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Thread: OK, let's talk about new stuff

  1. #1

    OK, let's talk about new stuff

    We have some authorization to talk about some topics and for enfos, this is what we have been given so far as far as the devs thinking goes:

    1.Mongo - In short, it will be improved over all Title Level Ranges. The direction to do that appears to be the addition of nanos in the line, as well as a 'rescaling'. As we know, there is a gap to fill there around tl6, early TL7.

    2. Rage - Seems we are getting a cooldown on that. Don't get too upset ... many things are, including the debuffs that Rage is meant to remove. The timing of cooldown will definitely have implications on how enfos will use it in PVP. Think of them, and discuss it.

    3. Taunts - Again, changes slated for this across the board for all professions as I understand, but specifically for us, GOOD changes, while for others, taunt nerfs, which of course they will likely appreciate in some cases. A welcome change again for PVM enfos leveling.

    4. HP - OK here is the bad news. It's getting lowered, with the most focused dev attention on the endgame. There is no word on how, but I think you can imagine the most likely target ... I wouldn't assume that there will be no impact to PVP either, since there aren't details yet, so of course, let's not forget that HP is a defense for us and if it's nerfed in PVP, even I will say it, that's pretty lame.


    There isn't any specific information, like numbers or that kind of thing. These appear to be in the 'concept' phase ... ideas. What that means? You have some ability to influence these ideas with your rational, logical, non-flaming commentary. These are the topics currently on the minds of the devs for the rebalancing.

    OK so fire away
    Last edited by Obtena; Jan 7th, 2010 at 03:13:27.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  2. #2
    So the concept is: "We'll make enfos the nerfest prof"

    All of the things mentioned are nerfs.
    None of which, need to be adjusted in any way currently? Every other class has some new tidbit, exciting new directions, yet enforcers are 100% down?

    Clearly there is more on the table that can be seen for now, but lol, that has to be the worst "incoming news!" that any profession has received thus far, and realistically enforcers, while not gimp, certainly wouldnt the the first in line for a direct nerf on every single front that they have.
    Don't be lonely anymore.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    4. HP - OK here is the bad news. It's getting lowered, with the most focused dev attention on the endgame. There is no word on how, but I think you can imagine the most likely target ... I wouldn't assume that there will be no impact to PVP either, since there aren't details yet, so of course, let's not forget that HP is a defense for us and if it's nerfed in PVP, even I will say it, that's pretty lame.
    NOOOOOO!!!!!

    Holy crap this is the most epic fail change ever. HP should be going UP! Not down so that they can keep their stupid 30% cap mechanic >.<
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  4. #4
    I dont like any of this. Not one bit.
    If they plan on nerfing the crap out of us in our strong points... then they better back it with some pretty good compromises.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  5. #5
    Hp nerf... fair- its needed to balance pvm... besides even without sl essences we can hit 43k ish hp without sacrifices (yes I do use Merc instead of CC...)

    Rage nerf is ridiculous... enfs get kited enough by ranged characters as it is, but rage gives us a chance to fight back. It keeps us from getting unbreakably rooted or snared (except for 1 or 2 nanos) and turns us into a veritable wrecking ball. But, it is a nano that we have to keep running, which is not easy to do... Rage, mongo, challenger, absorbs... 4 nanos that I have to constantly cast to be viable... If you're going to kill my rage then give me more constant NR, and enough AR to perk my targets when I'm in range of them instead of chasing them around.

    Final thoughts... Don't mess with an enfs tanking ability... I have to keep rage running to be able to cast my absorbs quickly enough to keep from being interupted in pvm... if I can't cast my absorbs while tanking my "primary function as a PVM tank is massacred... don't kill a pvm game on account of pvp...

  6. #6
    But I like my HP the way it is.

    Maybe we are getting something else to constantly soak up damage then just pure HP ?
    Major "Grimclaw" Sinister Solitus - Enforcer | Alucard "Opigrim" Ashwell Opifex - Shade | Queen "Shoomi" Hex Opifex - Keeper

  7. #7
    Yeah, but you'd think if that was planned, it'd be written there.
    It isnt written there.
    There you have it.

    Unless all roots can be removed with a FM stim, a rage cooldown is going to be an absolute end of the class, unless the cooldown is something like 5 seconds, which would make the fact it has a cooldown completely pointless...
    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

  8. #8
    Stupidest changes ever. Seriously?! Less HP? That's just what I want: getting capped with only 20k hp instead of closer to 40k. Good job on this one FC.

    Next they'll be telling us biococoon is no longer part of our toolset.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  9. #9
    Well as for hp I don't see why that should be changed, imo enforcers get as much hp as they're supposed to right now. This change would make sub 220 enforcer unable to tank endgame encounters. I remember having 25k hp at 215 and successfully tanking apf and pande. Now I have closer to 40k. So that means 215 enfs without full endgame gear will have like what, 15k hp? I believe at least 20k is absolutely neccessary to tank any endgame encounter.

    Lockout on rage is long overdue imo, it's way OP without it, the tiny DoT on RK and even the DoT in SL aren't enough drawbacks to justify the HUGE boost that it gives, don't think there's another nano ingame that would be comparable. It might be adjusted to not affect PvM, depending on duration. The main thing enfs need rage in PvM is to move with DB ess running. So, say, you stop to tank a blob of mobs and you don't need rage during that time. When you're done you cast rage and that should give enough time to move to the next blob of mobs and stop there for the duration of the cooldown. That's how I see it.
    Techno "Calamite" Witch -- 220/22 soli crat
    Hbar -- 220/28 nano NT
    Electropanic -- 170/17 opi NT
    Insanenomore - 174/17 soli engi
    Darksmile -- 220/21 nano enf
    Drifting -- 150/8 nano MP
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    got more, but don't remember their names

  10. #10

    Looking good so far...

    End game enforcers are impossible to alpha, and thus kill reasonably. I regularly survive gank attempts by 5-6 people, even when being SB rooted and such (If I want to). Our HP is what allows this to happen. (In combination with everything else).

    I would be willing to trade some HP for some "active defense" along the lines of cocoon, troll form, highway, mongo, and absorb spam. Opening up a window of /kill while still allowing enforcers to play their role.

    Obvisouly the HP nerf would come with a wide nerf to other professions, so I wont judge it too much. It does make me nervous. But I will happily accept it if I know similar changes are being made to other professions.

    I can admit our HP is rediculous (40-80k easily). Just like trader drains, doctor heals, fixer evades, crat fears and the endless list of /whines.


    All I see from this post is.

    Casting professions can now use their tools on us. Instead of relying on AS.

    We will have better taunting abilities in PvM, specifically at 180-215.

    Our bloated HP bars will take a beating.


    I am not too concerned, I havent even read the other professions post, but I cant wait. lol
    Herk Mad! Herk Crush!!

    Main: Herkulease

    Alts:
    Toba
    Cosmicmayhem
    Wantsumore
    Blessfu

  11. #11
    1.Mongo - In short, it will be improved over all Title Level Ranges. The direction to do that appears to be the addition of nanos in the line, as well as a 'rescaling'. As we know, there is a gap to fill there around tl6, early TL7.
    This sounds like a problem for tl5- twinks. I guess they will need 800~900 nanoskills to cast the highest mongo (new higher one or "rescaled mongo crush?"). Why I mention tl5 specific? Because this is where the big gap is, since you can cast mongo crush (the top rk mongo) at lvl 120 or so self and maybe pre-100 with OB and twinking. Yes they can reach 800-900 nanoskills but drains will be more of a problem then (no more able to mongo when having one drain running). For my sec10 enf I have around 700 nanoskills, with a new/rescalled mongo I may need more IP or something, or need to IPR some other stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    2. Rage - Seems we are getting a cooldown on that. Don't get too upset ... many things are, including the debuffs that Rage is meant to remove. The timing of cooldown will definitely have implications on how enfos will use it in PVP. Think of them, and discuss it.
    I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hate this, my sec10 enf is build around his ability to spam layers, as well as needing the NR to survive decently. I asume this is happening because all the whiners about rage being OP in lowbie pvp. If funcom compensates us with higher +melee/+nanoinit buffs for around 600-700 nanoskills (maybe improve the current one, same nanoskill reqs but init buffs equal to the ones given by infernal rage) i'd be okay with this but I may as well reroll crat. Really this is a BIG PVM nerf imho

    Also this sucks for raiding since we will be losing the runspeed buff but I gues they may remove the snare on sl ess finally?
    Last edited by Synre; Jan 7th, 2010 at 10:00:34.
    main: level 220/30/70 enf [ROXTON]
    alts: level 150 sec10 enf
    + a few gimp enfs

  12. #12
    I've noticed how most of the rebalancing posts has been vague, and im sure most peope would want these questions answered. if you cant give us a answer it would be appreciated if you could give us some potential outcomes of how things could turn out.

    Mongo: How will it be improved? Better hot, more taunt, more hp (comflicts with point 4), comes with something extra we haven't seen?

    Rage: Roughly, how long will cool out be? 10 secs, 1min, 5mins, and how will this cooldown compare to other profs root/snare cooldowns? (and what will be done about grafts, even if rage cooldown=root cooldown, grafts can pull that out of balance).

    Side: Speaking truthfully, i would think that root timer would be lower then rage timer, because rage alows us to get up close and personal, but if timer is equal, it would provide no benifit to root enfos.

    Side2: What about the runspeed? When i need to get some where fast and in a hurry, I chain rage, will something be done to make it so RS buff stays or will it be seperated? Or will it just be ignored. Now that we are more suseptable to roots and snares, the RS bonus will provide less benefit with the exception of when we are facing profs that have no means of slowing us down.

    Side3: on 2 or more root/snare profs vs enfo PVP enfos will become just as suseptable to NR2 solds, they may not exist, but my comparison still stands.

    taunt: will it be as efficient as mongo? or at least effective enough to replace it when you cant mongo?

    less HP: if we loose it it will be from A: nano (probobly) or B perkline (probobly not)

    A1:ess: if hp is removed from ess it will be a twinking (and maybe adding enough to get HD to 2 secs) exclusive buff, i hope it doesnt happen
    A2:shield: would make line near worthless, with exception of last one, if a taunt proc were added to every nano instead of just last it would retain usefullness
    A3:mongo: would reduce hp by a noticable amount, but still be usefull, if hots are adjusted properly removing hp would be in no way a nerf over all
    A4:mongo ess: not at that point yet, but HP does seem a bit ridiculous

    could be a % removed from all, would make it so its less effective in low lv pvp

    B1: form of troll: with snare being reduced on troll form, this will be ok in pvm, and of minimum value in pvp (with exception of full auto and aimshot) worth perking to a point, but HP is the central reason to keep perks in this.
    B2: manner of mongo: its a taunt line, not HP line.
    B3: collosal health: ok heals/hot might be worth it depending on its compitition.
    B4:mutate: depending on breed, ai perks will be avalable or they wont be, highway is a good buff, but the HP could be removed from this as well.

    side note: with making AS interuptable, and evadeable (and agent aimshot wont do more damage then burst, according to there proffessional), the only time it will be able to be used is if either the enfo is taken by suprise, or is rooted/snared, so thats 1 HUGE hit less. dont forget parry will block 1 free hit (maybe more) so our defense will not suffer to much, unless FC takes things to far that is.
    Last edited by lostlife; Jan 7th, 2010 at 10:03:03.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lostlife View Post
    Rage: Roughly, how long will cool out be? 10 secs, 1min, 5mins, and how will this cooldown compare to other profs root/snare cooldowns? (and what will be done about grafts, even if rage cooldown=root cooldown, grafts can pull that out of balance).
    Graft roots are broken with 1 FM stim. Rage cooldown will likely be on the same timer or close to that of root/snare lockouts.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  14. #14
    I think the rage nerf is simply to deal with enforcers and their ability to escape a sticky situation too easily.

    It will just make snares and roots more effective vs us. I imagine the init and nano resist will stay the same. Runspeed I dont know, as they had mentioned a sweeping nerf for it.

    I would like to caution Funcom though. Part of why we are tough is because we are mobile. An enforcer that keeps getting rooted will drop like a brick. Don't go overboard in regards to the root/hp nerf combo.

    We stand still when our defenses are up. We only start moving when they are gone. At that point we loose hp pretty quickly.
    Herk Mad! Herk Crush!!

    Main: Herkulease

    Alts:
    Toba
    Cosmicmayhem
    Wantsumore
    Blessfu

  15. #15
    i can deal with all the other stuff but cooldown on rage? rage is the single most defining tool of enfs, without it we have **** NR, **** runspeed, cant cast layers vs melee profs or anything that kites and we have no other defense against roots/snares. In short its a game breaker for enfs.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    We have some authorization to talk about some topics and for enfos, this is what we have been given so far as far as the devs thinking goes:

    1.Mongo - In short, it will be improved over all Title Level Ranges. The direction to do that appears to be the addition of nanos in the line, as well as a 'rescaling'. As we know, there is a gap to fill there around tl6, early TL7.
    This...is....GREAT! Tanking becomes so much harder from 180-215 because of no imongo. You basically have to spam Mongo Crush or premongo on mobs just to hold agg off of 220's. This is a much needed boost in pvm and for tanking between 180-215 with the taunt increase and taunt decrease on other profs. Everything else sucks though

  17. #17
    I have been looking over the various profession forums trying to see how my play style fits into this "rebalance".

    I play a dual logged setup of an enforcer and a doc. I tank for my small org and we are closing in on the ability to complete a lot of content (12m, zods, apf with typically 5 toons).

    The main issue I see from the enf stand point is the HP nerf. During encounters like 12m, mitaar, or the beast where hp buffs are lost fairly quick the over all reduction of enf hp leaves there being a need for either 2 tanks or 2 docs. With the changes to docs its possible that a doc will not be a very viable dmg person meaning they just take up raid space.

    If a HP nerf goes in and its fairly large I will end up finding a new game to play as the PvM playstyle i enjoy with my small group of RL friends might become more trouble then enjoyment.

    I will with-hold the omgwtf freak out until solid numbers are posted. I just have bad feelings that the PvM side of the game (that finally trickled down to where smaller groups could do stuff) will be forced back up to larger groups. All of it in the name of a PvP rebalance.

    Holding my judgements for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glarawyn
    Nah, the general perception of Adventurers in AO is that we're a DD profession with fur.
    Achiever 60.00%, Explorer 73.33%, Killer 53.33%, Socializer 13.33%

  18. #18
    im just wondering is the hp nerf across the profs or just enfs? coz really hp is the only thing that makes us a viable tank so what giefs?

  19. #19
    From my perspective this is mixed news, with the possible negatives easily outweighing the positives.

    My perspective is that of a leveling PvM Enfo who doesn't (want to) PvP.

    Reworked/Scaled Mongo: has the potential of being really positive. Holding Aggro around TL6 can be a pain and if this is addressed then that'd be really good for new generations of Enfos.

    Taunts: sounds like a win for the same reasons

    Rage: pls, pls, pls don't "fix" that. Spamming 'layers' is a key tanking tool and this would nerf that. If Rage is really OP in PvP then make the cooldown only work in BS and the Arenas.

    HP: our role is to stand there and have mobs beat the crap out of you. Lower HP and nerfed Rage so you can't spam layers = huge nerf to tanking ability.

    So, i see the Rage/HP combo changes adding up to an epic /fail

    Really hope that our Enfo profs can talk some sense into the Devs.
    Sawbones2 220/22 NM Doc, General of Pantheon
    Rootntootm 220/25 Soli Crat
    Rockmsockm 212/19 Trox Enfo
    Swaptioneer 175/13 Opi Tradah
    Sliderule 134/11 Soli Engie

  20. #20

    Funcom employee

    We will not nerf enforcer health that much. The main target for this nerf is Mongo's Ultra Improved Behemoth. It will be lowered, this will mainly affect PVM and duels. On the other hand it is likely that we will lower the level requirement on the other SL essence nano programs.

    The rage cooldown will be balanced with the new root/snare durations for pvp so the lockout will not be longer than 8-15 seconds.

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