Rebalancing - Keeper's future - Discussion

[haavarst]

heh ok then from TL5 soldier point of view keepers are redicolus. Complete useless sack of meat. Loads of HP makes FA just even more effective. Fun to kill, but hurt innside when I see what TL5 keeper twinks go trough to be less then average.

TL5 doc view - takes a bit more time, but they have no alphapower soo....

TL7 fixer - snare keepers and let them tumble around on their own until docs and other profession are down. They are no treath to anyone.

TL7 crat same as fixers

TL7 solitus keeper - Only met one decent keeper last year and he was solitus.

Keepers WAS a defensive profession, but even Means called it GODMODE! And our defence are good as it stands today, and again I point at Kintaii and ask: You want to give us more? We dont have problems with defence, we have problem with offence! We dont want to be a godmode stick again tanking 10 other professions. Thats just as giving us another reason to ignore us for the next 5 years as we are seen as godmode profession, again!

And NoGoal, this is what the rest of us has been discussing for a while. Where have you been?

[haavarst]

Def perks: AoR, Blessing, HM, BioS, SD. 5
Off perks: Reaver, SS. 2

Def buffs: Ambient/Tone line, Courage aura, Ward/Imminence/Barrier line, Enervate, evades, parry. 9
Off buffs: 2he, Fast Attack, Imminence, riposte, procs, vengeance. 7

Def procs: 12
Off procs: 0

26 > 9

If you really think keepers have the worse def you should play other professions a bit more .. or take a small break from AO.

Wow impressive. And when was the last time you perked AoR, Blessing, HM, Bio and SD all at once?

When was the last time you had both Ambient and Tone running at the same time?

Maby you should learn to read? I said if keepers are defensive profession it`s the worst def profession inn game.

Professions inn this school are:
Fixer
Crat
Traders
Shield MP
Adv
Keeper?

Now, tell me what profession mentioned above has worse defence then Keepers?

[NoGoal]

All but advs? And none of them can kill me if I don't let them so I guess it must be that their offense suck too!

[haavarst]

All but advs? And none of them can kill me if I don't let them so I guess it must be that their offense suck too!

Not all keepers are Atrox (edit: yet), wake up!

[NoGoal]

AR isn't the only form of offense .. You didn't even list docs as a defensive professions.

A trader who didn't drain his target is just alpha food, fixers and crats are quickly killed by nukes and shield MPs are just lol.

Keepers on the other end can defend themselves against all kind of offense.

[haavarst]

AR isn't the only form of offense .. You didn't even list docs as a defensive professions.

A trader who didn't drain his target is just alpha food, fixers and crats are quickly killed by nukes and shield MPs are just lol.

Emote: /faceplant

This is keeper forum. Are we suddenly discussing Fixers vs NT to justify keepers terrible offense? Listen NoGoal, you must be some hardass keeper, can you teach us how to nuke fixers?

Solper

And nope, we can`t handle capping hits for long. Our toolset gets worn out after a while becouse of the long downtimes.

bah whatever. Good luck.

[NoGoal]

And no, we dont want a defensive playstyle

Just in case as it seems you forgot what you were talking about.

[haavarst]

Just in case as it seems you forgot what you were talking about.

Why do I even bother. I know what you want with the profession. Its nothing close to what majority wants. For those that didnt read it I post it again.

Originally Posted by NoGoal
Hello Keepers,

I don't think I have to introduce myself to you as I've been active in our forums for the last 5 years. 5 years which my keeper remained my main despite the recent fall-down. I must admit that I didn't play my keeper much lately tho but instead of quitting or complaining I tried to propose solutions and spent some time on other professions. That time spent allowed me to gather more game knowledge and get a bigger picture of it.

As for my goals (no pun intended), if I'm elected as keeper professional, I'm not looking to get keepers balanced or put them back up to the top of the PvP ladder. I just want keepers to be fun and more useful to teams in PvP. For example, I like the proposed Reaver changes even if it will reduce our already weak alpha. The shorter recharge on perks will make them up more often and their lower damage might get us new sources of damage. That's what I would work for at least. Oh and Flying ninja keepers ofc.

[Hacre]

That campaign speech was why I voted for Righteous. Nothing personal NoGoal, but the main difference between when Keepers were good and now, is impotent offence. Our defences for the most part, are fine. They feel crap because we can kill very little, so by the time all those defences are out against some people or in some situations, we're still standing around waiting for perks to come back up, still trying to kill the same target, watching the damage get mitigated again or frustrated as the next round of perks sinks into another cocoon or just don't fire due to being unable to perk. However you seem to have no problem with our offence being lowered yet again, in favour of some fancy parlour tricks.

Now we're looking at another weapon line, god knows what the perk support for it is going to be like, I imagine just as crappy as Reaver is going to be, worse, or, it'll actually be better and the 2he Keeper will disappear overnight. Not only that but if we want full symbiant support for Melee Energy, we've got to ditch the Support brain. Urgh.

While it's nice to bring support and stuff to the battlefield, at the end of the day, if you can't kill, you're missing out on something and you're left standing around empowering others to do the killing. If I wanted to just do that, I'd roll a Doctor.

[NoGoal]

the main difference between when Keepers were good and now, is impotent offence.

This is not true. Our offense always sucked. Players found it fine because they could alpha pretty much everyone with 2 perks. To me it always seemed bad and boooooring.

Our defences for the most part, are fine.

I'm the first one to say it and always complained to other keepers when they said they wanted more defense. Just check all the past suggestions, they are almost always about def more than off.

Now yes they are fine it's true but offer very little versatility. I don't want a better overall def but I want options. I'm sick of the cookie cutter perks and auras. I also want more buttons to press. All this wouldn't have been possible with the current reaver. It would be make us way too good (every 2 mins). Also, keep in mind that defensive abilities can help your offense at the same time.

Anyway, I was too stupid and shouldn't have answered to haavarst. Nothing productive or even keeperish in all he said. Quite funny I was like his god when I first posted but suddenly now I don't know anything about keepers..

[Hacre]

This is not true. Our offense always sucked. Players found it fine because they could alpha pretty much everyone with 2 perks. To me it always seemed bad and boooooring.

Of course it's true. You even point it out with your next line. "They could alpha pretty much everyone with 2 perks". Thus, implying, our offence wasn't always impotent. Now it is. I wasn't arguing the merits of the design, rather how our offensive capabilities have changed, or rather, stagnated. I've given you several suggestions for having more buttons to press, such as collapsing a couple of our defensive lines as well as collapsing current Reaver as is, into Street Samurai and not having Reaver on our group tab anymore.

From the information we've been given, our biggest problem is going to get worse and our second biggest problem isn't getting any better. That being, our offensive capability is going to get worse (Reaver nerf) and we still only have 40 SL perks while ideally we could use 50-60.

Not to mention we still don't have any details on how the new Curing Touch will perform compared to current and current has lost a lot of punch since all the new HP flew around and ranged AR went through the roof.

[NoGoal]

I could argue that our offense isn't impotent now either but w/e.

I think that you didn'tget that we are at the 'ideas and suggestions' stage. Numbers and real balancing will only happen when the beta server will be up. It's impossible to state anything about balance right now as a lot of stuff will be changed. But stating that keepers don't want to be a defensive profession was just non sense.

[Hacre]

I could argue that our offense isn't impotent now either but w/e.

Then please do. If I/we are wrong then please point out how/why if you know better or have a different perspective. Apathy doesn't fit well into your new "job". It's hard to discuss things with our representatives (ie, you) if your views aren't put forward or posts can be summed up with a shrug of the shoulders, or claiming any discussion is pointless before we see a beta server.

It's not pointless. We have proposals from Funcom that we can discuss. Getting those discussions back to Funcom saves time when the beta server appears. I know I for one will be annoyed should the beta server arrive and everything that's been said on the boards since the proposals were made, hasn't been taken into account and what we have on the beta server is a playable version of the proposals that we've all discussed or rebutted.

[NoGoal]

There's just no point to talk about how reaver was or is. So let's discuss how we want it and other stuff to be instead of how keepers and FC suck.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

haarvarst seem a bit emo atm, but, I think I understand his beef: keeper offense suck atm.

His perception: nogoal has not established how he plans to convince the devs that we might need more offence.


I have read the discussions.

I know of at least 4 ways off the top of my head which the devs have stated will be looked at, or that the professionals are touting as necessity changes to our toolset: All of these will provide keepers with more offense. ALL 4 I like, but, I like the first more than the others:

1. fast attack special for keepers gains multipliers (@1k skill, 2 FA's, @2k skill 3 FA's)
2. riposte will provide another attack, which should be an instantaneous special, opening on (a random missed hit?)
3. alligning transfix recharge with cleave (for a 30s recharge)
4. Wrath/Fury will become a stronger special (which ffs, lets get going on I really want it to be comparable at LEAST to the omni special)

So, there you have it. at LEAST 4 ways in which the keeper profession should be getting slightly more offence.

And, bump to the professionals! nogoal, nice work on not getting worked up with a verbal onslaught.

[NoGoal]

I don't need to convince devs, they already know that we lack offense. But they are careful about not overpowering us. Don't forget a lot of professions will get their defenses nerfed too.

I'm surprised that not many keepers talked about LE and SL procs or even research. My first complain about LE was that we didn't get any offensive procs. (Don't reply with add dmg ones..)

[Hacre]

I don't need to convince devs, they already know that we lack offense. But they are careful about not overpowering us. Don't forget a lot of professions will get their defenses nerfed too.

I'm surprised that not many keepers talked about LE and SL procs or even research. My first complain about LE was that we didn't get any offensive procs. (Don't reply with add dmg ones..)

I haven't commented on procs because I hate the entire proc design. We're slightly luckier than my NT since NTs have to rely on being hit for their procs to fire. Which sucks even more.

However, I wouldn't give up my reflect proc and evade procs (or damage proc when PvMing in a group) for anything other than controllable real tools that procs should have been in the first place.

It's in my opinion that the damage on Sanctifier/Reaper shouldn't be halved in PvP, or should be doubled across the board in PvM, whichever is easiest to accomplish, assuming the latter. Everything that's nice about Keepers in PvM ends up fubared in PvP due to the different rule set. Sanc/Reaper suddenly sucks, heal aura is suddenly a forgotten occasional first aid stim, we need more of our perk lines for PvP than we do for PvM, etc.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You wanna know when life sux as a keep?

when you got a enf alt, and you pop a tear ligaments proc.

keeper offensive proc do add 25 dmg.

enf offensive proc do 170 AAO and like 75 add dmg.

wtf srsly. rage/emo/srslyqtting/fkkkkk/thsgamesux.

you know what is a huge problem for keepers too?

keeper get a big friggin sharp object jammed in a sensitive spot because we are overreliant on our procs, (which are sub par), and we have only half as many attacks for the procs to fire on.

When I'm in a fight with a DOF'er for the first 40 seconds of a fight, it's really easy to make a proc fire. /sarcasm off pff.

If i hit 5 times I'm feeling uber. except I'm at half HP and no procs fired, and even if they did they could friggin save me. BS!

[Hacre]

Alright McKnuck, we get it, Keepers suck at TL5. Enough already. It's going to be a job and a half getting them right at 220/30/70, if that even happens, before even considering looking at the metagaming that is non end game twinking.

[NoGoal]

I haven't commented on procs because I hate the entire proc design.(..)
However, I wouldn't give up my reflect proc and evade procs (or damage proc when PvMing in a group) for anything other than controllable real tools that procs should have been in the first place.

Proc system is likely to be changed. The 10 min duration on the 4% reflect proc is probably an error like how our dmg procs used to be. I'd rather have a small duration but high reflect on that one, like devotional armor.