The don't merge SA/FA/AS timer thread

[Xootch]

I know i know, ya'll probably disagree. But to my mind the problem of fast, multiple, capping specials only extends to tl7 - and only because they gave us far too powerful guns.

who was moaning about the craphander? only the fixers who had to use it. who what moaning about booster agents? only the agents who had to use the crappy gun. i am even okay with 1 handed melee profs using as as a finisher - as it has a long equip delay and a horrible recharge.

nobody should use multiple, fast recycling, capping specials - agreed. but if agents use all three of them, they have to gimp themselves severely, with a lousy fa recharge. an even clearer picture is drawn at tl5 where you don't have acess to all the new tl7 superweapons. it's hard to use as there as you have crappy weapons and need a decent amount of as to actually hurt someone there. nobody moans about the specials there...the killers are nts with their insane damage that compares to a free multiple fast special abuse that you want to shut down with the new changes.

i say:

-allow people to use as/fa - why not if fa has a recharge of ~2 min. beautifully seen on fixers: some even prefer blackbird/craphander combo over hawk/craphander. (tl5)
-allow as/fa/sa if people have to gimp their chars to nothing else
-ao always was about twinking and thinking. swapping, pushing for another usable special, abusing a gun to gain a special - all that is the very part of ao that makes ao fun.

it's not about using specials, it's about the conditions that come with them, the sacrifices you have to make - and you should rather influence those than just forbid the pure possibility. by implementing well thought through ideas for equip and guns - not the ah-just-give-a-super-boost-everything stuff that we had to endure the last 300 patches.

you may flame, you may disagree, try to keep it either factual or entertaining

[Ninewood]

my thoughts exactly.

[Lupusceleri]

Yup agreed. If you're being hit hard by a Onehander or Piercing Evil, the obvious solution is getting additional CriticalDecrease.

Only thing that should be stopped is the "free" 30% cap that the Supernova gives. Again, an easy suggestion for a fix: nerf the weapon, not the game mechanic. For example give it a 10s EquipTime and lower MaxDamage stat. This obviously counts for all high max damage AS weapons, that are only used in hotswaps.

For the rest I think the already incoming AS nerf will take care of the biggest issues.

[schloops]

I do think that someone that sacrifices a lot of ips to be able to swap and does good swap moves should do more dmg than someone just bleh pressing it's two specials. I also think that that possibility is really what ao is about.

I'm also all for melee toons being able to swap to a ranged weapon for a special.

I do get that the underlying problem is that done well, it tends to completely alpha a lot of opponents and so needs to be kept in check... but just removing it is meh.

As someone said, it is vital though, that sacrifices have to be made to gain that possibility. And I don't mean less np ^^.

As for the remark about nts, well, you are just low on perspective.

To summon this: bump + flame =p.

[Avari]

TL7:
Wouldn't it be nice not to have to invest in seven different specials to be viable in PvP? Let's see where this takes us. With an adjustment to heals incoming, I'm betting the specials won't be as sorely missed. The thing about PvP is that just about everyone says it doesn't work, but a lot of the same people are the first to oppose changes.

Sub-TL7:
Level lock some of the buffs meant for the later game, so you don't need an all-powerful alpha to kill someone with a twinked NCU.

[Hacre]

Sub-TL7:
Level lock some of the buffs meant for the later game, so you don't need an all-powerful alpha to kill someone with a twinked NCU.

The TL ranges where "twinked" NCU makes any sort of difference, require no swapping for an alpha since specials like burst and fling will cap a toon, as will Kizzers.

[Avari]

The TL ranges where "twinked" NCU makes any sort of difference, require no swapping for an alpha since specials like burst and fling will cap a toon, as will Kizzers.

You're right ofcourse.

My point was that this change has to be seen in a context and not isolated. It doesn't have to be an outright nerf, if it's followed by something else.

[Armus]

TL7:
Wouldn't it be nice not to have to invest in seven different specials to be viable in PvP? Let's see where this takes us. With an adjustment to heals incoming, I'm betting the specials won't be as sorely missed. The thing about PvP is that just about everyone says it doesn't work, but a lot of the same people are the first to oppose changes.

Sub-TL7:
Level lock some of the buffs meant for the later game, so you don't need an all-powerful alpha to kill someone with a twinked NCU.

Did you consider exactly how much heals must be nerfed for someone to OD doc heals? especially considering UBT and that procs. It would have to be something extreme.

Advies have a good chance of coming out as number one again with nothing even close, again, because they will still have their uber dmg mitigation through evades and coon while not having to face as many specials.

[Gatester]

If we keep AS, FA, and SA as they are now we will be denied any improvements to the rest of our toolsets (perk damage, pet effectiveness, nukes, weapon damage, special reliability). Once the "I R max AS+SA/FA and alpha 60% of everyones health" is gone for good we can expand individual toolsets to be fair in pvp again.

Plain and simple we lack variety because of overly effective weapon and hotswap combinations and they have to go before the game can be balanced.


I would also like to point out that Noobius adventurer comment is a bit short sighted. Advy may have decent evades and damage mitigation, but they do not have good nano resist. Without AS holding most of the professions back, and looking at the changes we have already begun to see in perk documentation, many professions will have highly increased effectiveness against professions with lower Nano Resist. If you think a healing nerf means little to adventurers, as well as these lockouts, you should try playing an advy without using them.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Agreed.

Don't merge SA/FA/AS timer.

Merge SA/FA/SA/Dimach.

[agentwolve]

Agreed.

Don't merge SA/FA/AS timer.

Merge SA/FA/SA/Dimach.

indeed that would be some extreme love for engis 1v1

[Darkkblood]

If we keep AS, FA, and SA as they are now we will be denied any improvements to the rest of our toolsets (perk damage, pet effectiveness, nukes, weapon damage, special reliability). Once the "I R max AS+SA/FA and alpha 60% of everyones health" is gone for good we can expand individual toolsets to be fair in pvp again.

Plain and simple we lack variety because of overly effective weapon and hotswap combinations and they have to go before the game can be balanced.


I would also like to point out that Noobius adventurer comment is a bit short sighted. Advy may have decent evades and damage mitigation, but they do not have good nano resist. Without AS holding most of the professions back, and looking at the changes we have already begun to see in perk documentation, many professions will have highly increased effectiveness against professions with lower Nano Resist. If you think a healing nerf means little to adventurers, as well as these lockouts, you should try playing an advy without using them.

this is why it needs to be done. I agree with the first post kind of but this is the reason the specials need to have merged timers.

[Xootch]

listen to you guys. you sound like very one uses fa/as/sa in tl7 and not just that...everyone does it with a snap of a finger. that's just wrong.


@gatester: let's have a look at what you wrote.

If we keep AS, FA, and SA as they are now we will be denied any improvements to the rest of our toolsets (perk damage, pet effectiveness, nukes, weapon damage, special reliability). Once the "I R max AS+SA/FA and alpha 60% of everyones health" is gone for good we can expand individual toolsets to be fair in pvp again.

so first of all. who can use multiple specials these days...maybe advys, soljas, agents, fixers? k. who has nukes and pets? exactly. not them. and please explain to me why perk damage i.e. bigger buttons you already have for anyone is a good alternative to the possibility to use different specials? heck even an alternative at all? ...and special reliability? i hope you don't mean that whatever special you pick...fa, as or sa, always caps for you? now i think that would just be wrong. i like it that you have to work to use a special and to work even more to actually make it work, but that it is impossible to make a special ALWAYS cap, esp if your prof wasn't meant for the special. heck, and if you bend your char layout real bad, why not not use 2 specials? but okay. if you say gimme one that always caps no matter what, gimme bigger damage without actually doing anything, without twinking my char into a direction...if that makes the game more interesting to you...good for you. things will go your way. probably. good for you.

edit: ah. iamahugetroll: go blah somewhere else. you're not welcome here. why? i said keep it factual or entertaining. since you cannot (nor ever could) any of that...make up your merge fa/as/sa/dimach/burst/brawl/fling/fa thread somewhere else.

[Bigbluebear]

I know i know, ya'll probably disagree. But to my mind the problem of fast, multiple, capping specials only extends to tl7 - and only because they gave us far too powerful guns.

who was moaning about the craphander? only the fixers who had to use it. who what moaning about booster agents? only the agents who had to use the crappy gun. i am even okay with 1 handed melee profs using as as a finisher - as it has a long equip delay and a horrible recharge.

nobody should use multiple, fast recycling, capping specials - agreed. but if agents use all three of them, they have to gimp themselves severely, with a lousy fa recharge. an even clearer picture is drawn at tl5 where you don't have acess to all the new tl7 superweapons. it's hard to use as there as you have crappy weapons and need a decent amount of as to actually hurt someone there. nobody moans about the specials there...the killers are nts with their insane damage that compares to a free multiple fast special abuse that you want to shut down with the new changes.

i say:

-allow people to use as/fa - why not if fa has a recharge of ~2 min. beautifully seen on fixers: some even prefer blackbird/craphander combo over hawk/craphander. (tl5)
-allow as/fa/sa if people have to gimp their chars to nothing else
-ao always was about twinking and thinking. swapping, pushing for another usable special, abusing a gun to gain a special - all that is the very part of ao that makes ao fun.

it's not about using specials, it's about the conditions that come with them, the sacrifices you have to make - and you should rather influence those than just forbid the pure possibility. by implementing well thought through ideas for equip and guns - not the ah-just-give-a-super-boost-everything stuff that we had to endure the last 300 patches.

you may flame, you may disagree, try to keep it either factual or entertaining

Imo they are merging AS/FA/SA/ETC... just to make PvP more PvMplaystyle/noob friendly, as it is the BS is the main way of getting VP, alot of PvMbears who are anti-PvP may be swayed to start PvPing in the BS to get their VP other than cry on the forums about lack of alternative ways to gain VP.

Also making it noob friendly due to the age of this game and the PvP mechanics as they are now may deter some people from possibly subscribing due to the fact they enjoy pvp in any other game, but cant grasp it in AO.
{Removed by Venachar: Don't ever post that again} otherwise this downgrade will cause alot more people to unsubscribe than the latter.

[IHaveHugeNick]

indeed that would be some extreme love for engis 1v1

Yeah because everyone is so eager to waste 30 minute special into blockers. Brilliant.

[Notcrattey]

This game's pvp is based waaay too much on specials, this is a good change.

[Cyberleet]

There should be some other solution yeah, since this creates diversity. The problem is designing all classes to work adequately in practice based on their design, cause obviously, these things + hotswap must be taken into balance-considerations.

This game's pvp is based waaay too much on specials, this is a good change.

Whats wrong, active fighting? You want us to just hit Q and let the servers do the rest?

[Fizzeh]

I would have to say keep brawl dimach and fast attack out of the merge. Then put as, fa and as on a merg if on ranged weps. Then merge sa and as. This will be a minimum change , but a good effect. It will nerf, agents for sa and as, soldiers for fa, and fixers for as.
Fixers; don't you whine about these changes, it shouldn't come to the point where ur perks do a load of dmg, and yet you have 4 capping specials, with loads of def and ar.

I think agents as should be left alone.

Make Fa recharge on soldiers longer or make ams a longer cast time.

For fixers, take away As, as their db nanos allow for to much ar and fa.

[Mekh]

Whats wrong, active fighting? You want us to just hit Q and let the servers do the rest?

What is wrong, is that people have a gazillion different ways to fight eachother, but it's all completely useless when each of the ways takes a second or more to activate.... and you can get killed in under a few seconds.

Then all those wonderfull varied and diverse tools are rendered useless.

If insta-ganks is your preferred game, then you should try out FPS games... They are just that.

I stopped playing those many years ago, as they got pretty dasm boring.

[Fizzeh]

I would have to say keep brawl dimach and fast attack out of the merge. Then put as, fa and as on a merg if on ranged weps. Then merge sa and as. This will be a minimum change , but a good effect. It will nerf, agents for sa and as, soldiers for fa, and fixers for as.
Fixers; don't you whine about these changes, it shouldn't come to the point where ur perks do a load of dmg, and yet you have 4 capping specials, with loads of def and ar.

I think agents as should be left alone.

Make Fa recharge on soldiers longer or make ams a longer cast time.

For fixers, take away As, as their db nanos allow for to much ar and fa.