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Thread: OK, let's talk about new stuff

  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    That doesn't mean she doesn't want a secondary role for Enforcers. What do Enfs need in terms of team support? Umm... I rather believe that cast on other and aura reflects should be nerfed, not Enf support boosted.
    If you interest is nerfing soldiers tools, this isn't the right place to do it.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  2. #282
    Honestly, the changes enforcers are getting are piss poor and the additions dont make sense to me. We got some new buffs, which are nice and what we need/asked for in the past.

    Taunts are being nerfed considerably, but who cares pvm is so easy now (amirite lololol) and I have a feeling there are going to be several professions that will act as tanks so the whole, "omg i guts ta huld agg frum all da mobz" is going right out the window. Apparently enforcers dont need a lot of taunts I guess thats why Ice burn is getting nerfed and becoming just a craptastic improvement to CS that enforcers can now skip. Part of doing the quest line for some was because it taunted, now that it doesn't who the F cares.

    My main concern with our essence health nerf is the fact that tanking sector 42 may become extremely hard or impossible. I know that there are a few orgs that raid with very few people and I am unsure of the difficulty they have because of that, but I wouldn't want the ability to form a small raid in 42 taken away because on RK2 at least I dont see very many public 42 raids being advertised. I dont want to get side tracked with talking about 42 and yadda yadda yadda but to me that is the one place where having a lot of health is key.

    The 30k team absorb is rather useless especially at 7 second duration. I dont see any use in this nano line at all, anyone care to enlighten me? Yeah, it might be cool and yeah it might be one of those things that can take the place of an atrox SB but I dont find it viable.

    I am glad we are getting some added damage but to me it seems like a failed attempt to make the enforcer have a second role in the team when its not tanking. Plus the damage isn't the least bit significant in my opinion because the proc lines have a % chance thats based off MM along with how much damage you deal. I remember Harios asking us how high our MM skill was because it wasn't used for anything other than the taunt procs when the new challenger and rage nano were being worked on and the requirements for them were reduced as a result.

    Of course this is the balancing act so things will change and we will need to adapt. But I dont see enforcers getting 1600+ MM to get the full use out of the DD proc line.

    There are a lot of good ideas to give enforcers a secondary role in a team that is beyond just DD. If people want more DD they will look for a DD profession.

    What do you guys think?

  3. #283
    I think some of your rage is warranted. I don't think the taunt thing is as bad as it seems. The health nerf? I can't comment on how it will affect S42. It's the only raid I haven't tanked in. I do know it's very intense but my opinion of the whole S42 raid is very biased anyways (I think it's a terrible idea as a raid). I know Arrien is more experienced in that particular raid.

    The team absorb is a strange beast. I don't have excel at home but IIRC we get two that are on semi-decent timers. that have massive absorbs. I personally didn't like the idea of the team absorb, especially since I think it came at the expense of a better self absorb but I think that's one of those things that we have to try to see how it fits in when it's added with the other stuff. What is nice is that I recall they are usable even if you aren't in team so it seems the 7 second duration is reasonable ... I don't think FC want untouchable enfos for longer than that.

    There is some added DD and yes, it's a concern that enfos have a weak secondary role. FC devs are more than aware of this concern from Arrien and myself and there is movement on that front, though it's still in a direction that FC is dictating. FC doesn't seem to be concerned about the MM skill req on the elements line ... if you REALLY want it, you do have IP to max it. It does suck that many won't raise it to be able to self the highest nano. I'm not sure what the motivation was to leave it as it is but again, it was raised as a concern, considering other profs are getting their nanos 'self' adjusted in the whole process.

    We have done what we can and alot of ideas have been pitched to FC regarding the secondary role in team. It's up to them to decide if that's something they are willing to improve.
    Last edited by Obtena; Nov 27th, 2010 at 14:28:36.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  4. #284
    Not online atm, but i know I sit on well over 1500 MM in normal combat equip/perk setup. Im not too concerned about high reqs. Ofc i dont multi-wield, and i dont have sneakattack ip'ed...also skipped a bit on duck iirc, but i do have 2HB and 2HE maxed at the same time (cause i tend to swap between two setups from time to time).
    I can understand ppl with 1hb/1he/piercing/ME etc mixed setups though. Finding IP will mean some sacrifices for sure.

  5. #285
    The only encounter that I can see where a 30k absorb is warranted is in 42 when you get to AC and he pops adds and they explode. But still, 7 second duration isn't long enough (in general) for a mob or a group of mobs to do 30k damage. Even if you are in a situation where that happens than you have pulled too many mobs.

    Then there is the pvp aspect. Which makes it a really good nano.

    Honestly there wasn't a lot that needed balancing for enforcers in the first place, and these changes are a complete 180 to everything.

  6. #286
    Have some questions about team absorb
    1. Is dmg that "selfnuke" halved?
    2. It says cast team: Superior fortify. Is this an oversight and its supposed to be team absorb or does it cast both

    Agg management will get much harder and I can already see all the shades pointing at me and screaming gimp after they unloaded their perk stuff and went splat >.< I'll just blame the doc ^^
    Vetus
    Mikrometa

  7. #287
    Numbers in the doc aren't taking account PvP reductions. They are drafts and will be adjusted when they hit testlive server. So expect the 15k to be the final damage done on your enforcer, same with nemesis procs and so on.

    About shades complaining, they'll learn to wait and assist now. If they don't, they will die. Who cares if they whine, it's their fault.
    Last edited by NoGoal; Nov 28th, 2010 at 12:52:03.
    blah

  8. #288
    So... Were there any updates on the nano doc as far as the most recent update is concerned? Have not seen any enfos talk about it, so it's either a shush-shush conspiracy or nothing major was done.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    Honestly there wasn't a lot that needed balancing for enforcers in the first place, and these changes are a complete 180 to everything.
    Really? A complete 180? To everything? Can you be more specific or is this just drama for drama's sake?
    Last edited by Obtena; Nov 28th, 2010 at 14:40:32.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Really? A complete 180? To everything? Can you be more specific or is this just drama for drama's sake?
    1he and 1hb perks needed adjustment. Coon/absorbs needed to be re-worked. NR needed to be adjusted. Damage mitigation. Providing a worthy secondary role for enforcers so they aren't just viewed as tanks.

    I dont feel like making a TLDR post because most of it is outlined in the enforcer wishlist. Do I feel that enforcers were OPed in some aspects of the game? Of course I do. I am not asking for crazy powerful changes and some things we asked for we did get, but a good portion have not and a good portion of the changes aren't good.

    I feel that there is a lack of communication between us and the devs.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    I dont feel like making a TLDR post because most of it is outlined in the enforcer wishlist.
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    I feel that there is a lack of communication between us and the devs.
    There are 3 sticky wish list threads in the enforcer forum. Only one is a real wish list and wasn't updated for a while. There is your communication problem. I'd really like to read what you have to write though.

    I do agree that when I see the enforcer nano doc, it doesn't look very thrilling. But there is more to come.
    blah

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    1he and 1hb perks needed adjustment. Coon/absorbs needed to be re-worked. NR needed to be adjusted. Damage mitigation. Providing a worthy secondary role for enforcers so they aren't just viewed as tanks.
    OK, all known issues from years ago ... so again, what is FC doing that's a complete 180 from everything? Just because they aren't addressing topics that you find problematic doesn't mean they are turning the enfo profession on it's ear. From my perspective, some of the things they have done are addressing some of those things, some don't. Not all of those things are viewed as problems by everyone and won't be changed so set your expectations accordingly. There is still lots of opportunity for FC to address those items if they see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by MachSchau View Post
    I feel that there is a lack of communication between us and the devs.
    The communication between the community and the devs is facilitated by Arrien, myself and even the other professionals. If you feel we aren't doing something we should be, you need to tell us. We do tell you everything we can. Trust me, there isn't anything secret going on here. On the contrary, when I post a thread for secondary enfo team ideas to the community, and I get a pittance of responses, then it's hard for me to think that the lack of communication is entirely FC's fault.
    Last edited by Obtena; Nov 29th, 2010 at 15:40:21.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  13. #293
    I'm not thrilled with the enforcer doc in it's current state, but I'm also not completely unhappy about it. I think some of the nerfs were need, and some were harsher than needed.

    Things I'm happy with:
    * Absorbs/team absorbs: I actually like the final state we ended up with for these, and I think they'll make PvM pretty reasonable.
    * Team damage buff: I think this gives a good reason to have an enforcer tanking, even vs a single mob in a team w/ a soldier. I also like that it makes enf really attractive w/ multiple adds.
    * PvP taunt: This is something I've always thought would be awesome. I don't think it's going to be OP, and maybe the hard core PvP enforcers will think it's trash, but I think it will be FUN. I'll withhold other judgements for the playtesting.
    * Back and forth with the developers: When I started as professional, I was incredibly optimistic. Then that tanked and I was completely bitter. Now I'm a bit more realistic, but I do believe that if we take reasoned arguments to Genele, we can get some things changed. We're never going to get full rage run speed back, but they are open to listening.

    Things I don't really like:
    * Run speed: I am afraid of what our run speed will be like, and how it will hurt PvP and make PvM enf just less fun.
    * "Marginalization" of the enforcer: Seems to me there's a lot of fear that teams sit around "WTB enforcer" all the time, so that other professions need to be able to take our places. I feel that teams almost never wait for an enforcer, and don't want an enforcer if they can get one. I think we're starting to make progress on that in the current enforcer doc, but I don't think we're there yet.
    * Enforcer is a casting profession with no casting support: We're casting all the time, and nano costs on everything have gone up. Makes solitus the default enforcer breed, and nano delta implants required. Hopefully we can get this addressed in the item rework.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrien View Post
    We're never going to get full rage run speed back, but they are open to listening.
    Honestly you two should push for a something else. Rage is nothing more than an NR buff now since inits are moved to another nano entirely. Rage got neutered and there will be little reason in PVM to use the top nano when enfs can get enough NR with Infernal Rage to counter most mob nanos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  15. #295
    I have been pushing for FC to recognize the secondary enfo role issue .... which they seem to be trying to solve with a "let's make enfos the preferred tank" solution. I don't think it can work.

    Putting aside the nanoskills and costs shock, Masochist Force does make enfos a preferred tank for sure. The reduction in the team emergency and team layers could address the secondary enfo role issue (but not at those nano costs).
    Last edited by Obtena; Nov 29th, 2010 at 22:45:12.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  16. #296
    I meant specifically in terms of Rage, Obtena. With inits on a different nano Rage makes even less sense. It's a temporary NR buff with the ability to remove nano programs and nothing more. I'd rather see it become a buff with a longer duration at this point, but I'd settle with it removing every hostile buff in game regardless of NCU cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  17. #297
    Neither Obtena nor I are pushing for Rage changes. I think we both realize that's one point the devs aren't willing to compromise on. I mentioned it only to circumvent the "Well if the devs are willing to compromise, tell them to give us Rage back the way it was!" comment.

  18. #298
    ^^ Truth

    I don't think the current version of Rage is inappropriate. They took out the RS inlight of some other changes happening in the game. They took of the DoT (nice). They put the inits into it's own, proper buffing line. Sensible. If we were to push for Rage additions, um, like what? I think the only thing I would push for is to make it rage break a larger number of hostiles, clearly with NT roots included.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    I think the only thing I would push for is to make it rage break a larger number of hostiles, clearly with NT roots included.
    Actually I was just about to suggest that. I don't think that that is unreasonable, especially with the cooldown. You could also ask to up the damage shield I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopecz View Post
    Actually I was just about to suggest that. I don't think that that is unreasonable, especially with the cooldown. You could also ask to up the damage shield I suppose.
    Yeah heaven forbid at least one class can reliably root you.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

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