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Thread: Report back from your represenatives

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Berinda View Post
    Specifics haven't been worked out, but ideas for improving assault rifles that have are being considered include adding fling shot, adding unique perk actions/special attacks only available to assault rifles (Questra and I suggested integral grenade launcher and underslung shotgun special attacks obtainable as upgrades/coming standard), and possibly procs to simulate armor piercing ammunition and precise aiming. The devs are extremely resistant to giving additional attack rating to assault rifles, but are not opposed to assault rifle only procs. We'd like to hear what you think about these possibilities.
    What about getting to choose your ammo load outs kind of like fixers get Permorpha bullets. Soldiers could have like Depleted Uranium slugs for higher temporary damage. Or going along with the shotgun theme you could have Bean Bags for a short duration stun. Could also have High Explosive ammo with an AoE or something.

    Just a suggestion.

    /discuss
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  2. #122
    they are rolling back on reflects and absorbs while adding a hard cap on our reflects and taking away PU and AS swap all in one patch? and rrfe will still not be self only. ok i officially give up on this patch, from the 20th, good luck ingame soldiers, i am done


    honestly B its been what 3 weeks since profs gave us some info and so far since then only that came out? yeah, you guys gonna wait for another year or two before this even hits live.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by heartless888 View Post
    they are rolling back on reflects and absorbs while adding a hard cap on our reflects and taking away PU and AS swap all in one patch? and rrfe will still not be self only. ok i officially give up on this patch, from the 20th, good luck ingame soldiers, i am done


    honestly B its been what 3 weeks since profs gave us some info and so far since then only that came out? yeah, you guys gonna wait for another year or two before this even hits live.
    Help me out here, isn't rolling back reflect changes a good thing? I thought reflects got nerfed (which means TMS'd people can be 30% capped etc etc).

    Or am I missing something else?

    Higher than 90% reflects, yeah, I can understand that being prevented, but otherwise, reflects don't need a nerf...
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  4. #124
    they are rolling back on reflects and absorbs while adding a hard cap on our reflects and taking away PU and AS swap all in one patch? and rrfe will still not be self only. ok i officially give up on this patch, from the 20th, good luck ingame soldiers, i am done
    And you don't think adding fling, and possibly procs and new special attacks to assault rifles, while bringing out a new perkline to do half of what PU does and reworking Heavy Ranged to make up for the other half is an improvement over being able to AS? As for the reflect nerf, anything less than 90% is going to be unreasonable. After the changes to the NM genome, how many soldiers run around with more than 90% reflects most of the time? Additionally, don't you think the ability to do some damage to people under coon is a worthwhile addition?

    Also, after the patch, if things are worked right, soldiers will be viable while using any ranged weapon. There's going to be less cookie cutter and a lot more awesome.

    The changes are big, and a little scary. They also balance the game. After five years of playing AO, I got the sense that previous dev teams - aside from a few notable individuals still on the team - really didn't care too much and shoved crap out the door so they could collect their paychecks. Contrary to belief, the current AO team cares. Their interest is fairness. PU isn't being locked out of the vast majority of soldier toolsets because it's overpowered or some designer has a secret vendetta against soldiers - PU is being changed to work like every other weapon line. To make up for it, there's a new perk line being worked on and changes to old perks. There's also no rule stating that further improvements won't be made through nanos or items.

    In rare cases that we do get outright nerfs, in the larger picture it's balanced by nerfs to other professions. Think of it this way - in exchange for lack of triples and whatever changes will be made to BR, we trade the ability to gain 100% reflect to make using our only defense a viable option again.

    honestly B its been what 3 weeks since profs gave us some info and so far since then only that came out? yeah, you guys gonna wait for another year or two before this even hits live.
    Honestly? It's been exactly a week, check the date of the original post in this topic. This isn't going to be "Wednesdays with Berinda"; my and Q's jobs as professionals are to tell the developers our thoughts, and thoughts of the playerbase. In turn, as they finalize changes or get a clear picture of the changes they're making, they ask us to share this information in this forum. No system is perfect, and the main appeal of this system is it works where other attempts have failed.

    I am not responsible in any way for the rate at which information is released or the rate at which game content is generated. I also don't feel threatened by forum temper tantrums when that fact displeases you. We are all in a position here to make the soldier profession better than it's ever been. And by that I don't mean immortal juggernauts that one-shot people in PvP, I mean a smoothly playing, balanced class that can dish out the damage as well as we can take it.

    You can have your voice and your opinion added to this conversation, or simply freak out every time you're mildly displeased. I think we'd all be better off if you did the former instead of the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  5. #125
    i was referring to the perk docs but ok

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Help me out here, isn't rolling back reflect changes a good thing? I thought reflects got nerfed (which means TMS'd people can be 30% capped etc etc).

    Or am I missing something else?

    Higher than 90% reflects, yeah, I can understand that being prevented, but otherwise, reflects don't need a nerf...

    no see, i dont want a roll back on reflects and absorb, why? because then people will be unkillable by all soldiers, i dont care about my own survival, but if they rolled back it means people with rrfe wont ever die, esp not with 30% caps now, i dont want my reflects to work better again if it means i cant cap anyone in pvp anymore

    but once again, we only get half the info of half an info, we still dont know jack, thats why i give up, the info we get is so minimal that it leads to believeing the actual patch wont be out for another year+

    they are probably planning to launch that patch with the new engine....and you know how that went

  7. #127
    The perk docs are very much a work in progress. As for new information, the more time devs take talking to the profs, the less time they're taking actually implementing changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by heartless888 View Post
    no see, i dont want a roll back on reflects and absorb, why? because then people will be unkillable by all soldiers, i dont care about my own survival, but if they rolled back it means people with rrfe wont ever die, esp not with 30% caps now, i dont want my reflects to work better again if it means i cant cap anyone in pvp anymore

    but once again, we only get half the info of half an info, we still dont know jack, thats why i give up, the info we get is so minimal that it leads to believeing the actual patch wont be out for another year+

    they are probably planning to launch that patch with the new engine....and you know how that went
    Well, lets look at this.

    A roll back on absorbs means:

    Advies are unkillable by Soldiers. Well, they already are.
    Engineers are unkillable by Soldiers. Well, they already are.
    Keepers would stand a better chance vs Soldiers. However your massive attack rating vs mediocre dodge defence would only serve to even this fight up some.
    Enforcers are easy pickings for a Soldier. An absorb change would tip the scales a little more towards the enforcer but I highly doubt it would have the game breaking effect you think it would.

    So, on to the reflect "change". How does reflects being stronger hurt the Soldier, in the long run, again?

    Instead of your usual "OMG I HAVE PLAYED EVERYTHING AT 220 AND FIND IT TOTALLY OP'D COMPARED TO SOLDIER" diatribe, could you provide some details, or even, god forbid, numbers?
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Well, lets look at this.

    A roll back on absorbs means:

    Advies are unkillable by Soldiers. Well, they already are.
    Engineers are unkillable by Soldiers. Well, they already are.
    Keepers would stand a better chance vs Soldiers. However your massive attack rating vs mediocre dodge defence would only serve to even this fight up some.
    Enforcers are easy pickings for a Soldier. An absorb change would tip the scales a little more towards the enforcer but I highly doubt it would have the game breaking effect you think it would.

    So, on to the reflect "change". How does reflects being stronger hurt the Soldier, in the long run, again?
    soldier stand chance vs advy but after the changes it will be harder
    enfs itis always close fight enfs die in the last 5sec of the ams after reworking cocon .. .. it will be really hard ..
    about keepers add fixing the cocon to the stuff keeper getting so i don't think keepers will be killable by soldiers any more ..
    engi itis no chance so i don't care
    so what is the result
    soldier lost the only easy kill <keepers>
    enfs will stand toe to toe vs soldiers may pwn them in duels . . .
    soldier losing any chance to kill advi
    engi can solo 2-3 soldiers
    thats so sweet , and what we getting in return ?
    reflect nerf ?
    our FA barly land so when we manage to debuff our target and about to dmg them and we were lucky enough to cap our fa there will be cocon standing there to eat 3 caped fa thats really ridiculous
    Last edited by randomalpha; Jan 14th, 2010 at 01:39:45.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Berinda View Post
    And you don't think adding fling, and possibly procs and new special attacks to assault rifles, while bringing out a new perkline to do half of what PU does and reworking Heavy Ranged to make up for the other half is an improvement over being able to AS? .
    *Droolz*

    Quote Originally Posted by heartless888 View Post
    no see, i dont want a roll back on reflects and absorb, why? because then people will be unkillable by all soldiers, i dont care about my own survival, but if they rolled back it means people with rrfe wont ever die, esp not with 30% caps now, i dont want my reflects to work better again if it means i cant cap anyone in pvp anymore
    I seem to remember, a few yrs ago, a Doctor strike, where they were protesting something or another.
    Best way to fix this is not buff anyone with RRFE. (wow, I really lit the fuse on that one, didnt I?)

    Personally, tho, I feel RRFE should be self only. No other buff in the game has its impact.
    Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Because we said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This nano blocks CH. This is intended.

  11. #131
    Refusing to buff RRFE will just result in people grabbing engis, until they forget soldiers even exist.
    Engis are pretty much the only ones this will affect, because they won't get the usual 50ish% reflect.

  12. #132
    This just in: If they remove being able to do capped hits on absorbs, then it will no longer be possible to cap soldiers through mirror shields.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatech View Post
    Refusing to buff RRFE will just result in people grabbing engis, until they forget soldiers even exist.
    Engis are pretty much the only ones this will affect, because they won't get the usual 50ish% reflect.
    Not as long as Pre-Nullity and Gazump excist. Teamwork ftw.
    Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Because we said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This nano blocks CH. This is intended.

  14. #134
    Berinda: This just in: If they remove being able to do capped hits on absorbs, then it will no longer be possible to cap soldiers through mirror shields.

    So have they forgotten about lowhp NTs?

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Berinda View Post
    This just in: If they remove being able to do capped hits on absorbs, then it will no longer be possible to cap soldiers through mirror shields.
    Are we really comparing the ability to blow through a 10K coon with 1 FA to reducing damage under AMS?

    Let's compare:

    Changing coon back to what it was means that it will take (against a prof like an advy @ current HP), something like 2.5 FAs to burn through it, assuming you land enough bullets each time. On an enf, if they end up reducing their HP enough, it'll take 1-2.

    Taking damage under AMS at the moment, even assuming your opponent is using FA (so 15K cap) and only 87% reflect, results in: 1950 damage taken. If THAT change is rolled back, so that reflects apply after the cap, then, assuming 23K hp (a solid average between soli and trox SMG/AR setups), you take: 897 damage.


    Assuming I did all these calculations correctly (if I've interpreted the changes correctly...I've only been playing for 2+ years, so I'm not entirely familiar with the systems in place before then), then soldiers avoid 6K damage over the life of an AMS from FA. Of course, there's only one prof that's using a 11s capped FA consistently in PVP....any guesses? Even adding in how other damage would be affected by this, say you avoid 10K damage (FA+burst+perks). Right now, with AMS the way it is, that barely makes a difference. Not many professions attack you under AMS, and even fewer can truly reduce your HP. Between battle prepared kits, stims, perks, and HD, the only professions that really take a decent amount of HP out are shades/MA. And neither profession really bothers doing anything to AMS right NOW, why would they after the changes?

    Now, let's look back at coon again. Coon is a little bit different in its application than AMS. All the professions that have access to it have at least moderate self healing abilities, bar engies. Let's ignore engies at the moment, since we're in the soldier forum and a loss to an engineer is expected. So, that leaves advies, enforcers, and keepers. Now, you may ask, why is coon not the same as AMS? After all, both abilities give significant damage mitigation abilities over a short period of time. The difference is the healing ability. When soldiers' AMS run out, they have 40 seconds of defenselessness. That means that professions who are waiting out the AMS know they have 40 seconds to take down the soldier with out any worry that their damage would be for naught. A good soldier can survive a couple AMS downtimes, especially against a profession like a keeper or enforcer, but not against professions like MAs/shades/(good) adventurers, etc.

    Meanwhile, against coon, from the viewpoint of a soldier, you MUST burn through the coon in order to damage the character using it. Why? Because if you simply try to ignore coon, much like other professions ignore AMS, then you not only give the opponent the 30 seconds to heal up, but they also retain their healing abilities once it has run out. They are NOT left defenseless. Could you imagine just spotting enforcers 30 seconds right now? You'd have no chance. Leaving an adventurer 30 seconds while not damaging them is laughable. An adventurer is a tough fight as it is; give them 30 seconds of free time and you might as well alt+f4. If you're not able to get through coon in a reasonable amount of time and cause at least a little damage, you're in trouble. Changing coon to take into account the 30% cap means, as outlined above, that advies could take 2-3 10+ bullet FAs, keepers could take 2 or so, and enforcers, depending on their HP situation, could take anywhere from .5-1.5 (who knows how their HP will end up after this rebalance). Enforcers may not end up being THAT much different for a soldier, but there is the potential. The simple fact of the matter remains, though, that it will definitely make a significant difference against keepers and adventurers - one that might make keepers a much more difficult fight than they are at the moment (not a bad thing) and totally destroy our already slim chances against an adventurer (a very bad thing). Not the greatest news to a profession that already has, in my opinion, few 'easy' fights in BS without AS.

    With coon being the different animal that it is, compared to AMS, there's no way you can compare coon changes to reflect changes. Although it is obviously difficult to imagine how the AAO/AAD and healing systems will work once all the changes have gone through, we can only speculate from the current state of things, and going back to the old ways will result in further disadvantages for soldiers - the only profession in the game that relies on a short term defense followed by COMPLETE lack of defense (hell, you even get 10s of 0% reflect if you're truly unlucky).

    As for all those who say, "Well, you already can't kill an adventurer/engi, enfos are already close, and keepers meh," keep in mind: this rebalancing act is not about keeping the status quo. ESPECIALLY, using an argument like "well, you can't kill xxx prof anyway" is not a good way to go about these changes. While a soldier v. engineer discussion can use that, since the engineer is an appropriate nemesis prof, I don't like the idea of saying that adventurers are impossible for a soldier already, so who cares what happens?
    Last edited by avo345; Jan 14th, 2010 at 14:57:55.
    Paratrooper (aka tarapooper/P-Rex) -> 220/30/70 Soldier

    Satyavati -> 150/7/39 Adventurer

    Politie -> 208/20/57 Bureaucrat

  16. #136
    At what point did anyone ever mention coon will be moved back to how it worked before? The change is the PvP and PvM damage will be calculated differently, so in the end the coon doesn't break in one shot and the person underneath the coon cannot be hit for 30% of their HP. Since this absorb mechanic and reflect mechanic are inexorably linked, that means you can't do PvP caps on soldiers under AMS. The changes are not being reverted back to before the "absorb nerf" because it was ridiculous overpowered. While reflects weren't ridiculously overpowered, changing absorb calcs apparently changes reflect calcs - and I daresay between new weaponry and the Ofab back soldiers have adjusted just fine.

    The other huge change to absorbs is there will be a hardcap on them, which means you will still be doing damage to someone with coon up.
    Last edited by Berinda; Jan 14th, 2010 at 15:57:00.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatech View Post
    Berinda: This just in: If they remove being able to do capped hits on absorbs, then it will no longer be possible to cap soldiers through mirror shields.

    So have they forgotten about lowhp NTs?
    Adding a minimum health requirement could stop that along with other viable solutions. Before anymore worries about adventurers, FC will probably hit their defenses quite hard, or at least allow everyone else to do so.


    Any idea what the hardcap on reflects would be?

  18. #138
    I don't have any official numbers, but my personal opinion is anything below 90% would be dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Berinda View Post
    I don't have any official numbers, but my personal opinion is anything below 90% would be dumb.
    90% should be more than reasonable. Soldiers are the master of reflects, after all.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by avo345 View Post
    Are we really comparing the ability to blow through a 10K coon with 1 FA to reducing damage under AMS?

    Let's compare:

    Changing coon back to what it was means that it will take (against a prof like an advy @ current HP), something like 2.5 FAs to burn through it, assuming you land enough bullets each time. On an enf, if they end up reducing their HP enough, it'll take 1-2.

    Taking damage under AMS at the moment, even assuming your opponent is using FA (so 15K cap) and only 87% reflect, results in: 1950 damage taken. If THAT change is rolled back, so that reflects apply after the cap, then, assuming 23K hp (a solid average between soli and trox SMG/AR setups), you take: 897 damage.


    Assuming I did all these calculations correctly (if I've interpreted the changes correctly...I've only been playing for 2+ years, so I'm not entirely familiar with the systems in place before then), then soldiers avoid 6K damage over the life of an AMS from FA. Of course, there's only one prof that's using a 11s capped FA consistently in PVP....any guesses? Even adding in how other damage would be affected by this, say you avoid 10K damage (FA+burst+perks). Right now, with AMS the way it is, that barely makes a difference. Not many professions attack you under AMS, and even fewer can truly reduce your HP. Between battle prepared kits, stims, perks, and HD, the only professions that really take a decent amount of HP out are shades/MA. And neither profession really bothers doing anything to AMS right NOW, why would they after the changes?

    Now, let's look back at coon again. Coon is a little bit different in its application than AMS. All the professions that have access to it have at least moderate self healing abilities, bar engies. Let's ignore engies at the moment, since we're in the soldier forum and a loss to an engineer is expected. So, that leaves advies, enforcers, and keepers. Now, you may ask, why is coon not the same as AMS? After all, both abilities give significant damage mitigation abilities over a short period of time. The difference is the healing ability. When soldiers' AMS run out, they have 40 seconds of defenselessness. That means that professions who are waiting out the AMS know they have 40 seconds to take down the soldier with out any worry that their damage would be for naught. A good soldier can survive a couple AMS downtimes, especially against a profession like a keeper or enforcer, but not against professions like MAs/shades/(good) adventurers, etc.

    Meanwhile, against coon, from the viewpoint of a soldier, you MUST burn through the coon in order to damage the character using it. Why? Because if you simply try to ignore coon, much like other professions ignore AMS, then you not only give the opponent the 30 seconds to heal up, but they also retain their healing abilities once it has run out. They are NOT left defenseless. Could you imagine just spotting enforcers 30 seconds right now? You'd have no chance. Leaving an adventurer 30 seconds while not damaging them is laughable. An adventurer is a tough fight as it is; give them 30 seconds of free time and you might as well alt+f4. If you're not able to get through coon in a reasonable amount of time and cause at least a little damage, you're in trouble. Changing coon to take into account the 30% cap means, as outlined above, that advies could take 2-3 10+ bullet FAs, keepers could take 2 or so, and enforcers, depending on their HP situation, could take anywhere from .5-1.5 (who knows how their HP will end up after this rebalance). Enforcers may not end up being THAT much different for a soldier, but there is the potential. The simple fact of the matter remains, though, that it will definitely make a significant difference against keepers and adventurers - one that might make keepers a much more difficult fight than they are at the moment (not a bad thing) and totally destroy our already slim chances against an adventurer (a very bad thing). Not the greatest news to a profession that already has, in my opinion, few 'easy' fights in BS without AS.

    With coon being the different animal that it is, compared to AMS, there's no way you can compare coon changes to reflect changes. Although it is obviously difficult to imagine how the AAO/AAD and healing systems will work once all the changes have gone through, we can only speculate from the current state of things, and going back to the old ways will result in further disadvantages for soldiers - the only profession in the game that relies on a short term defense followed by COMPLETE lack of defense (hell, you even get 10s of 0% reflect if you're truly unlucky).

    As for all those who say, "Well, you already can't kill an adventurer/engi, enfos are already close, and keepers meh," keep in mind: this rebalancing act is not about keeping the status quo. ESPECIALLY, using an argument like "well, you can't kill xxx prof anyway" is not a good way to go about these changes. While a soldier v. engineer discussion can use that, since the engineer is an appropriate nemesis prof, I don't like the idea of saying that adventurers are impossible for a soldier already, so who cares what happens?
    agree with all , and also u forgot to mention all NM and their 5k coon .. . and shade's coon

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