy its content. We are all fighting toward the same goal here - We all want the same thing, we're all in the same boat. Instead of fighting against us in the dev team, instead of fighting against each *other*, you guys could try coming together for a common cause. Something to think about, at any rate.

Also, Takun, I'm sorry to hear that your account is still canceled. Hopefully, once you see some of the incoming changes, you'll even change your mind and try giving AO another shot - A lot of the grenade ideas we're working on were inspired by some of your posts from back in the day. However, I think it's very telling that even though you do not play this game, even though you proudly admit you've canceled your account and have some strange notion about us borrowing from other companies (because in-game raids and post icons on forums *totally* means we're ripping off WoW), you still come here and act like you're an active part of the community. I'm sorry if you're disappointed in your forums-going experience at the moment, but instead of bemoaning the fact that a development team has decided to take the time to actually converse with its playerbase (which, might I add, I would lay down good money that we are more interactive with our players than ANY other title out there, MMORPG or otherwise) perhaps instead look into ways of adding to those discussions fruitfully.

I'm closing this thread, and as noted above I do not expect to see any further follow-up conversation on the topic. This issue is now closed, and any attempts to respark it will be met with moderation. If anyone has any further questions you're free to send them to me via PM, wherein I will continue to spend my weekend (note: weekend, as in "I'm doing this outside work hours just because I feel like it and not because I'm getting paid") taking care of your concerns.